Northern timetable plan for May 2018

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by Philip, 29 May 2017.

  1. Mathew S

    Mathew S Member

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    Well it would certainly be a serious step up from the Pacers that run on the Southport - Manchester service presently.
     
  2. mic505

    mic505 Member

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    That plan is still on. 16 x 170/4s cascaded to Northern from Scotrail by December 2018, with the first four released from Scotrail next month (two months early).
     
  3. Mathew S

    Mathew S Member

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    Is it just me that thinks it would be a little odd to use 100mph 170s on the Southport - Leeds and 75mph/90mph 15x units on the Manchester - Barrow/Windermere services?
     
  4. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    ^ Someone reported the first 170s will be used on Leeds to Chester until the 195s enter service, which will free up some 158s for the Barrow services until they also get new 195s.
     
  5. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    A lot of the proposed timetable changes seem questionable. Is Southport-Leeds a franchise requirement or just formed for operational convenience?
     
  6. Mathew S

    Mathew S Member

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    IIRC there's a franchise requirement for Southport - Hebden Bridge effectively hourly.
     
  7. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    The 158s are going to be very thinly spread from May, I'm not convinced there's going to be enough units to provide adequate capacity across the network
     
  8. Mathew S

    Mathew S Member

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    That would make more sense. Thanks.
     
  9. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Northernchris - Not a requirement set by DfT/Rail North but one that Arriva included in their bid so they'll need a very good reason if they want to change it now, same with Bradford to Nottingham or Bradford to Liverpool or Leeds to Lincoln.
     
  10. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Some lines which don't need 158s might have to use 150s instead. There's certainly no reason why Northern need to use 158s on all stops services in the Leeds area, while longer services get stuck with Pacers.
     
  11. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    Whilst you're correct, it's more about maintaining (and increasing) capacity. At the December timetable change a small but significant number of Leeds services lost capacity to the point that there's now some journeys which are leaving passengers behind. Reducing these further to a 150 will only add to the problem, so hopefully once the Manchester electrification is complete the bulk of the surplus DMUs will find their way across to West Yorkshire
     
  12. Mathew S

    Mathew S Member

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    There are still plenty of services which will continue to be DMUs and which need lengthening on this side of Manchester (peak times on the Southport and Atherton lines for a start).

    Very true, but if they don't need 90mph capable stock perhaps a 4-car 150 would be more appropriate than a 158? Then the 158 can be concentrated on the routes where higher speed can contribute to more robust timetables (eg. avoiding conflicts on the WCML / Chat Moss for the Barrow/Windermere trains).
     
  13. 47802

    47802 Established Member

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    I expect the random unit generator will be on overtime:lol: until Manchester- Preston finally gets done and the 195's start to come into service.
     
  14. Mathew S

    Mathew S Member

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    Posting this from the Blackpool-Manchester electrification thread. The key part timetabling-wise seems to be Para 8 where Northern say they have agreed with Network Rail, "weekend and overnight possessions throughout summer. This option protects our customers from significant disruption and we will crucially not be attempting to deliver something that is extremely high risk, but indeed adds certainty to future planning. It also provides us with the opportunity to deliver a ‘robust’ series of phased timetable improvements ensuring a seamless delivery of service improvements that will not impact negatively on our customers."

    That, to me, says that they're looking to implement as much of the planned May 2018 changes as they reasonably can, perhaps operating some sort of temporary timetable on the Bolton line, then introduce later the rest of the changes/enhancements when the infrastructure is in place to make it work.

     
  15. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    Indeed, 4 car 150s would be ideal on Calder Valley workings and may help with station dwell times. I'm assuming the 158s will be working the extended Leeds-Sheffield-Lincoln as they remain interworked with Leeds-Nottingham, and I'm also guessing the 158s will be in pairs on Barrow services so it will be interesting to see who the losers are. Of course this is also assuming Arriva continue with basing all the 158s at Neville Hill
     
  16. Mathew S

    Mathew S Member

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    Wouldn't surprise me to see some at least stabled overnight elsewhere. I think there's a 185 stabled at Barrow overnight currently, logic would dictate that will become a 158 (or pair of 158s).
     
  17. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    150s actually have more seats than 158s. OK they are in 3+2 formation but if short services are overcrowded they might be an improvement. The wider doors on 150s also help reduce delays at stations when trains are overcrowded.
     
  18. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    I never realised that!
     
  19. 47802

    47802 Established Member

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    I'm not sure I would put money on most of the Barrow services being double units, I would have Leeds-Sheffield-Lincoln as temp downgrade candidate, well the Leeds Sheffield bit given Lincoln is already as downgraded as you can get:lol:, but if they are still interworked with Nottingham's that's going to be difficult, although I guess they could end up with a temp mix of 158's and 150's, otherwise they have to find more 158's for that service.
     
    Last edited: 12 Jan 2018
  20. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    The highback chairs on 158's take up more room too so theres loads more standing/wheelchair space on the 150's with their bench seats even with 3+2, you can effectively fit 4 150 seat rows in the same space 3 158 rows occupy.
     
  21. fulmar

    fulmar Member

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    Currently two 185s stabled overnight at Barrow. Used to be four before TPE cut the Barrow/Windermere - Manchester Airports services so will probably require a similar number of whatever units are used to replace the 185s.
     
  22. lejog

    lejog Established Member

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    That would really go down well in the Calder Valley. Just as we are promised through services to the west, 90mph linespeeds, forthcoming new trains, what do we get - a new timetable with appallingly bunched services, increased journey times and downgraded trains.
     
  23. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    I thought Calder Valley services get a mix of 142s, 144s, 150s, 155s, 158s and even a daily 180 operated service at the Leeds end of the route. If the rumour that 170s will initially be used on Calder Valley services is true than Calder Valley could be the only route on the Northern network to get more modern rolling stock before the new trains enter service.
     
  24. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    Although the 150s are inferior to 158s the line desperately needs additional capacity. Northern shouldn't have been allowed to extend services across the Ordsall Chord as it has led to a reduction in carriages in and out of Leeds during the peaks.

    144s aren't allocated to Calder Valley routes anymore, but anything else can show up. The 180 is to boost capacity as the 2 services either side of it were reduced from 4 to 2 carriages.
     
  25. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    The first train extended beyond Victoria is the 08:50 arrival at Victoria from Leeds and the last one is the 15:38 arrival at Victoria, so they should have no effect on the total peak time capacity on Calder Valley services. The only change that could possibly be a direct result of that is that units have switched place e.g. a 3 car 158 is on what was previously a 2 car 158 diagram and vice versa.
     
  26. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    I can't imagine why the extension of a few off-peak journeys over the chord would result in a reduction of carriages in and out of Leeds during the peaks, since the Chord journeys haven't increased Northern's PVR at all.
    There appears to be general agreement that capacity into/out of Leeds has been reduced, but has Northern suggested any link with the Ordsall Chord?
     
  27. lejog

    lejog Established Member

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    It depends what you mean by Calder Valley services, but all the Blackpool-York services are 158s (as specified in the track access contract) and approx 50% of the Leeds-Victoria, the rest being 155s/150s. No 144s since they were removed from the Brighouse - Victoria services some years ago, and while 142s and even 2/3 car 153s have been turning up occasionally since the refurbishments started, I understand they are only diagrammed as strengthening units.

    Having checked the provisional May timetable in OTT, it shows all the Blackpool-Yorks continuing as 158s. The Leeds-Brighouse-Southport services no longer interwork with the Bradford services, and are shown as 150/153/155/156, so not unexpectedly would lose their 158s. All the Leeds-Chester services are shown as 158s and the Leeds-Man Airport as 150/3/5/6. But before you celebrate, these 2 services normally interwork at Leeds, so apparently metamorphose at the platform!

    The 170s on the Calder Valley extensions was just a rumour, perhaps using them on the Cumbria services makes more sense.
     
  28. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Like has been said on numerous times what services are timed for and don't indicate what will actually be used. All it does is gives a clue as to what is the slowest stock which can be used without causing a problem. There's no reason why Northern couldn't time services to be 75mph 15xs and use 158s.

    100mph units on the Cumbria services makes sense. However, it needs to be remembered that:
    1. There are only 4 x 170s expected to join by May. Given not every train can be in service every day that would mean something else would have to be used alongside them.
    2. West side crews don't sign 158s or 170s but 158s are more similar to what they already sign.
    3. The crews who work Leeds-Chester will probably also work at least part of Leeds-Southport.
     
  29. 175001

    175001 Member

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    "West side crews don't sign 158s"

    One link at Man Vic and Blackpool North crews do.

    The rest of Man Vic links are to be trained or refreshed on them for the May timetable change
     
  30. Mathew S

    Mathew S Member

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    There was talk of Barrow crews also signing 158s, hence my confidence they're going to see use on that route.
     

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