Northern Ticket Machine Update Issues

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Jozhua, 14 Jul 2019.

  1. northernman

    northernman Member

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    There is currently a restriction in Rail Settlement Plan that prevents us from vending rangers and rovers on TVMs. However I recognise that often its the best product, therefore we are exploring our options for including rangers and rovers in a future release, at this moment in time I do not have a timescale
    Sorry to hear that you are having problems, please feel free to message me with where you struggled and I'll see if I can help
     
  2. northernman

    northernman Member

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    We have a few machines where the top 10 products/destinations are not quote how we want them, its work in progress.

    The same for popular destinations, which is why Navigation Rd thinks Leeds is a popular destination, we are on with fixing that.

    Cuddington is due for upgrade this week. I will look into the Metrolink query
     
  3. northernman

    northernman Member

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    Hi apologies for that, I have checked and Brighouse is up and working. There is nothing in the plan for a second machine there, however we have not completed roll out so I will check with the project team. I'm not familiar with that station, but we do have to consider access, comms and power routeing. But let me look at it.
     
  4. Muenchener

    Muenchener Member

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    Ian many thanks. Good to know that it is at least on your radar.
     
  5. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    I'm sorry, I just don't see why this is such a issue? I am not convinced in the least bit that bolting a shelf onto a TVM is really going to massively differences in user interaction time, compared to say offering a more streamlined user interface? And in time, more & more passengers will switch to e-ticketing solutions that reduce their need to use TVMs meaning that you really are solving a problem that is at best a minimal one.
     
  6. northernman

    northernman Member

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    Hi, you do not have to select a train, just a fare. But good feedback we will look at that. I have just tried it at that TVM and it works fine.
     
  7. northernman

    northernman Member

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    "shelfish".....I see what you did there :)

    I must be honest, I was not expecting shelves, hooks etc to come up as feedback. I have a concern about how we would fit that to the TVM design, and for it not to be an area that collects rubbish, copes with spills, and doesn't protrude and catch someone. However, its customer feedback, so I will give it some thought
     
  8. joke2711

    joke2711 Member

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    Thanks for that .. will try again tomorrow maybe
     
  9. 800002

    800002 Member

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    I can see the lawsuits being generated already!
    Personal injury resulting from bashing the protrouding shelf.

    Perhaps a handy set of 'attachment' 'holes' cut into the frame which can becut out - depending on local placement / design where the shelf could be affixed to? Although that may create more problems than it solves!
     
  10. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    On the question of location - most tickets are bought in the morning (which is presumably why many booking offices are just staffed for the early shift) so its seems sensible that TVMs should be sited to avoid morning sun shining directly onto the screen.

    Can you elaborate ? TVMs installed by other TOCs sell rover tickets and have done for some time.
     
  11. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Well I can foresee at least one small problem at my local station, the TVM is surrounded by it's own little canopy so installing a shelf is going to mean rebuilding it altogether. But if it means a coffee shelf for a station with no coffee retailer or vending machine for at least a mile in any direction.... ;)
     
  12. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    Shh, isn't the next phase coffee vending machines all round? 8-) Then come toilets on all stations. Dream on.
     
  13. 800002

    800002 Member

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    Front mounted? Only needs tobe 4 inches square for goodness sake! ;)
    That's probably why the local population may have oneof these...
    Travel mug.jpg
    Hehehe

    EDIT: to pour water onto the on the oilfire of my tongue in cheek post:- preferably at child headheight to teach the buggers to look where they're going!

    Ahh, that would be what the smell was! :D
     
    Last edited: 30 Jul 2019
  14. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Now if everyone had one of those, we wouldn't need shelves on TVMs.....
     
  15. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Their website says otherwise, only purchasable more than 15 minutes before travel:

     
  16. Dr Hoo

    Dr Hoo Established Member

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    Well at my local stations in the Peak District (definitely not coffee stall/kiosk territory) plenty of people get out of their cars or are dropped off whilst carrying re-usable insulated drinks containers (and then faff around with the ticket machine).

    Seriously, one of the keys to a successful project is actually observing real passengers interacting with machines in real life - not the development suite.

    Completely at random today I have seen two people struggling with dog leads at Hope, another person completely fail to be able to collect a pre-booked ticket for a complex cross-London journey and with reservations at a station in Essex (at least the machine was in a shelter) and three passengers struggling with an umbrella and getting soaked at a station on the Uckfield line.

    The general ‘vibe’ on the platform is one of stress and “why do the train people make things as difficult as possible”.

    This has got nothing to do with privatisation or fragmentation. In the 1980s I had the challenge of inheriting an appallingly specified and implemented ticket machine and station de-staffing project in British Rail days. It was a complete disaster and we ended up withdrawing the surviving machines (some having been burnt out, vandalised or even ripped out by heavy towing machinery), actually putting staff back at four of the stations, recruiting a new cadre of part-time assistant ticket examiners and finally confessing to the sponsoring PTE that their investment had been totally wasted on BR advice. I wrote the ‘lessons learned’ report, which was widely circulated at the time. Besides the many technical deficiencies of the machines this also included conclusions on ‘user reluctance’.

    I have never looked at a ticket machine in the same way as I did before that formative experience.
     
  17. takno

    takno Established Member

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    That's exactly how I was assuming everybody would be carrying their coffee anyway, and it still needs to be put down to buy a ticket without at least 30 seconds extra faffing. I imagine a disposable cup would be literally impossible
     
  18. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Well the guy from Northern has taken both your thoughts away, though don't be surprised if they don't commission some urgent coffee cup holder solution. I must confess the last time I had a drink-TVM situation, I used the human-Earth interface to facilitate the temporary storage of my liquid containing vessel. It seemed to work quite well, although acknowledging that some passengers may struggle to bend low enough I note that all TVMs can still be used quite adequately with one hand by many...

    Honestly I cannot for the life of me understand why this irks you so. How do you cope with other situations where two hands might be slightly more preferable but you can only use one due to carrying a drink?
     
  19. takno

    takno Established Member

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    I tend to put the cup down for a bit on a handy shelf
     
  20. Dr Hoo

    Dr Hoo Established Member

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    The last time I put a coffee cup down on Mother Earth at a frustratingly shelfless station another passenger kicked it over.
     
  21. Grumpy

    Grumpy Member

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    I have no issues with the machines myself, and appreciate the facilities they offer. However I’m a fairly regular user. The problem is that there is only one machine at my local station (unstaffed) and queues build up when irregular passengers have to work out how to use the machine. As the train arrival time draws near with the queue hardly moving there is a lot of anger and anguish around with much criticism of the system, especially with the fear engendered by the threat of penalty fares. From comments I’ve heard I believe they are actually deterring some passengers from using rail.

    Installing a second machine would ease matters, but I appreciate there is a cost to this. It would surely be a cheap aid if some posters were displayed demonstrating how the machines should be used-for example where people are queuing to use the machine-so it would not be so daunting when they reach the front of the queue. It would also be helpful if the itinerant ticket inspecting gangs were taught how to use the machines and instructed to help, rather than stand in the car park smoking.

    I also wonder if there is a place for a cheaper stripped down simple machine issuing perhaps one or two tickets-thus at my station I suspect that a machine just selling returns to Leeds would deal with 80% of the passengers.
     
  22. NorthernSpirit

    NorthernSpirit On Moderation

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    I can't seem to Private Message you.

    When I'm attempting to purchase tickets from the newly updated TVM at Brighouse for travel towards Trowbridge, Melksham or Westbury - it comes up with a message on screen stating that no tickets were found. Prior to the recent update to the TVM's I was able to purchase a return from Brighouse to the aformentioned stations above.

    Where I'm struggling is when I've selected Trowbridge [TRO], then select return on the machine and I go and try and purchase it - the machine just keeps on bring up a message that there were no tickets found. I have tried it around four times and on every single attempt the machine simply refused me the ticket, despite knowing the fare (£111.20 return TRO/WSB, £105 return for MKM) the machine wasn't having any of it.

    I'm having to, in the short term, obtain a Promise to Pay / Permit to Travel and explain the situation to the guard. To be honest, it'd be easier to staff* Brighouse as I wouldn't have to use the now unworkable TVM and instead ask the human behind the desk for my ticket, I didn't see anything wrong with the previous layout, as it was clear, easy-to-use, fast and importantly it worked! What Northern should do is temporarily roll back to the previous version and instead use that for the addtional on-screen extras such as MCard, as people will eventually refuse to use the machines and guards will start getting annoyed that passengers don't have a Permit to Travel simply because the TVM's have become so unreliable.

    * The installation of a Portakabin placed under the A641 road bridge wouldn't be too difficult, nor would connecting up a power supply to the nearby shelter to provide electrics for a ticket office.
     
  23. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    I always thought that the video link idea was a good one - a call centre should be much cheaper to run than lots of ticket offices.
    https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...w-ticket-machines.146049/page-21#post-3804016

    Does anyone know how South West are getting on with theirs?
    https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/how-to-get-your-ticket/virtual-ticket-office


    That's exactly the sort of thing that should be caught by automated testing!
     
  24. 800002

    800002 Member

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    In the words of Capt. Mainwaring: Ahh, yes. I was wondering who was going to be the first to spot that.
    It's an easy close up and squeeze between the knees jobbie ;)
     
  25. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    A fairly common failing I suspect. You imagine it's only you until hearing others having the same or similar issue.
     

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  26. takno

    takno Established Member

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    Sounds a bit extreme. I just use mine for coffee
     
  27. NorthernSpirit

    NorthernSpirit On Moderation

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    The funny thing is, the previous edition was brilliant in every way that you could get singles, returns and even promise to pay within seconds. Now its minutes.

    I'm suprised someone hasn't put their fist through the videowall screen on this machines yet, as I can imagine someone with a more complex journey than mine losing their rag as the machine refused to sell them their ticket.
     
  28. 800002

    800002 Member

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    Each to thier own! Haha
     
  29. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    It's enough to make one give up on paper tickets and use an app:s
     
  30. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    And if there isn't one, because the last time I looked many places you might interact with technology didn't have handy shelves for coffee, especially ones easily usable with one hand?? The point, again, is that the design of the Northern, and indeed many others does not lend itself to just popping a shelf on, is by no means any sort of priority, and just something we as humans will just have to figure out for ourselves, as we do in all sorts of situations. Even if they did decide to install such things, you'd doubtless have the problem of people using it to dump their empty cups onto, as well as any other crap they want to dump at the same time. So then there would come the great bin placement debate, followed by the great not enough bins to service the coffee cup shelf, and so on. It really, really isn't worth the cost & effort, all in my humble opinion of course. :D

    The beauty about the sealable, reusable cups is that they are both better for the environment and their more robust design means they can be placed in things like rucksack packets, bags, or even balanced on the floor.....

    Anyway I think TVM ShelfGate has been done to death now, its in Northern's hands so we will await the coming of the mythical coffee cup dumping ground, sorry shelf..... ;)
     

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