Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[bradford758]

Northern operated service to Huddersfield:

05:56 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden, Slaithwaite and Huddersfield

07:00 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Marsden, Slaithwaite and Huddersfield

08:04 Manchester Piccadilly-Stalybridge, calling at Guide Bridge and Stalybridge

16:02 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield and Huddersfield

17:02 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield and Huddersfield

18:01 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Ardwick, Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield and Huddersfield

Huddersfield-Piccadilly

06:00 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly (06:53)

07:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly (07:54)

08:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly (08:54)

18:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly

19:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly

I think that there isn't any extra Saturday from Northern, and TPE haven't released a proposed TT yet

That's an interesting change, a new Huddersfield-Guide Bridge service.
I have thought it a good idea to have a stop at Guide Bridge for connection.

 

[WatcherZero]

About 5 local MP's and Northern got together and after several months of wrangling hammered out the compromise which was cost neutral, wasnt publicised. Perfectly within Northers power to negotiate as the franchise agreement is measured by frequencies between key points and doesnt specify actual routes the services have to take. There was nothing for example in the franchise agreement abou a Wigan-alderley edge service, just frequencies between each key point and Piccadilly.

 

[pemma]

About 5 local MP's and Northern got together and after several months of wrangling hammered out the compromise which was cost neutral, wasnt publicised. Perfectly within Northers power to negotiate as the franchise agreement is measured by frequencies between key points and doesnt specify actual routes the services have to take. There was nothing for example in the franchise agreement abou a Wigan-alderley edge service, just frequencies between each key point and Piccadilly.

There is a requirement for Stockport to Bolton services. Obviously due to pathing constraints there isn't the option for those services to only run between Stockport and Bolton.

If what someone else reported is true DfT allowed Northern to take on 8 x 319 Flexs (opposed to normal 319s) due to the delays in Wigan-Bolton, Manchester-Stalybridge and Oxenholme-Windermere wiring, Southport didn't come in to it. However, there were discussions about Southport but Northern saw that as a December 2019 aspiration and it relies on DfT agreeing to Northern keeping all the 319 Flexs opposed to returning some in 2020, as well as Windermere remaining a DMU route.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Is there any news on the Ellesmere Port services at all?

 

[Greybeard33]

There is a requirement for Stockport to Bolton services. Obviously due to pathing constraints there isn't the option for those services to only run between Stockport and Bolton.

If what someone else reported is true DfT allowed Northern to take on 8 x 319 Flexs (opposed to normal 319s) due to the delays in Wigan-Bolton, Manchester-Stalybridge and Oxenholme-Windermere wiring, Southport didn't come in to it. However, there were discussions about Southport but Northern saw that as a December 2019 aspiration and it relies on DfT agreeing to Northern keeping all the 319 Flexs opposed to returning some in 2020, as well as Windermere remaining a DMU route.

I think Wigan to Stalybridge will be 3 diagrams, Wigan to Alderley Edge 4 (maybe 3 if interworked with Stalybridge) and Windermere to Airport 2. So, allowing for maintenance, they could not all be 319 Flexes. Extending to Southport would need an extra diagram, so could perhaps be done in combination with Windermere after Stalybridge is wired, if all 8 Flexes are retained?

Not sure any extra 319s would be needed, because the 331s ordered for Windermere could be redeployed on other electrified routes.

 

[pemma]

The final batch of 331s were supposed to replace 5 of the 319s, as well as the 321s and 322s in Yorkshire. Those 13 existing EMUs are supposed to be returned to the ROSCOs in 2020.

 

[Starmill]

Maybe adding in the extra Hazel Grove requires slow accelerating Pacers to be kept clear of Stockport?

I think people are forgetting that this is not the 'final' timetable.

There are a number of other things rumored to be on their way in 2019 that are not included in these drafts. Notably there are no Bradford <> Nottingham services or Bridlington <> Leeds services - I am sure there are others. There is no evidence that franchise commitments have been dropped, particularly.

 

[pemma]

4tph to Hazel Grove was a December 17 requirement so as GreyBeard has said it seems to be the only Dec 17 requirement that won't be introduced on time or within 6 months of the scheduled date.

 

[Hatter76]

Marple was planned to get extra evening and Sunday trains.
Can anyone advise?

 

[Bevan Price]

Is there any news on the Ellesmere Port services at all?

There may be others, but so far, I have only found the following.
15:42 Leeds - Ellesmere Port (Helsby 18:01)

07:15 & 18:22 Ellesmere Port - Leeds

That would make the service even worse than the current service.

 

[Starmill]

There may be others, but so far, I have only found the following.
15:42 Leeds - Ellesmere Port (Helsby 18:01)

07:15 & 18:22 Ellesmere Port - Leeds

That would make the service even worse than the current service.

To say nothing of the hour gap in Chester > Manchester services that may leave.

 

[pemma]

To say nothing of the hour gap in Chester > Manchester services that may leave.

The ATW peak time extras will continue so the gap will only be in direct services between Victoria and Chester, Piccadilly to Chester via Warrington will have 2tph at those times.

There was also supposed to be a Warrington to Ellesmere Port service which would be an inbound working for the morning service to Leeds.

 

[Iskra]

Some of these services seem a bit Central Trains-esque to me in their route length and passing through multiple congested areas, this could cause a lot of time keeping problems unless there are going to be a lot of long dwells put in by Northern.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Cumbrian Coast services.

There are new sunday services covering the full line between Carlisle & Barrow - approximately hourly for part of the day. Not sure if this will be "all-year" or "summer only". There are also more weekday services, but I cannot find any running further south than Lancaster. The stopping pattern is too complex to list here, but more trains omit some of the request stops, and a few run non-stop between Millom & Askam

The 'semi-fast' services are the loco hauled trains. Outside of he Sellafield commuter times they miss several stations in an effort to aid reliability and to match the journey time from Carlisle to Barrow to that of a DMU.

The locos are also restricted to The Cumbrian Coast and no longer visit Lancaster or Preston.

 

[AmateurRambler]

As mentioned by others, the consultation is currently restricted to stakeholders, including Northern staff. The proposed departures from Leeds (Mon - Sat daytime) are:

xx.03 Leeds - Nottingham (remains via Barnsley)
xx.03 Leeds - Ilkley
xx.08 Leeds - Huddersfield (via Brighouse)
xx.09 Leeds - Knaresborough (fast to Harrogate)
xx.12 Leeds - Bradford Forster Square
xx.19 Leeds - Manchester Airport (fast, extension of current xx.18)
xx.22 Leeds - Southport (via Brighouse, stopper, extension of current xx.26)
xx.22 Leeds - Doncaster
xx.23 Leeds - Harrogate (additional stopper)
xx.24 Leeds - York (additional, stopper)
xx.26 Leeds - Knottingley (additional, via Wakefield Westgate and Kirkgate)
xx.26 Leeds - Skipton
xx.30 Leeds - Sheffield (via Castleford, stopper)
xx.33 Leeds - Ilkley
xx.38 Leeds - Lincoln (extension of fast Sheffield via Barnsley service)
xx.39 Leeds - York (fast to Harrogate)
xx.42 Leeds - Chester (semi-fast, extension of current xx.51)
xx.42 Leeds - Bradford Forster Square
xx.43 Blackpool North - York (fast Leeds - York)
xx.48 Leeds - Sheffield (via Rotherham, stopper)
xx.49 York - Blackpool North (fast York - Leeds)
xx.53 Leeds - Harrogate (additional stopper)
xx.56 Leeds - Selby
xx.56 Leeds - Skipton
xx.58 Leeds - Knottingley (via Castleford)

 

[Harvey10]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but does anybody know of any improvements for Streethouse and Doncaster?

Thank you

 

[Frothy]

As mentioned by others, the consultation is currently restricted to stakeholders, including Northern staff. The proposed departures from Leeds (Mon - Sat daytime) are:

Very interesting!
The biggest surprise for me is the additional York stopper being split out from the York-Blackpools.
But what of the Lancaster/Carlisle services?



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[YorkshireBear]

As mentioned by others, the consultation is currently restricted to stakeholders, including Northern staff. The proposed departures from Leeds (Mon - Sat daytime) are:

xx.03 Leeds - Nottingham (remains via Barnsley)
xx.03 Leeds - Ilkley
xx.08 Leeds - Huddersfield (via Brighouse)
xx.09 Leeds - Knaresborough (fast to Harrogate)
xx.12 Leeds - Bradford Forster Square
xx.19 Leeds - Manchester Airport (fast, extension of current xx.18)
xx.22 Leeds - Southport (via Brighouse, stopper, extension of current xx.26)
xx.22 Leeds - Doncaster
xx.23 Leeds - Harrogate (additional stopper)
xx.24 Leeds - York (additional, stopper)
xx.26 Leeds - Knottingley (additional, via Wakefield Westgate and Kirkgate)
xx.26 Leeds - Skipton
xx.30 Leeds - Sheffield (via Castleford, stopper)
xx.33 Leeds - Ilkley
xx.38 Leeds - Lincoln (extension of fast Sheffield via Barnsley service)
xx.39 Leeds - York (fast to Harrogate)
xx.42 Leeds - Chester (semi-fast, extension of current xx.51)
xx.42 Leeds - Bradford Forster Square
xx.43 Blackpool North - York (fast Leeds - York)
xx.48 Leeds - Sheffield (via Rotherham, stopper)
xx.49 York - Blackpool North (fast York - Leeds)
xx.53 Leeds - Harrogate (additional stopper)
xx.56 Leeds - Selby
xx.56 Leeds - Skipton
xx.58 Leeds - Knottingley (via Castleford)

Sorry just for clarification is this for next May?

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Very interesting!
The biggest surprise for me is the additional York stopper being split out from the York-Blackpools.
But what of the Lancaster/Carlisle services?



Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

From Leeds to Carlisle:

05:19
07:47
09:19
11:20
13:20
15:20
17:19
18:19

From Leeds to Lancaster:

07:19
08:19
10:20
12:20
14:20
17:50
19:18

 

[lejog]

About 5 local MP's and Northern got together and after several months of wrangling hammered out the compromise which was cost neutral, wasnt publicised. Perfectly within Northers power to negotiate as the franchise agreement is measured by frequencies between key points and doesnt specify actual routes the services have to take. There was nothing for example in the franchise agreement abou a Wigan-alderley edge service, just frequencies between each key point and Piccadilly.

Since you've changed "Northern promised" to "Northern can negotiate" we now seem to be in agreement.

I agree there's nothing in the train service requirements that would require contract change. However there's plenty of other things in the rather prescriptive franchise agreement that would require change, for instance the Train Plan showing which units are to be run in each service in the timetable.

There's also the question of the use of 319 Flexs as jcollins mentioned. I'm not sure if any commercial details have been published, but it is certainly in the contract that the DfT would pay for a solution if Wigan-Bolton, Stalybridge and/or Windermere electrification were delayed. Use of the Flexes outside these lines at the present time would undoubtably mean that the DfT would expect Northern to bear some of the development costs- even if there are any available. After one of these lines is electrified, then perhaps yes.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[Frothy]

From Leeds to Carlisle:

05:19
07:47
09:19
11:20
13:20
15:20
17:19
18:19

From Leeds to Lancaster:

07:19
08:19
10:20
12:20
14:20
17:50
19:18

Many thanks!
I thought they might have been put in a more standard hourly Leeds departure pattern and alternated between Lancaster/Carlisle.

Edit: ...as in fact appears to be the case. Although by the looks of things the 1919 to Ribblehead will depart at a different time, whenever that may be.

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[janb]

Do you have the times for the return services FROM Lancaster and Carlisle please???

Cheers!!!

From Lancaster
0648
0938
1038
1243
1443
1743
2030
2130 to Skipton

From Carlisle
0551
0927
1124
1340
1427
1627
1824
2019
(2145 from Ribblehead)

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Many thanks!
I thought they might have been put in a more standard hourly Leeds departure pattern and alternated between Lancaster/Carlisle.

Edit: ...as in fact appears to be the case. Although by the looks of things the 1919 to Ribblehead will depart at a different time, whenever that may be.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

19:49 Leeds to Ribblehead (SX)

 

[anti-pacer]

Can anyone tell me what a 319 "Flex" is please (in terms of how it differs from a 319)?

 

[lejog]

Porterbrook Leasing is pleased to announce that it has committed to deliver to Northern, a variant of a Class 319 electric train which is able to operate seamlessly over electrified and non-electrified routes, spreading the benefits of electrification to more rail users. The project is supported by Rail North, representing local authorities in the north of England.

The Class 319 Flex concept is designed to create a bi-mode train by fitting two diesel powered alternators, one under each of the driving trailer cars. The diesel alternators provide power to the existing traction and auxiliary equipment to allow the EMU to operate without an overhead or 3rd rail supply. The systems will provide power through the train’s DC bus, avoiding any significant changes to the existing equipment and creating a unit capable of operating from a number of different power sources whilst maintaining its full capabilities on electrified routes.

https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/news/...rn-to-introduce-bi-mode-class-319-flex-trains

You're getting 319s but electrification is delayed? Put a diesel generator in them!

 

[xotGD]

From Leeds to Carlisle:

05:19
07:47
09:19
11:20
13:20
15:20
17:19
18:19

From Leeds to Lancaster:

07:19
08:19
10:20
12:20
14:20
17:50
19:18

So the 18.06 becomes the 18.19. Bad news for me meaning 13 minutes later getting home from work.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

There may be others, but so far, I have only found the following.
15:42 Leeds - Ellesmere Port (Helsby 18:01)

07:15 & 18:22 Ellesmere Port - Leeds

That would make the service even worse than the current service.

It would make it worse but also make it a useful commuter service. Those times would suit many people very well, including me .


Thanks for the information.

 

[yorksrob]

From Lancaster
0648
0938
1038
1243
1443
1743
2030
2130 to Skipton

From Carlisle
0551
0927
1124
1340
1427
1627
1824
2019
(2145 from Ribblehead)

That 20:30 departure from Lancaster could prove extremely useful to me.

I'm a bit worried about the 21:45 from Ribblehead though, in particular whether it will still connect with the woeful evening services to Wakefield.

 

[lejog]

Could someone please post the times of the post 10pm services from Leeds to Wakefield Westgate and Kirkgate?

I know there were due to be significant improvements to these services and that Northern have delivered the extra late services on the Calder Valley line that were due, so I'm confident they've delivered the franchise requirements for late services to Wakefield.