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Northern timetable changes May 2019

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Bovverboy

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It depends which diagram needs covered - at present only Piccadilly and Lime Street sign 323s, whereas most depots sign 319s, so it's normally easier to pull a DMU from another diagram to cover a failed 319. Also there's the time issue of getting a stepped up unit to where it needs to be, so in the case of a Liverpool area failure a unit can be quickly nabbed from a Cheshire Lines diagram.

Oh yes, I do of course appreciate both the above points. On the logistical issue, don't forget that there is so much ECS running at the moment that getting a unit from A to B doesn't necessarily mean physically doing that, the same can be effectively achieved by refraining from sending one ECS the other way. For instance, the 0729 Alderley Edge to Piccadilly is covered by the unit off 5H43, 0540 ECS Allerton to Alderley Edge. (This is the unit which parks at Stockport for the rest of the day). Clearly, it would be as easy to get a unit from any NW base to Alderley as from Allerton. Whether a unit would be available, and whether co-operation between bases exists to the required extent, is obviously another matter.
On the 319 v 323 issue, it would be easy to counter that only Piccadilly and Lime Street crews currently operate the full Chat Moss route (I presume?) but I believe there is some interworking of 319s between Chat Moss and Lime Street to Wigan/Blackpool services, which I see as regrettable, if the 319s and 323s aren't going to be fully interchangeable.
 
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Bovverboy

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It was the 0928 from Lime Street/1027 Oxford Road
DMU substitutions on 319 diagrams have been an almost daily occurrence for the last few months. Today's choice for DMU vice EMU is a Wigan - Liverpool stopping service
Been fairly standard for a while that one. Often the diagram that leaves Wigan NW Platform 6 at 0820-ish.
The diagram which covers the 0821 Wigan - Liverpool then does 0928 Liverpool - Crewe stopper. So is the 0928 habitually a diesel?
 

yorksrob

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Northern's 323s are not PRM compliant and so have to be withdrawn by the end of the year unless modded by then. It appears Porterbrook is prioritising mods to the WMT 323 fleet, with a follow-on option for Northern's during 2020. See Rumours of all 323s to now go to Northern and subsequent discussion.

Thanks. It does strike me that we're going to end up with a lot of EMU's. Will there be enough electrified lines to run them on !
 

HotelNovember

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Oh yes, I do of course appreciate both the above points. On the logistical issue, don't forget that there is so much ECS running at the moment that getting a unit from A to B doesn't necessarily mean physically doing that, the same can be effectively achieved by refraining from sending one ECS the other way. For instance, the 0729 Alderley Edge to Piccadilly is covered by the unit off 5H43, 0540 ECS Allerton to Alderley Edge. (This is the unit which parks at Stockport for the rest of the day). Clearly, it would be as easy to get a unit from any NW base to Alderley as from Allerton. Whether a unit would be available, and whether co-operation between bases exists to the required extent, is obviously another matter.
On the 319 v 323 issue, it would be easy to counter that only Piccadilly and Lime Street crews currently operate the full Chat Moss route (I presume?) but I believe there is some interworking of 319s between Chat Moss and Lime Street to Wigan/Blackpool services, which I see as regrettable, if the 319s and 323s aren't going to be fully interchangeable.

But it’s a good diagram for a 323 with high miles/due exam, as it does so little and with Longsight no longer being the main stabling point, Allerton makes sense.

Wigan, Manchester Victoria, and Liverpool traincrew work the Liverpool - Crewe via Man Airport as far as Oxford Road, and out of those only Liverpool sign 323’s (for now).

323’s will be spreading their wings from the new TT a bit more.

The diagram which covers the 0821 Wigan - Liverpool then does 0928 Liverpool - Crewe stopper. So is the 0928 habitually a diesel?

Nope, still planned a 319. However since the operation of 319’s on the Bolton Corridor, that diagram is a favourite for DMU substitution.
 

Greybeard33

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Thanks. It does strike me that we're going to end up with a lot of EMU's. Will there be enough electrified lines to run them on !
According to the published franchise agreement, Arriva's original plan was that 5*319, 3*321, 5*322 and 17*323 would all go off lease as soon as sufficient 331s are in traffic to replace them. Leaving an EMU fleet of 27*319, 31*331/0, 12*331/1 and 16*333.

Since then 8 of the 319s have been sent for conversion to 769s, to cover for NW electrification delays, but also 3 additional 3-car 195s have been ordered for Windermere services. Presumably that means that at least 3 of the 331/0s, originally intended for Windermere, will eventually be available to strengthen additional diagrams to 6-car, either in the East and/or the West.
 

Jamesrob637

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Side topic; 08:41 Picc to Chester was 4-car today passing Heaton Chapel; it's only been 2-car Mon-Thu. Nothing to imply a long formation on Journey Check. Do Northern pinch a unit from elsewhere to run this as 4-car on a Friday? I notice it'll still leave Picc at 08:41 post-TT change.
 

Bovverboy

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But it’s a good diagram for a 323 with high miles/due exam, as it does so little and with Longsight no longer being the main stabling point, Allerton makes sense.

I've clearly not been paying attention. Where is the main Northern 323 stabling point now?

323’s will be spreading their wings from the new TT a bit more.

They won't be going anywhere they don't go at present.
 

Bovverboy

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I've clearly not been paying attention. Where is the main Northern 323 stabling point now?

A lot come from Allerton now, along with a few from Longsight/Stockport and oustabled at Crewe.

Well I certainly agree that Longsight is no longer the 'main' stabling point, although it does vie with Stockport CMD for the title. I have had a look through RTT and found that in recent times a typical night would see Northern's 323s stabled at Longsight (6), Stockport (5), Allerton (2), Piccadilly Station (2), Crewe (1), and Stoke-on-Trent (1). The number stabled at stations, and at Stockport CMD, is inclined to vary a bit. This certainly marks a change from a couple of years ago, when the totals would have been Longsight (12) and Stockport CMD (5). I would hardly term the two at Allerton 'a lot'.

323’s will be spreading their wings from the new TT a bit more.

They won't be going anywhere they don't go at present.

They will - even if it’s just for one round trip.

And where might that be to?
 
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Geeves

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With the amount of wired lines limited it can only be to Preston which Piccadilly drivers have been learning again recently in greater numbers.
 

Llama

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There's another diagram to Liverpool for 323s, that's it as far as I am aware.
 

Bovverboy

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I've clearly not been paying attention. Where is the main Northern 323 stabling point now?

A lot come from Allerton now, along with a few from Longsight/Stockport and oustabled at Crewe

Sorry, notwithstanding the totals I gave in post #609, I can only now find one 323 duty which finishes and starts at Allerton - the second is added as of tomorrow.

We really need 'loop & link' to come and give us chapter and verse on this.
 

Jozhua

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I'm guessing the timetable change has gone mostly smoothly today, however if things are to go wrong, they'll probably crack off tomorrow!
 

Mathew S

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I'm guessing the timetable change has gone mostly smoothly today, however if things are to go wrong, they'll probably crack off tomorrow!
Yep. There's a reason I'm working from home tomorrow, and not even attempting my usual commute into Manchester. Sadly, I fear I may be doing the same come July 1st.
 

Glenn1969

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I know tomorrow is the start of Chester-Leeds and Sheffield-Gainsborough plus the last train from Leeds to Halifax is half an hour later. I really want the timetable to work this year in advance of the Northern Connect launch
 

Mathew S

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I know tomorrow is the start of Chester-Leeds and Sheffield-Gainsborough plus the last train from Leeds to Halifax is half an hour later. I really want the timetable to work this year in advance of the Northern Connect launch
Agreed. I'll be delighted if it works. The few signs I've seen today, however, of trains *still* being cancelled due to a lack of train crew... well, let's say I'm not optimistic.
 

Deerfold

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I've spotted how rubbish the new Calder Valley Sunday times are for me. The half hour hourly gap has moved so that if I just miss the train before it, I wait half an hour in Bradford and then just miss my hourly bus from Halifax.
 

Bovverboy

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I'm guessing the timetable change has gone mostly smoothly today, however if things are to go wrong, they'll probably crack off tomorrow!

I'm not aware that there have been any service interruptions today because of the timetable change but I'm afraid that today has followed, even surpassed, the form of recent Sundays. No trains appear to have run today on
Manchester Victoria - Clitheroe
Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North
Manchester Piccadilly - Stoke
Wigan North Western - Stalybridge
Of course, over sections of route common to other services, trains have operated.
All the above are coming up as pre-planned cancellations, yet I can find no sign of engineering works.
There has been the usual smattering of cancellations on other routes, too, but the majority of scheduled journeys have operated.
 

Glenn1969

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That must be annoying- know some of the buses changed today as well. Take it yours wasn't one of them?

The pre planned cancellations are no doubt the usual NW Sunday staffing issues. I doubt they will change until Sunday is made part of the regular working week at NW Depots like it is in Yorkshire
 

Deerfold

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I’ve been advised that the first trains from New Pudsey to Leeds have been changed.

First train will depart at 0626. Next train will depart at 0708, which is 42 minutes later. This is the first of five trains in under an hour with 4tph in each direction during the day.

The 0655 (0606 Huddersfield to Leeds) appears to have disappeared. Does anyone know what has happened?

Passed through Halifax station today. There's posters all over the place pointing out the first two trains of the day are at 0600 and 0645 from tomorrow (the removal of the 0627 might catch a few out, especially with the 0602 being 2 minutes earlier than now).
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Looking at Monday to Friday services, how sure can I be of a day trip to Windermere using services starting to and from Manchester Airport:-
Manchester Piccadilly dep 0847 ... Windermere arr 1043
Windermere dep 1605 ... Manchester Piccadilly arr 1758
 

DJH1971

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Has the 0559 MAN-LIV (via NLW)! now switched from 319/323's to DMU's?

Today's service is formed of a 142 and a 150.

Thought the Pacers were being phased out as part of the franchise agreement?
 
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Has the 0559 MAN-LIV (via NLW)! now switched from 319/323's to DMU's?

Today's service is formed of a 142 and a 150.

Thought the Pacers were being phased out as part of the franchise agreement?
I can't find an 0559 MAN-LIV. But if it's the 0600 MCV-LIV you're referring to, it is still timed as a 319, so hopefully/possibly it could have been a one off this morning?
 

yorksrob

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Sadly the old 7:27 Normanton to Leeds hasn't got its missing 153 back. Standing room only as usual :(
 

Deerfold

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Has the 0559 MAN-LIV (via NLW)! now switched from 319/323's to DMU's?

Today's service is formed of a 142 and a 150.

Thought the Pacers were being phased out as part of the franchise agreement?

Northern will need to have received a few 195s (and trained on them) before that will start happening.

Unless you'd rather just have the 150.
 

ricoblade

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The service I use quite a lot from Retford to Sheffield has an enhanced service as part of the new timetable. I can't believe that the service that now only stops at Worksop before Sheffield is only 8 minutes quicker than the stopper that calls at 5 extra stops. Any thoughts as to why this is so slow, I know there's slack timetabling as the existing service quite often arrives early outside Sheffield and then sits in the tunnels for 5 minutes or so.
 

Bovverboy

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Has the 0559 MAN-LIV (via NLW)! now switched from 319/323's to DMU's?

Today's service is formed of a 142 and a 150.

I meant the 0559 MIA-LIV (via NLW) sorry.

Well I certainly believe you when you say your train was a DMU set this morning - the usual ECS working Stockport CMD to Wilmslow was cancelled and replaced by one from Newton Heath! Don't know why it was routed Manchester Vic and the Ordsall Chord, though, rather than via Denton.

The duty referred to above continues with the 0757 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria - perhaps someone's been reading what I posted on this thread as recently as last Wednesday.

My own feeling is that if an EMU should be substituted by a shorter DMU, a prime candidate is the one which rests at Manchester Victoria for much of the day. I don't think its capacity gets strained, either AM or PM.
 
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