Northern timetable changes May 2019

[xotGD]

Might as well do the Airedale recast now so that 6 car services can be slotted in as and when.

 

[Mathew S]

So it's three weeks until the T-12 deadline and no sign of anything resembling a timetable from Northern for this May. Does anyone know what's happening that's delaying things? From my own pootles around the data I think every other TOC has been completed for a while now.

 

[Llama]

If I was a gambling man I would put a pound on all not being well, that work is needed to see if the May '19 TT is actually viable depending on enough crew being trained on the routes and traction required.

Good job I am not a gambling man...

 

[Lucky63]

Northern's services have started to be entered in Real Train Times, and because there are likely to be a few big changes, I thought they deserved their own thread.

At this time, there are a couple of Hazel Grove - Blackpool services loaded in which are three minutes quicker between Piccadilly and Preston than the current services, partly because they have one fewer stop - I thought there would be more of a time gain than this! They are pathed as Class 323s.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...-2359?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt&toc=NT

Would be very surprised to see 323s on this route. It'd mean a Piccadilly driver taking it as far as Preston for a Liverpool driver to then take it on to Blackpool.
If they use a 319 it'd make much more sense.
I must say that I can't see Northern training Buxton, Wigan, Victoria and Blackpool drivers on 323s in the next 4 months hence my doubts on that traction being used.

 

[scrapy]

Would be very surprised to see 323s on this route. It'd mean a Piccadilly driver taking it as far as Preston for a Liverpool driver to then take it on to Blackpool.
If they use a 319 it'd make much more sense.
I must say that I can't see Northern training Buxton, Wigan, Victoria and Blackpool drivers on 323s in the next 4 months hence my doubts on that traction being used.

Unlikely and they would have to train guards (unless Buxton guards sign 323s?) as neither Piccadilly nor Liverpool sign Deansgate to Leyland via Bolton. If the 323s are staying at Northern then I can see it happening but if they are going this year then it's unlikely as there are plenty of other training requirements.

 

[Llama]

Buxton guards possibly signed 323s for working Hazel Groves prior to 2008 but I would be surprised if they have kept knowledge on them.

Is it possible that these are going to be timed as 331s?

 

[driver_m]

Just noticed a ECS doing Chester-Earlestown runs for Northern. Does this mean that Chester - Leeds service is actually going to happen in May?

 

[Llama]

Yes, that is meant to happen. One 'link' of Manchester Victoria drivers have been/are being trained on 158s and the route to Chester via Warrington BQ in preparation for the service starting in May. Eventually it will be operated using class 195s.

 

[driver_m]

Cheers @Llama

 

[Mathew S]

Yes, that is meant to happen. One 'link' of Manchester Victoria drivers have been/are being trained on 158s and the route to Chester via Warrington BQ in preparation for the service starting in May. Eventually it will be operated using class 195s.

Will this stop at Newton / Earlestown do we know yet?

 

[Greybeard33]

Will this stop at Newton / Earlestown do we know yet?

Neither Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown are shown on the Northern Connect map on Northern's website. However, the Northern TSR for December 2017, which specifies the Chester service, requires Newton to have 2tph to Manchester but only 1tph from Liverpool. Earlestown must have 2tph to Manchester and 2tph from Liverpool, but the latter will presumably include the stopper to Warrington Bank Quay.

Therefore it can be deduced that the Chester service is likely to call at both stations.

 

[Mathew S]

Neither Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown are shown on the Northern Connect map on Northern's website. However, the Northern TSR for December 2017, which specifies the Chester service, requires Newton to have 2tph to Manchester but only 1tph from Liverpool. Earlestown must have 2tph to Manchester and 2tph from Liverpool, but the latter will presumably include the stopper to Warrington Bank Quay.

Therefore it can be deduced that the Chester service is likely to call at both stations.

Ta. That'll be very useful

 

[scrapy]

Neither Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown are shown on the Northern Connect map on Northern's website. However, the Northern TSR for December 2017, which specifies the Chester service, requires Newton to have 2tph to Manchester but only 1tph from Liverpool. Earlestown must have 2tph to Manchester and 2tph from Liverpool, but the latter will presumably include the stopper to Warrington Bank Quay.

Therefore it can be deduced that the Chester service is likely to call at both stations.

When Chester to Leeds services briefly appeared pre-May 2018 farce, they did show stops at Newton and Earlestown on most services although there was at least one Eastbound that didn't stop at either.

 

[Glenn1969]

I take it the Chester service will be an extension of the existing Calder Valley semi fast trains and the additional services promised will be held back until December (the Airport service for instance)

 

[Cheshire Rover]

When Chester to Leeds services briefly appeared pre-May 2018 farce, they did show stops at Newton and Earlestown on most services although there was at least one Eastbound that didn't stop at either.

There were also three peak time stops at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn East with one service starting and terminating at Ellesmere Port. It will be interesting to see if these are still on.

 

[Llama]

Yes the Chester service should be an extension of a Calder Valley through service. As regards the Northern Airport services via the Ordsall Chord, I rather suspect that the last thing the Castlefield corridor needs from a congestion point of view is another regional train. Obviously though the Calder Valley line would benefit greatly from more direct links to South Manchester and the Airport.

 

[Glenn1969]

It was a franchise commitment and quite a few people will be annoyed if it doesn't materialise

 

[Mollman]

It was a franchise commitment and quite a few people will be annoyed if it doesn't materialise

But wasn't it based on the infrastructure being there to support it, which clearly it isn't.

 

[Mathew S]

But wasn't it based on the infrastructure being there to support it, which clearly it isn't.

Indeed. When I spoke to Northern the other week the clear message was that they won't be introducing any new services until/unless both the stock is available and the infrastructure improvements that were promised *when the franchise was let* are in place. Reading between the lines it sounds like they are placing the blame on Network Rail / DfT and saying that they (Northern) can't be expected to provide services on infrastructure that they were promised but which hasn't been delivered.
I'd suggest that means no more services through the Castlefield corridor unless the Ox Road remodeling and Picc 15/16 are completed just for starters.

 

[Flyingsprinter]

If a Calder Valley to the airport service never happens it will make the mockery that is the Ordsall Chord even greater. The chord was built basically for a service that will never happen. Good use of money that.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

If a Calder Valley to the airport service never happens it will make the mockery that is the Ordsall Chord even greater. The chord was built basically for a service that will never happen. Good use of money that.

...from which it should be obvious that the Ordsall Chord and the Oxford Road/Piccadilly upgrades should have been treated as a single large project. Perhaps that was even Network Rail's intention at some point though the objections to the chord put a spanner in the works as regards timing. Of course there is the political angle that a new stretch of route can be spun very easily as useful new infrastructure whereas station upgrades are a harder sell. Roll on a new SoS as I don't think Grayling has any intention of making a decision either way as he seems happy with the herd of unicorns that is The Digital Railway.

 

[Glenn1969]

I think Grayling is kicking it into the long grass and linking it into HS3. As I will be 64 befoew HS2b opens I'm not thrilled at that prospect

 

[Bantamzen]

It'll be a bit of a blow if the Calder Valley - Airport route is lost, although if I'm honest I'd rather keep the current two TPE paths to Manchester Airport from Yorkshire & the North East than trying to shoehorn in the Calder Valley as well if this were to cause more problems.

Of course if Northern were to terminate one more North West service at Victoria rather than run to the airport.....

(Dons tin hat & heads for the bunker)

Just as an aside, I've used a few Airport services recently to & from Leeds and for the most part they sailed effortlessly through the Castlefield corridor, with only one badly late thanks to two earlier services being held at Leeds due to crew issues. Its almost as if it could be possible to route one extra path through there, though I'd never dream of suggesting it....

 

[Glenn1969]

As it was in the TSR if it isn't delivered could it be deemed to be a breach of franchise terms? If so I am sure they will find a way. I'm just not sure when.

 

[Jozhua]

It'll be a bit of a blow if the Calder Valley - Airport route is lost, although if I'm honest I'd rather keep the current two TPE paths to Manchester Airport from Yorkshire & the North East than trying to shoehorn in the Calder Valley as well if this were to cause more problems.

Of course if Northern were to terminate one more North West service at Victoria rather than run to the airport.....

(Dons tin hat & heads for the bunker)

Just as an aside, I've used a few Airport services recently to & from Leeds and for the most part they sailed effortlessly through the Castlefield corridor, with only one badly late thanks to two earlier services being held at Leeds due to crew issues. Its almost as if it could be possible to route one extra path through there, though I'd never dream of suggesting it....

Only if it doesn't stop at Piccadilly 13/14

Seriously though, if areas want a direct connection to the airport that's fine, but no more trains should stop to load passengers at 13/14...I mean not every service stops at Deansgate because it doesn't have to...

 

[Llama]

Even Oxford Road is skipped these days. A couple of trains stop at both Piccadilly and Deansgate but not Oxford Road.

 

[Jozhua]

Even Oxford Road is skipped these days. A couple of trains stop at both Piccadilly and Deansgate but not Oxford Road.

Do any services skip Piccadilly? It surprises me that with Oxford Road's clearly much higher through capacity that it would be skipped over Piccadilly...

I guess Piccadilly is good for changing services, but I wonder whether the benefits of making a few change at Oxford Road and then at Piccadilly to allow trains to be less delayed through Castlefield is worth it?

 

[driver_m]

Do any services skip Piccadilly? It surprises me that with Oxford Road's clearly much higher through capacity that it would be skipped over Piccadilly...

I guess Piccadilly is good for changing services, but I wonder whether the benefits of making a few change at Oxford Road and then at Piccadilly to allow trains to be less delayed through Castlefield is worth it?

We skip it if we are diverting that way, but I think everything passenger booked that way, stops.

 

[Glenn1969]

I would be tempted to have the Calder Valley- Airport service skip Piccadilly given that it would still stop at Victoria

The promised Calder Valley- Liverpool service is supposed to be via Warrington Central so that could provide the Vic- Picc- Ox Rd extra Northern service as a combination of existing trains (if that is what they were planning)

 

[faltskog36abba]

I would be tempted to have the Calder Valley- Airport service skip Piccadilly given that it would still stop at Victoria

The promised Calder Valley- Liverpool service is supposed to be via Warrington Central so that could provide the Vic- Picc- Ox Rd extra Northern service as a combination of existing trains (if that is what they were planning)

Its going down the chat moss line via Earlestown I think.