Northern timetable changes May 2019

[Glenn1969]

The DfT views Northern as a basket case hence 20 years of no growth franchises. In this case nationalisation is the LAST thing that should happen

 

[ashworth]

I've mixed feelings here. Whilst I can see the logic in speeding up Lincoln services by having a "local" train taking up the stations west of Worksop (not a massive priority but I can see accept that the current Lincoln service is tediously slow), having the Gainsborough services split between two stations (some distance apart) might cause a few problems as well as solving other.

Plus there's the issue that the forthcoming improvements to Doncaster - Lincoln (going hourly under EMR) will mean two trains per hour from Sheffield/ Retford to Gainsborough and two trains per hour from Gainsborough to Lincoln but (although the Sheffield - Central and Lee Road - Lincoln services share the same metals west of Gainsborough, they won't share any station.

(also, if any resources are found for regular services through Brigg to Grimsby etc at a time when plenty of other Northern services are regularly cancelled/ short-formed/ inadequately short then I reserve the right to scream about prioritising luxury services over essential bread'n'butter work!)

A city the of the size and importance of Lincoln, especially with its increased student population, does need faster and better services in all directions. That has been regularly discussed on numerous occasions. Journeys to anywhere in the north from Lincoln have not always easy due to the sparse service between Lincoln and Doncaster and the the very slow, previously pacer operated service to Sheffield. Now that Lincoln to Sheffield is getting new trains it probably does need to speed up and omit all those local stations between Worksop and Sheffield.

It was originally proposed to run extra Sheffield to Retford trains to address this situation but it has recently been decided to extend this to Gainsborough Central. How well used these trains will be used east of Retford is yet unknown. Perhaps that is not a priority in these times of DMU shortages.

Living in the Mansfield area, I know how much I will appreciate being able to reach Sheffield by train in just under 1hr 15 minutes with the improved connections at Worksop. For 20 years since the Robin Hood Line reopened in 1998, those of us from stations north of Nottingham, including Mansfield have had a near useless service to the north without having to first travel south via Nottingham. Waits of up to 50 minutes for a connection at Worksop has just made the journey to Sheffield not practical. I still drive mainly to Alfreton and get the train from there, but heavy traffic on the A38 and around the M1 often makes that journey difficult. Therefore I will certainly welcome the quicker journey opportunities of travelling north from stations on the Robin Hood Line. I still think the solution would have been better achieved by extending Robin Hood Line services to Sheffield with reversal at Worksop to provide Mansfield with a truly better access to and from the north.

 

[Kite159]

It was originally proposed to run extra Sheffield to Retford trains to address this situation but it has recently been decided to extend this to Gainsborough Central. How well used these trains will be used east of Retford is yet unknown. Perhaps that is not a priority in these times of DMU shortages.

Isn't the Gainsborough Central extension just a way to avoid having the unit sat in the loop outside Retford for ~ 45 minutes as was the original timetable?

I suspect the driver/guard will prefer the run to Gainsborough rather than sitting around in a loop.

It will be interesting to see the loadings after Retford

 

[darloscott]

Looks like the turn time at Retford would be ~55 min so they're using up half hour or so with the run to Gainsborough & back, not really costing anything other than a bit of fuel.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm surprised (unless there's a thread I've missed) to see no comments about the changes to the Calder Valley timings from May.

Most hours manage to have a half hour gap from Halifax to Bradford despite 4-5 trains an hour.

Sowerby Bridge has 2 trains an hour to Halifax and Bradford - in most hours these are 7 or 8 minutes apart.

I used to commute from Sowerby Bridge in the 90s when there were 2 trains an hour approximately half an hour apart. Spacings like that might have driven me to start driving.

 

[tbtc]

They're between a rock and a hard place though. They've committed to addressing the poor frequencies of services in the north and are filling their pockets with billions of pounds of taxpayers money on the promise of these better services. Improvements are continually delayed, local politicians are clamouring for heads to roll. Time has run out - the excuses aren't good enough any more. It's no one's fault but their own if they don't have enough trains or drivers. The improvements must happen. If Northern fail to deliver they must be stripped of the franchise and it be given to a public sector body who will actually deliver.

I don't think that *frequencies* in northern England are that bad (outside of the kind of rural areas where you wouldn't get a frequent service in any part of the UK) - the bigger problem is the train lengths.

Sadly we have a franchise (and politicians) who are more interested in how many places they can link together with hourly services (which means lots of short DMUs rather than simple/ sensible frequencies over each bit of line).

Great news for the handful of people doing (e.g.) Hebden Bridge to Wigan on a regular basis but it can mean awkward timings on routes like (e.g.) Hebden Bridge - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds, because we are trying to accommodate several long distance trains (generally only two or three carriages long) which means bad co-ordination and makes disruption more likely.

Still, the councillors in some places can claim that their town has been "put on the map" and has some exotic destinations, and isn't that the most important things?

A city the of the size and importance of Lincoln, especially with its increased student population, does need faster and better services in all directions

I don't think that Lincoln is *that* big, it just looks big due to there being nowhere else of much size anywhere around.

I agree with your subsequent point about the Robin Hood line though (I think that making the Sheffield - Worksop "stopper" run through to Mansfield/ Nottingham would be better than through to Gainsborough).

I'm surprised (unless there's a thread I've missed) to see no comments about the comments on the Calder Valley timings from May.

Most hours manage to have a half hour gap from Halifax to Bradford despite 4-5 trains an hour.

Sowerby Bridge has 2 trains an hour to Halifax and Bradford - in most hours these are 7 or 8 minutes apart.

I used to commute from Sowerby Bridge in the 90s when there were 2 trains an hour approximately half an hour apart. Spacings like that might have driven me to start driving.

I hadn't seen just how bad the "co-ordination" was, but sadly I'm not surprised - I know that there are a few other examples (e.g. Manchester Airport - Piccadilly, where NINE services per hour still have gaps of up to SEVENTEEN minutes).

I'd argue that a simple short distance journey like Halifax to Bradford ought to be a much bigger priority than the handful of people travelling from the Calder Valley to Manchester Airport/ Liverpool/ Southport/ Blackpool/ Hull/ York etc, but the need to fit in so many of these direct links means that trains will only be formed of short DMUs and will inevitably be badly co-ordinated (since all of these long distance routes are meshed together with "suboptimal" gaps).

 

[si404]

I don't think that *frequencies* in northern England are that bad (outside of the kind of rural areas where you wouldn't get a frequent service in any part of the UK) - the bigger problem is the train lengths.

Sadly we have a franchise (and politicians) who are more interested in how many places they can link together with hourly services (which means lots of short DMUs rather than simple/ sensible frequencies over each bit of line).

So what you are really saying is that frequency is the problem? I absolutely agree with you - service needs to be simplified.

1tph+1tph doesn't equal 2tph. As pointed out that 9*1tph on the Manchester Airport-Piccadilly route gives a gap larger than if there were 4tph (less than half the number of trains) running evenly.

 

[fireftrm]

Any news on the Northern service York-Scarborough?

 

[158756]

Sadly we have a franchise (and politicians) who are more interested in how many places they can link together with hourly services (which means lots of short DMUs rather than simple/ sensible frequencies over each bit of line).

Great news for the handful of people doing (e.g.) Hebden Bridge to Wigan on a regular basis but it can mean awkward timings on routes like (e.g.) Hebden Bridge - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds, because we are trying to accommodate several long distance trains (generally only two or three carriages long) which means bad co-ordination and makes disruption more likely.

Still, the councillors in some places can claim that their town has been "put on the map" and has some exotic destinations, and isn't that the most important things?

Leeds-Southport was conceived largely as an operational convenience, to conceal that Northern can't be bothered to pay for the proper number of trains and Victoria doesn't have the capacity for such extravagances as 1tph to Burnley or a service half as good as Metrolink on the Atherton line. It isn't at fault for the Halifax-Leeds problem anyway. Hebden Bridge-Bradford will always be awkward if you aim for an even interval service from Halifax because of the Brighouse trains.

Bradford Interchange currently has departures to Leeds at roughly

xx00 ex-Manchester
xx15 Preston - York
xx29 Manchester
xx41 Huddersfield

which I'd say was OK.

In May this becomes

xx00 Manchester
xx14 Blackpool - York
xx23 Chester
xx32 Huddersfield

The Victoria and Blackpool - York stay roughly the same. The problem with the Chester service isn't the path West of Manchester - it reaches Rochdale at practically the same time as the current equivalent service, but that the timings have just been switched from a 150 to 158 with allowances removed as well - there's nothing following it along the Calder Valley to stop them putting in a bunch more allowances or dwell time if they wanted.

Except, the real problem which is the Huddersfield train. It's current path out of Huddersfield is given to the new Castleford extension of the Huddersfield-Wakefield route. There appears to be a path to follow the Castleford train, but the short turnaround at Leeds won't allow it without an extra unit, which Northern won't pay for. You can't move one of the other trains to fill the gap because it'll clash with the Manchester - Leeds via Brighouse service which is basically set in stone to fit around TPE.

I hadn't seen just how bad the "co-ordination" was, but sadly I'm not surprised - I know that there are a few other examples (e.g. Manchester Airport - Piccadilly, where NINE services per hour still have gaps of up to SEVENTEEN minutes).

I know lots of people in here advocate a self contained airport shuttle, but given we can't find platforms for separate Leeds/Southport services and a number of improvements have already been cancelled or kicked into the long grass where do you propose to either cull existing frequencies or find new terminating platforms in Manchester?

 

[Glenn1969]

This leaves Bradford and Halifax to Huddersfield with a sub par journey time (34 mins from Halifax and up to 48mins from Bradford) which is slower from Bradford than the bus and may be slower than driving which does nothing to help Northern grow its numbers on this route (eastbound the journey is up to 14 minutes quicker)

I am still hoping the gap in the Halifax-Bradford and Bradford-Leeds pattern will be plugged by the 5th train (Nottingham-Bradford and Bradford-Airport) whenever that is able to start

 

[Deerfold]

This leaves Bradford and Halifax to Huddersfield with a sub par journey time (34 mins from Halifax and up to 48mins from Bradford) which is slower from Bradford than the bus and may be slower than driving which does nothing to help Northern grow its numbers on this route (eastbound the journey is up to 14 minutes quicker)

I am still hoping the gap in the Halifax-Bradford and Bradford-Leeds pattern will be plugged by the 5th train (Nottingham-Bradford and Bradford-Airport) whenever that is able to start

Is there any chance of that stopping at Sowerby Bridge to plug the 52/53 minute gap there?

 

[tbtc]

So what you are really saying is that frequency is the problem? I absolutely agree with you - service needs to be simplified.

1tph+1tph doesn't equal 2tph. As pointed out that 9*1tph on the Manchester Airport-Piccadilly route gives a gap larger than if there were 4tph (less than half the number of trains) running evenly.

I maybe wasn't explaining myself very well - I was referring to the idea that there are "poor frequencies" in the north - on most lines I'd suggest that trains are already frequent enough and that they are *too* frequent on some lines - especially given the additional services to come in the next couple of timetable changes (generally all short DMUs doing hourly services).

Using the Calder Valley as an example, instead of a simple fifteen minute service from Halifax - Bradford Interchange - Leeds, the obsession with long distance services (so that everywhere has a direct link to everywhere) we are going to have a messy combination of Blackpool/ Southport/ Liverpool/ Chester/ Manchester Airport to York/ Hull/ Nottingham which will mean a lot of (short) services per hour over the core section but also some big gaps.

You could run a much simpler set of services (e.g. one unit could shuttle the eighteen miles from Huddersfield to Bradford and back in an hour, so that can be taken off the messy combination of services through Pudsey) but nobody seems interested.

 

[yorksrob]

I maybe wasn't explaining myself very well - I was referring to the idea that there are "poor frequencies" in the north - on most lines I'd suggest that trains are already frequent enough and that they are *too* frequent on some lines - especially given the additional services to come in the next couple of timetable changes (generally all short DMUs doing hourly services).

Using the Calder Valley as an example, instead of a simple fifteen minute service from Halifax - Bradford Interchange - Leeds, the obsession with long distance services (so that everywhere has a direct link to everywhere) we are going to have a messy combination of Blackpool/ Southport/ Liverpool/ Chester/ Manchester Airport to York/ Hull/ Nottingham which will mean a lot of (short) services per hour over the core section but also some big gaps.

You could run a much simpler set of services (e.g. one unit could shuttle the eighteen miles from Huddersfield to Bradford and back in an hour, so that can be taken off the messy combination of services through Pudsey) but nobody seems interested.

My local station, in spite of being well used, muddles through with an hourly service throughout most of the day.

For urban areas, the standard should be half hourly throughout the day.

 

[Greybeard33]

I maybe wasn't explaining myself very well - I was referring to the idea that there are "poor frequencies" in the north - on most lines I'd suggest that trains are already frequent enough and that they are *too* frequent on some lines - especially given the additional services to come in the next couple of timetable changes (generally all short DMUs doing hourly services).

Using the Calder Valley as an example, instead of a simple fifteen minute service from Halifax - Bradford Interchange - Leeds, the obsession with long distance services (so that everywhere has a direct link to everywhere) we are going to have a messy combination of Blackpool/ Southport/ Liverpool/ Chester/ Manchester Airport to York/ Hull/ Nottingham which will mean a lot of (short) services per hour over the core section but also some big gaps.

You could run a much simpler set of services (e.g. one unit could shuttle the eighteen miles from Huddersfield to Bradford and back in an hour, so that can be taken off the messy combination of services through Pudsey) but nobody seems interested.

Regarding the western end of the Calder Valley, there are currently frequencies of 2tph from Manchester to Halifax/Bradford and 1tph to Brighouse. The Chester service is simply an extension of one of the two Bradford services that currently terminate at Victoria - it does not increase the frequency through the core. Likewise, the Airport service (in the unlikely event that Network Rail ever allows it a path through the Castlefield corridor) would likely be an extension of the other Vic - Bradford service (with the Bradford - Leeds section culled), which would give reasonable gaps from the two TPE services between Victoria and the Airport.

It can be inferred by comparing the Dec 2017 and Dec 2019 TSRs that the Liverpool - Bradford - Leeds Northern Connect will be an additional service through the Calder Valley core, likely filling in the big gap in the current timetable and providing 3tph between Manchester and Bradford. Is this really an excessive frequency between these two major Northern cities?

 

[Glenn1969]

The Liverpool service is the extension of the existing service. The Airport service will start from Bradford but interwork with the extended Bradford- Leeds- Nottingham service as far as I know

 

[Deerfold]

It can be inferred by comparing the Dec 2017 and Dec 2019 TSRs that the Liverpool - Bradford - Leeds Northern Connect will be an additional service through the Calder Valley core, likely filling in the big gap in the current timetable and providing 3tph between Manchester and Bradford. Is this really an excessive frequency between these two major Northern cities?

I don't think anyone's complaining about frequencies being too high per se, they're complaining about increased frequencies that actually result in big gaps for local passengers. Higher frequencies are great, but not if they're badly spaced.

I have 7 buses past my front door but at one point had 2 20 minute gaps an hour, so was not much better off than someone with 3 evenly spaced buses an hour.

 

[Glenn1969]

Sowerby Bridge does have 3tph. It is just that the third train goes to Leeds via Brighouse. Sowerby Bridge has annual pax of circa 400,000 so 3tph looks adequate. Halifax pax is nearly 2 million. I would say between Leeds-Bradford-Halifax there is a case for 5 or even 6tph but not all of them should stop at intermediate stations between Bradford, Halifax and Todmorden.

I also hope the Chester service gets good loadings in May

 

[alansheppard77]

Any news on the Northern service York-Scarborough?

hourly from May

 

[alansheppard77]

hourly from May

sorry my mistake thats the hull scarborough servive

 

[Greybeard33]

The Liverpool service is the extension of the existing service. The Airport service will start from Bradford but interwork with the extended Bradford- Leeds- Nottingham service as far as I know

Thank you for the correction. So, unless the timetable is recast in December, it looks as though the eastbound Northern Liverpool to Leeds will run over the Chat Moss line only a few minutes behind the TPE Liverpool to Scarborough.

In a more integrated railway system, those two services might be formed of compatible rolling stock such that they could be joined into a single longer train that split at Victoria.

 

[Deerfold]

Sowerby Bridge does have 3tph. It is just that the third train goes to Leeds via Brighouse. Sowerby Bridge has annual pax of circa 400,000 so 3tph looks adequate. Halifax pax is nearly 2 million. I would say between Leeds-Bradford-Halifax there is a case for 5 or even 6tph but not all of them should stop at intermediate stations between Bradford, Halifax and Todmorden.

I also hope the Chester service gets good loadings in May

I'm aware of the service at Sowerby Bridge. That's why I've not been complaining about the service to Leeds. For years Sowerby Bridge had two trains an hour to Leeds via Bradford. Then the 3rd via Brighouse was added. Then one of the originals disappeared for several years. I suspect that put some off commuting by train to Halifax or Bradford. They'd got a sensible service back and now it's being ruined again.

I regularly travel to Sowerby Bridge. However I often get the train to Halifax and then a bus or a lift. When travelling to Ripponden I'll get the bus from Halifax rather than Sowerby Bridge most of the time with this service.

 

[cle]

Sowerby Bridge does have 3tph. It is just that the third train goes to Leeds via Brighouse. Sowerby Bridge has annual pax of circa 400,000 so 3tph looks adequate. Halifax pax is nearly 2 million. I would say between Leeds-Bradford-Halifax there is a case for 5 or even 6tph but not all of them should stop at intermediate stations between Bradford, Halifax and Todmorden.

I also hope the Chester service gets good loadings in May

I would think a fastest category of service might work - say Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - Halifax - Leeds (avoiding Bradford) to give Halifax fast journeys to the two main cities on either end. Tod and Hebden are both about the same usage, but sub 1mn, so I think neither are essential for an additional tph.

Perhaps this one could be the one to extend to Chester, as I'd say Bradford and the other stations would prefer Airport and/or Liverpool services.

 

[Deerfold]

I would think a fastest category of service might work - say Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - Halifax - Leeds (avoiding Bradford) to give Halifax fast journeys to the two main cities on either end. Tod and Hebden are both about the same usage, but sub 1mn, so I think neither are essential for an additional tph.

Are you avoiding Bradford by going through Dewsbury? That's a very busy line.

Otherwise Bradford is hard to avoid (and avoiding Bradford is odd on journey from Manchester as Manchester had plenty of fast trains to Leeds and is the biggest place on the line).

 

[cle]

Ahh my bad, I thought there was an avoiding curve at Bradford. Was thinking of the service in terms of Halifax passengers' journeys, and the quickest possible Leeds-Chester timing.

 

[Deerfold]

Ahh my bad, I thought there was an avoiding curve at Bradford. Was thinking of the service in terms of Halifax passengers' journeys, and the quickest possible Leeds-Chester timing.

There was - until 40 or more years ago. The land it was on was built on 20-odd years ago.

However you're avoiding either the most popular or second most popular destination from Halifax (and the Calder Valley)

 

[northernchris]

The Victoria and Blackpool - York stay roughly the same. The problem with the Chester service isn't the path West of Manchester - it reaches Rochdale at practically the same time as the current equivalent service, but that the timings have just been switched from a 150 to 158 with allowances removed as well - there's nothing following it along the Calder Valley to stop them putting in a bunch more allowances or dwell time if they wanted.

Except, the real problem which is the Huddersfield train. It's current path out of Huddersfield is given to the new Castleford extension of the Huddersfield-Wakefield route. There appears to be a path to follow the Castleford train, but the short turnaround at Leeds won't allow it without an extra unit, which Northern won't pay for. You can't move one of the other trains to fill the gap because it'll clash with the Manchester - Leeds via Brighouse service which is basically set in stone to fit around TPE.

I think they would have been better adding some padding to the Huddersfield - Leeds service so it runs a few minutes later from Halifax onwards plugging the gap slightly. It's also concerning the Chester - Leeds is timed as 158 as I didn't think they were enough 158s to go round? Given this service also links in with the remaining Leeds - Manchester Victoria service which currently sees 142s and 153s as strengthening units I hope this doesn't mean solo 158s are to become the norm

 

[Thomas6187]

One quirk I have noticed in the timetable from May is the 07:50 from Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central has been moved to start from Wilmslow at 07:48.

The reason for this is, when the 195 start service it will be a 2x3 car 195

 

[Greybeard33]

The reason for this is, when the 195 start service it will be a 2x3 car 195

Just to fill in the background, in most hours the xx50 Airport to Lime Street via Warrington shares an Airport platform with the xx53 TPE Airport to Cleethorpes (3-car 185). But the 0853 to Cleethorpes is a 6-car 2*185, which does not leave enough platform for the Northern train (the Airport platforms are 8-car length). So instead of an 0850 from the Airport, there is a short working, 0910 Oxford Road to Lime Street.

Likewise, the Airport platform is not long enough to be occupied by a 6-car 0750 (2*195/1) to Lime Street at the same time as the 0753 to Cleethorpes. Hence the change to start from Wilmslow and bypass the Airport.

Trying to fit 6-car trains into the Airport station is like trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot!

This change will leave the Airport with a 3 hour gap between direct services to Lime Street via Warrington (0653 to 0953). And the first arrival from Lime Street via Warrington will become 0928. Clearly Northern is prioritising commuter capacity over early morning airline passengers.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Just to fill in the background, in most hours the xx50 Airport to Lime Street via Warrington shares an Airport platform with the xx53 TPE Airport to Cleethorpes (3-car 185). But the 0853 to Cleethorpes is a 6-car 2*185, which does not leave enough platform for the Northern train (the Airport platforms are 8-car length). So instead of an 0850 from the Airport, there is a short working, 0910 Oxford Road to Lime Street.

Likewise, the Airport platform is not long enough to be occupied by a 6-car 0750 (2*195/1) to Lime Street at the same time as the 0753 to Cleethorpes. Hence the change to start from Wilmslow and bypass the Airport.

Trying to fit 6-car trains into the Airport station is like trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot!

This change will leave the Airport with a 3 hour gap between direct services to Lime Street via Warrington (0653 to 0953). And the first arrival from Lime Street via Warrington will become 0928. Clearly Northern is prioritising commuter capacity over early morning airline passengers.

Thanks for providing all this background and reasoning to these changes

 

[Killingworth]

Just to fill in the background, in most hours the xx50 Airport to Lime Street via Warrington shares an Airport platform with the xx53 TPE Airport to Cleethorpes (3-car 185). But the 0853 to Cleethorpes is a 6-car 2*185, which does not leave enough platform for the Northern train (the Airport platforms are 8-car length). So instead of an 0850 from the Airport, there is a short working, 0910 Oxford Road to Lime Street.

Likewise, the Airport platform is not long enough to be occupied by a 6-car 0750 (2*195/1) to Lime Street at the same time as the 0753 to Cleethorpes. Hence the change to start from Wilmslow and bypass the Airport.

Trying to fit 6-car trains into the Airport station is like trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot!

This change will leave the Airport with a 3 hour gap between direct services to Lime Street via Warrington (0653 to 0953). And the first arrival from Lime Street via Warrington will become 0928. Clearly Northern is prioritising commuter capacity over early morning airline passengers.

Yet again we have a case of conflicting promises and franchise commitments. Northern and TPE are engaged in head to head combat over platforms and track capacity. TPE's often made promises of 6 coaches between Sheffield and Manchester can only be met by some form of dilution. It can be by them removing one unit at Piccadilly or squeezing out another service at the Airport - or not providing 6 car trains.

The 8.25 arrival is already a 6 car train that's rammed full if down to 3 and can have standees at 6. The 9.25 arrival into the Airport is 1B67 leaving Sheffield at 8.08 and usually standing from Dore & Totley at 8.14. It is down to be followed into 3A at the Airport by the Lime Street train in 3B so only 3 cars still?

1B86 leaves 3A at 16.53 and is 6 cars normally now, so that is clear. Looking at RTT there's not much prospect of a complete and reliable regular 6 coach service this year unless they squeeze in a Northern 2 coach service at the end of the platform, or do some splitting at Piccadilly. At least there will be a few potential 6 car slots for trains during the day - once the rolling stock becomes available.