Northern timetable changes May 2019

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by absolutelymilk, 19 Jan 2019.

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  1. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    That's quite a waste of capacity through the dreaded Castlefield corridor! Though as central Manchester is in the middle that'll be where the majority of folk will be heading. Still makes the second service rather pointless I agree. Also rather makes a mockery of the franchise agreement, meeting it on paper only. :rolleyes:
     
  2. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Some are linked to introduction of new rolling stock which has been delayed.

    They have also been given a derogation due to lack of staff working Sundays to cancel 90 services a week where there is an alternative at least hourly equivalent on the following three routes from 31st March until June, and now that derogation has been extended until 9th September.
     Wigan North Western to Liverpool (served by Blackpool Nth – Liverpool)
     Manchester Piccadilly to Hazel Grove (served by Buxton)
     Wigan to Manchester Victoria via Atherton (served by Southport)
     
  3. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    Wasn't there an idea at some-stage that those Castleford terminators would extend to York via Sherburn & Church Fenton?
     
  4. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    Would that not depend on whether Platform 2 at Castleford is available for passengers? I do think it would be a good idea
     
  5. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Of course 1C50 is not yet running south of Preston. I was trying to explain why it does not show up as cancelled in RTT or the public timetable, despite being in the Working Timetable.
     
  6. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    I hope this derogation was made conditional on Northern negotiating a solution to the Sunday working arrangements.
     
  7. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    The two services in question are Blackpool North - Hazel Grove and Southport/Wigan - Alderley Edge. So they serve different markets at either end.

    The alternative would be to try to squeeze one of them through Victoria instead of the Castlefield corridor - out of the frying pan into the fire!
     
  8. splashoutradio

    splashoutradio Member

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    Thanks for this - I did wonder why the Wigan - Liverpool & the Atherton lines had been given a reduced service in the latest timetable.
     
  9. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    Yes, I wasn't suggesting there was an easy solution. Even if was possible to move one of these trains by half an hour, service intervals would be made worse somewhere else, e.g. between Stockport and Alderley Edge/Hazel Grove or Wigan - Bolton.
     
  10. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    This could relieve pressure on TPE. Platform 2 at Castleford would have to be reinstated. I think there is a subway under the line which might remove the need for an accessible footbridge - anyone know?
     
  11. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    When the Huddersfield to Cas service was announced, there were many on here (myself included) who suggested extending to York. I don't think there's been anything official though.

    Extending to York would require a second platform at Castleford (or a crossover north of the station, but sorting the platform would probably be cheaper) but my query was just a thought about smoothing out the turnaround. The guard on the service said it was a pain in the neck having to change ends three times, but she also didn't know where the line beyond Castleford went... so I assume it isn't in Northern's required route knowledge. That may even be one of the reasons the turnaround is performed the way it is.

    I imagine being able to just pull a few coach lengths towards York (with permissive working to allow the Sheffield to reverse in the platform) would be much easier for crews.

    There's a subway but it isn't particularly pleasant. It's also a bit remote from the platforms now.
     
  12. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    Thanks. TPE send some late night trains this way.
     
  13. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    It's a diversionary route for TPE, don't know about Northern:- clearly not all Northern depots sign it even if some of them do!
     
  14. Paul_10

    Paul_10 Member

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    I'm sure there is an explanation to this but I have no idea so can anyone tell me why 2C71 1439 Lancaster to Morecambe skips Bare Lane on the way to Morecambe but stops there on the return journey?

    I'm not entirely sure why this service is even running as there is a train to Morecambe(which comes from Leeds) around 25 mins earlier so it will most likely have barely any passengers on it, just seems wasted mileage too me?
     
  15. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    The two things are related - the 1439 has to wait for the return of the previous train at Morecambe South Jn. Must then skip Bare Lane to make the time back.
     
  16. Paul_10

    Paul_10 Member

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    Wow. It sounds rather nonsensical too me seeing as the train then sits in Morecambe for around 20 mins before heading back out to Lancaster in anycase. Could either timed the service to depart 2 mins later(or some other time) or better still, not run it at all seeing as its not a peak train and the loadings on this service must be quite minimal.
     
  17. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    Well, contrary to expectations, well done Northern. A 3-car 158 on the 0823 Wigan NW - Manchester Piccadilly turns out to be perfect. Enough seats for everyone (there were actually some empty seats the whole way to Manchester this morning) and a much more pleasant experience all round than a 319.
    I'm impressed. If they can keep it running to time(ish) then this will be an excellent move.
     
  18. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    Mathew S, I can only presume you get your 319 riding done in a different situation, the 0823 is never going to be 319-formed, it comes from Barrow.
    What's the usual fare for the 0823 - a two car 158?
    I agree that a 158 is in most respects a pleasant experience, but if things were to get hectic you would do better with a 319, the seating capacity is 50% greater than that of a 3-car 158, and the total capacity probably proportionally even greater.
    The modest passenger loading seems odd, given how notoriously busy the ex-Glasgow TPE was when it used to stop at Wigan. I can only think that people haven't yet tumbled to the 0823's existence.
     
  19. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    0823 is probably a bit late for most commuters (given that 9am is the most usual start) so this isn't hugely surprising. If it was 0745-0800ish I would expect it a LOT busier.
     
  20. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Presumably today was the first time this week that @Mathew S has taken the 0823. Until last week it was a 319 from Blackpool to the Airport, running in the same path.
     
  21. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    Correct.

    I don't think we have a 'usual' yet - it's only been running for four days with DMUs (as @Greybeard33 said, prior to this it was a 319 from Blackpool). The number of people making the journey from Wigan hasn't noticable fallen since pre-May 2018 when it was the very busy TPE services. The change in the loadings on the via Chat Moss services, I think, is a combination of fewer passengers from Preston and north of Preston using via-Wigan trains, and more, faster trains (specifically the xx55/xx56/xx57 Leeds services) spreading out demand somewhat.
    The difference between a 319 and a 158, which was very noticable this morning, is that passengers are prepared to use all of the seats on a 158. By contrast the very cramped 3+2 seating on a 319 meant that it was normal for the train to be packed with standing passengers even though, at a guess, roughly 20% / 25% of seats were empty.

    A lot of Wigan - Manchester passengers now seem to use the 0657, 0756, and 0855 Wigan NW - Leeds services. Because they start at Wigan you're almost guaranteed a seat and, once the delays through Deansgate/OxRoad/Piccadilly are taken into account, are usually just as fast as the airport trains. 0755 arriving into Victoria at 0836 is going to be ideal for a lot of city centre workers starting at 9am. Those heading to the south of the city centre (Picc, Ox Road) seem to favour the 0650, 0750 Alderley Edge trains which, whilse slightly slower, still gets you into the city in good time to start at 8am or 9am.
     
  22. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    A bit of a misleading response there, on my part, with the benefit of hindsight. Yes, a four-car DMU set has been covering an EMU duty this week, but, conversely, a Class 319 has been doing the one Airport to Preston via Chat Moss duty, which is diagrammed for DMU. So, swings and roundabouts.
    Out of Northern's currently available 27 319s, 24 are scheduled for use on Mondays to Fridays (this doesn't include the one currently doing Airport to Preston). Three seems a likely number to be required for scheduled maintenance (the equivalent totals for 323s are 15 required for Monday to Friday use, 2 required for scheduled maintenance).
    So the deployment of Northern's 27 319s seems to sum up as follows: 24 required for service Monday to Friday, 3 required for scheduled maintenance, nil general spare. Whether nil general spare should be considered sufficient leaves scope for argument!
    Actually, by virtue of the logic that a DMU can work an EMU duty but not vice-versa (the current one exception is a consequence of unusual circumstances) I would be able to see the point of not keeping any EMU spare, and covering with DMU if needed. But that, of course, assumes that spare DMUs are available..
     
    Last edited: 23 May 2019
  23. johntea

    johntea Established Member

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    It used to be highly frustrating as a resident of Castleford having a night out in York, catching one of the late East Coast services to Leeds which shoots through Castleford to then have to get a taxi back to Castleford from Leeds! :D

    Anyway just on the 17:02 Harrogate to Leeds express (departs from P1 at Harrogate rather than P3!)...great progress until just outside Leeds where it isn’t quite so express waiting for a platform!!!
     
  24. Marton

    Marton Member

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    There’s hope. I wouldn’t put yourself out to much to see it given the random selection I see.

    Strange other things on real-time trains. The 1111 arrival at Nunthorpe is shown as a Sprinter. The 1120 departure a pacer. AFAIK there isn’t a depo in Nunthorpe to do the swap

    FYI 158 on the 1456 Hexham Battersby today.
     
  25. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    Why a couple of the Newcastle starters on the coast line are timed for Sprinters (30sec faster from Sunderland to Middlesbrough!) is not obvious.
    Timing load is rarely a guide to diagramked unit, certainly with regional DMUs..
     
  26. Mogster

    Mogster Member

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    The services from Wigan to Victoria are fairly frequent, less so to Castlefield. If it was going to Piccadilly it would be busier I suspect. The peak Castlefield - Wigan NW services were always rammed.
     
  27. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    The 0823 does go to Castlefield. I have yet to attempt the 0723, but I'm sure that is busier.
    The Alderley Edge services, even in the peaks, are less crowded than I would expect them to be. Certainly travelling Piccadilly - Wigan and vice versa I've never not had a seat.
     
  28. Mogster

    Mogster Member

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    I still think a lot of people associate Wigan North Western (WGN)with WCML and Liverpool services only. Unfortunately the 07:23 gets in Oxford Road too late from me.

    I think the poor reliability after last May’s timetable change and the frequent short formed services last Autumn drove a lot of people on to the roads. Then there was the Withdrawal of the Wigan - Manchester TPE services. Passenger numbers seem to be picking up again though. In the evening seats are more in demand from Oxford Road.

    The Edinburgh TPE Chat Moss service to WGN was always packed before it was withdrawn...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 23 May 2019
  29. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    Yeah, I know. I used to use it every day. Horrid.
    The trick is to walk the five mins up the road and board at Picc. I invariably get a seat from there no matter which service I'm catching. It's Oxford Road and onwards you get people standing, I agree.
     
  30. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Do you know that the temporary Airport - Preston diagram is booked as a DMU, or are you assuming that because the workings are timed for a 158?

    Northern does not have enough 90mph DMUs to work the full hourly Airport - Barrow/Windermere service until the 195s are in traffic. 75mph units cannot be used because they would delay the WCML expresses. So some of the Airport - Barrow services have, until the end of June, been split into separate Airport - Preston and Lancaster - Barrow workings, and a few 3-car 158s have been borrowed from the east side to work the remaining Airport - Barrow/Windermere services, the Windermere - Oxenholme shuttle and the Barrow - Lancaster short workings. To me it makes sense that Northern would plan to use an 319 for the Airport - Preston short workings, rather than "waste" a precious 158 running to and fro under the wires all day. If that means substituting a couple of 75mph DMUs on a Chat Moss 319 diagram, where they are less likely to delay following services, so be it.

    The current Airport - Preston STP workings are timed for a 158 because they are using the paths of the LTP Airport - Barrow workings. 100mph 195s and 319s should be able easily to better 158 timings, so the paths allow for the slowest traction likely to be used.
     
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