Northern ticket machine woes (hypothetical)

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by vidal, 9 Jan 2019.

  1. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I really don't understand what is difficult about having all ticket types on sale at TVMs, via a journey planner type UI if necessary.

    Other than that Northern are institutionally useless, I suppose.
     
  2. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    If there's no facilities to buy your ticket at your origin station because the kind of ticket you're after isn't sold, then Promise to Pay isn't the correct thing to get though some people at Northern think it's a necessity. You simply board and buy the ticket at your first opportunity.
     
  3. vidal

    vidal Member

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    My partner did that and offered to pay at the first opportunity. Was made to pay full fare. It's OK saying claim it back - what image are they giving to the fare paying public.

    James
     
  4. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    I would only pay the correct fare, not any additional fare.
     
  5. vidal

    vidal Member

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    That's fine in principle. However a day out in the company of the BTP wasn't what my partner and her sister really wanted. And what if the person refused to sell anything other than a non discounted ticket?

    James
     
  6. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Pay the correct fare, nothing more. You can't be detained if you give your name and address.
     
  7. vidal

    vidal Member

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    Sadly not everyone is as clued up on their rights when it comes to rail travel. It is complex enough with the multitude of ticket types available (but not able to be sold in this case), restrictions and routes allowed. Having to have a working knowledge of railway bye laws as well isn't my partner's idea of a nice day out.

    She went on a direct service, within the correct times for the fare she wanted to pay, attempted to buy the tickets but they weren't available.

    Staff seem to get it wrong at times. Is it too much to ask that a ticket machine will sell a requested ticket? Surely it is just a case of pushing a software update to the TVM?

    James
     
  8. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    If this wasn't absolutely ages ago it's definitely worth pursuing for a refund. I agree that the rail industry far too often treats its loyal customers with contempt, and in most other industries companies that did this would simply go out of business. Not in the cushy Government-sanctioned rail industry!
     
  9. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    With companies like TIL around (do Northern use them?) this is VERY poor advice. While you are in the right morally, a refusal to pay can end up leaving you with a sticky wicket which can be difficult to escape from.

    In most ticketing disputes, the most sensible course of action is to pay the sum requested under protest, insist on a proper receipt, and pursue a refund later.
     
  10. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Not really, in circumstances like this. You won't be on any sticky wicket if you have paid the correct fare at the first opportunity to pay it.

    The approach of paying a tortiously demanded sum first and then reclaiming it is appropriate in certain circumstances, most particularly where there is an issue onboard before your station is the next stop, and you don't want to delay your journey through any dispute. But if you have already reached your destination there is no value in it.

    If you have paid the correct fare at the first opportunity to do so then you do not need to provide your name and address either, and you would have quite the recourse if you were attempted to be detained for lawfully refusing to do so.
     
  11. vidal

    vidal Member

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    All of this is OK, and probably good advice. However in the real world my partner and her sister decided to have a girlie day out in Liverpool, catching the direct train so they could have a few drinks and lunch. Her sister lives abroad so time together was precious.

    Spending time arguing the rights and wrongs at the gate line wasn't on the agenda. It was about £10 difference in fares, so not the end of the world.

    Does anyone know if other TVMs sell Duo tickets?

    James
     
  12. island

    island Established Member

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    That’s only valid until the BTP get involved. They can require you to provide your name and address, detain you, and do several other things. Whilst one could eventually obtain recompense for all this, many people do not have the same appetite as you for conflict with the train companies, forcing them to accept you are right and they are wrong, and so on. At some point many normal passengers will decide that discretion is the better part of valour.
     
  13. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    In relation to ticketing, if they decide to involve themselves (which is something that can neither be reckoned with, or without), they do not have substantially greater powers than do railway staff.

    Perhaps, but the question was asked so there is the answer! I don't see any point in pretending that the only way forward is to comply with train companies' unlawful demands, and indeed the more people that become aware of the alternatives to doing so, perhaps the more likely that TOCs will face challenges and consider changing their behaviour,
     
  14. island

    island Established Member

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    This is quite wrong. Constables have considerably greater powers than railway staff, and can arrest anyone whom they reasonably suspect of being guilty of any offence, subject to section 24 of PACE.
     
  15. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Which, in practical terms, means, not a great deal. If you were arrested for refusing to give your name and address where you had no obligation to do so then it would be 'very interesting', to say the least, and solicitors could well be seeking to represent you.

    I'm out.
     
  16. island

    island Established Member

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    The arrest would be for boarding a train without a ticket, not failing to give name and address.

    Again, I remind you that most members of the public want to get on with their day with minimal hassle, not “stick it to the man” by knowing they are technically correct whilst sitting in the back of a police van.
     
  17. Josie

    Josie Member

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    This is just it. Armed with the knowledge that I'm allowed to buy my ticket on the train if it's the first opportunity, I'd gladly stand up for myself to do that. But the family member I was asking for in this case wouldn't - as far as he's concerned he turns up, pays the fare he's asked to pay and goes wherever he's going, because most people assume staff will have all the information and will sell them the best ticket. They wouldn't argue with a ticket seller and certainly not with the police, for the sake of a £3 difference which they don't necessarily understand themself anyway.
     

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