Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[pemma]

"West side crews don't sign 158s"

One link at Man Vic and Blackpool North crews do.

The rest of Man Vic links are to be trained or refreshed on them for the May timetable change

Yes I should have said most west side crews don't sign 158s. Do the Victoria crews who sign 158s also sign the Airport?

 

[pemma]

There was talk of Barrow crews also signing 158s, hence my confidence they're going to see use on that route.

Also worth noting the planning permission for the Blackburn depot said the plan was to store 46m and 69m trains there.

 

[Bovverboy]

Also worth noting the planning permission for the Blackburn depot said the plan was to store 46m and 69m trains there.

A 156+153 combination is a 69m train and there are plenty of those doing Manchester-Bolton-Clitheroe atm, so I don't think that the intention to stable 69m trains at Blackburn quite proves that 3-car 158s are going to be stabled there, but I accept that they might be, sooner or later.

 

[pemma]

A 156+153 combination is a 69m train and there are plenty of those doing Manchester-Bolton-Clitheroe atm, so I don't think that the intention to stable 69m trains at Blackburn quite proves that 3-car 158s are going to be stabled there, but I accept that they might be, sooner or later.

The fact that Clitheroe line platforms are to be extended to take 5 x 23m, while the 153s are leaving suggests either 158s or 195s will be used on the Clitheroe line, with 158s sounding like the more likely option.

 

[Bovverboy]

Talking of 158s, do any Northern examples currently work west of Manchester Victoria, i.e. to Wigan Wallgate, or beyond? I recall travelling on one from Swinton (GM) to Vic, probably a couple of years or so ago.

 

[Mathew S]

Talking of 158s, do any Northern examples currently work west of Manchester Victoria, i.e. to Wigan Wallgate, or beyond? I recall travelling on one from Swinton (GM) to Vic, probably a couple of years or so ago.

Certainly not through Wigan, other than perhaps the very rare occasion as a test or something of that nature. Only time I've ever seen one west of Manchester is on a Blackpool / York service.

 

[Eccles1983]

158's dont go west (oxford road excepted)

But the link that signs 158's doesnt sign the airport - although a lot of route learning is going on as it stands.

 

[175001]

Yes I should have said most west side crews don't sign 158s. Do the Victoria crews who sign 158s also sign the Airport?

Yes we do. All links sign the airport

 

[Bovverboy]

158's dont go west (oxford road excepted).

I can assure you that it was a 158 I travelled on, although, thinking back, it was probably more than 'a couple of years or so' ago, I've lived in Salford for nine years now, it could have been at any time within that period, I suppose.

 

[Philip]

I can assure you that it was a 158 I travelled on, although, thinking back, it was probably more than 'a couple of years or so' ago, I've lived in Salford for nine years now, it could have been at any time within that period, I suppose.

There was a period when 158s (I think ex-Central ones) worked some Manchester Airport to Southport services, but I'm pretty sure these were on summer Saturdays in 2005 and maybe 2006 and so it may have been diverted via Atherton if works were taking place on the Bolton line. Also TPE and before that FNW occasionally used 158s on their Manchester-Blackpool/Cumbria services but that too hasn't happened since 2006. Neither of these would normally stop at Swinton mind.

Class 158s haven't really been a mainstay on North West based services since around 2003.

 

[Mathew S]

I can assure you that it was a 158 I travelled on, although, thinking back, it was probably more than 'a couple of years or so' ago, I've lived in Salford for nine years now, it could have been at any time within that period, I suppose.

I don't doubt it. Northerns's random unit allocation being legendary as it is, and the Atherton line having seen many the diversion over the years, nothing is impossible.

 

[158756]

The fact that Clitheroe line platforms are to be extended to take 5 x 23m, while the 153s are leaving suggests either 158s or 195s will be used on the Clitheroe line, with 158s sounding like the more likely option.

How many of these longer trains are ever expected to run? Northern aren't awash with spare stock, and what new stock they get has to replace the pacers and provide additional services. I'd be very surprised to see a 5 car Northern train at Blackburn in the foreseeable future.

In the provisional May timetables a train from the Blackburn depot does appear to go onto Blackpool-York so there would be a 158 there.

 

[lejog]

How many of these longer trains are ever expected to run? Northern aren't awash with spare stock, and what new stock they get has to replace the pacers and provide additional services. I'd be very surprised to see a 5 car Northern train at Blackburn in the foreseeable future.

All of them are due to be running by the end of 2019 according to the Franchise Agreement, whether Network Rail can lengthen platforms by then is the question as the Enhancements Plan is currently showing tbc for the completion date for the platform lengthening projects.

 

[Philip]

I don't doubt it. Northerns's random unit allocation being legendary as it is, and the Atherton line having seen many the diversion over the years, nothing is impossible.

I find it very hard to believe for anything within the last 12-13 years. Only Wigan, Kirkby and Southport to Victoria services stop at Swinton; diverted trains don't and I'd be amazed if anything other than a diversion brought a 158 - it'd be quite a sight to see one during the day on the Bolton line as it is! Put it this way 175s have been seen on the Atherton line far more than 158s have over the last 15 years or so!

This 'random unit generator' thing is only really for 14xs and Sprinters, since I don't think all the links sign the 158s.

 

[northernchris]

The first train extended beyond Victoria is the 08:50 arrival at Victoria from Leeds and the last one is the 15:38 arrival at Victoria, so they should have no effect on the total peak time capacity on Calder Valley services. The only change that could possibly be a direct result of that is that units have switched place e.g. a 3 car 158 is on what was previously a 2 car 158 diagram and vice versa.

The allocations have changed, and whilst the first unit doesn't arrive MCO until 0855 it does mean each semi-fast Leeds-Manchester Victoria now takes an extra hour to complete a round trip. It also means the unit which arrives Victoria around 0845 no longer forms the 0848 return, which instead looks to use a unit which arrives from Stalybridge. I suspect the morning peaks have also changed due to different finishing locations for units from the previous day.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I'm not sure I would put money on most of the Barrow services being double units, I would have Leeds-Sheffield-Lincoln as temp downgrade candidate, well the Leeds Sheffield bit given Lincoln is already as downgraded as you can get, but if they are still interworked with Nottingham's that's going to be difficult, although I guess they could end up with a temp mix of 158's and 150's, otherwise they have to find more 158's for that service.

I know exactly where Northern could get some 158's from - off GWR's Cardiff to Portsmouth services and whatever Scotrail's got.

Personally I think Northern should do what GWR has done on the Heart of Wessex and Wessex Mainline services, diagram certain units on certain services.

 

[Roose]

It has been suggested that Barrow drivers are to be trained on 158s when the suggested Class 68 diagram, allegedly crewed by DRS, is introduced. May just be rumour, of course.

 

[Mathew S]

It has been suggested that Barrow drivers are to be trained on 158s when the suggested Class 68 diagram, allegedly crewed by DRS, is introduced. May just be rumour, of course.

I knew I'd heard something like that but couldn't for the life of me remember what it was. Thanks

 

[Ianno87]

I don't doubt it. Northerns's random unit allocation being legendary as it is, and the Atherton line having seen many the diversion over the years, nothing is impossible.

158s became semi-regular on Airport-Blackpool/Barrow workings in latter FNW days (c. 2002/2003).

 

[Bovverboy]

Talking of 158s, do any Northern examples currently work west of Manchester Victoria, i.e. to Wigan Wallgate, or beyond? I recall travelling on one from Swinton (GM) to Vic, probably a couple of years or so ago.

The above was operating a scheduled service, one of the 2tph which stop at Swinton, and was late afternoon/early evening, i.e. the sort of time which would now count as 'peak'. I can't remember what the ultimate destination was, but I don't think it was Victoria.
Have there never been any through trains from Wigan Wallgate to, say, Leeds?
I have narrowed the time frame down to no earlier than late 2009.

 

[Loop & Link]

This 'random unit generator' thing is only really for 14xs and Sprinters, since I don't think all the links sign the 158s.

There is no ‘random unit generator’ I know it’s used tongue-in-cheek, but there will be always be a root cause as to why there is sometimes incorrect traction to diagram.

 

[Mathew S]

There is no ‘random unit generator’ I know it’s used tongue-in-cheek, but there will be always be a root cause as to why there is sometimes incorrect traction to diagram.

I know
Meant, very much, as you suggest, as a tongue in cheek comment on the seemingly changeable nature of what can turn up on any given service. One of the trains I often catch, for example, is the ~1000 Pemberton (Kirkby) to Blackburn, which can be any one of a 142, 150/1 or /2, or a 156, or a combination of any two of those when it's 4 cars. To the layperson, it appears both random, and a huge difference in quality from a 142 to a 156; although I'm sure we all know that allocations are made for a reason.

 

[175001]

A 158 made its way to Clitheroe a few months back when there was a but if disruption on the Caldervale line, hell even a 155 has been up there but that was years ago.

 

[pemma]

How many of these longer trains are ever expected to run? Northern aren't awash with spare stock, and what new stock they get has to replace the pacers and provide additional services. I'd be very surprised to see a 5 car Northern train at Blackburn in the foreseeable future.

In the provisional May timetables a train from the Blackburn depot does appear to go onto Blackpool-York so there would be a 158 there.

The platform lengthening plan indicates the maximum length of train Northern plan to run. I seem to recall there's also a mention of 5 x 23m on the Atherton line - that might mean there's 5 car workings everyday or it might mean Northern want the provision to allow them to use 5 car for when special events are on e.g. Southport Air Show and Flower Show.

 

[lejog]

The platform lengthening plan indicates the maximum length of train Northern plan to run. I seem to recall there's also a mention of 5 x 23m on the Atherton line - that might mean there's 5 car workings everyday or it might mean Northern want the provision to allow them to use 5 car for when special events are on e.g. Southport Air Show and Flower Show.

The Franchise Agreement explicitly states that the changes to be made under the Train/Platform Lengthening projects are being made to enable Northern to meet their peak hour capacity obligations into Manchester, Leeds and other cities. I don't think the DfT are generous enough to fund platform lengthening for shows at Southport. Aren't the 170s supposedly destined for the Southport line 3*23m? (Edit Yes but they may not reach Southport in the peaks.) All this may have changed anyway if as reported, the peak hour services to/from Manchester are to be 769s.

 

[pemma]

The Franchise Agreement explicitly states that the changes to be made under the Train/Platform Lengthening projects are being made to enable Northern to meet their peak hour capacity obligations into Manchester, Leeds and other cities. I don't think the DfT are generous enough to fund platform lengthening for shows at Southport. Aren't the 170s supposedly destined for the Southport line 3*23m? All this may have changed anyway if as reported, the peak hour services to/from Manchester are to be 769s.

Southport to Wigan to Manchester will be half-hourly - only the hourly service continuing to Leeds will get 170s and as 158s and 170s can operate in multiple the use of 170s doesn't rule a 170+158 on a peak time working.

I thought the Southport-Alderley Edge morning service and the return evening service (both via Bolton not Atherton) would part of a 4 car 150 diagram, while the majority of Wigan-Alderley Edge services (and Wigan-Stalybridge) would be 769s. They'll be an additional Wigan-Victoria via Atherton in the morning peak and the reverse in the evening peak to compensate for missing Southport services on the Atherton route.

 

[Kieran1990]

In relation to the Class 158’s on the NW Regionals-> where are Northern pulling these extra 158s from to operate MAN-Cumbria and extreme Leeds-Sheff through to Lincoln?
A bit out of the loop on the stock coming to northern over the next couple of months.

 

[pemma]

In relation to the Class 158’s on the NW Regionals-> where are Northern pulling these extra 158s from to operate MAN-Cumbria and extreme Leeds-Sheff through to Lincoln?
A bit out of the loop on the stock coming to northern over the next couple of months.

Northern have secured 2 extra 158s from Scotrail, if the 4 x (3 car) 170s also arrive from Scotrail as expected and are deployed on Leeds-Chester services (as expected) then they can be direct replacement for 2 x 3 car 158s (the Chester extension will require 2 extra units.)

 

[lejog]

Southport to Wigan to Manchester will be half-hourly - only the hourly service continuing to Leeds will get 170s and as 158s and 170s can operate in multiple the use of 170s doesn't rule a 170+158 on a peak time working.

Except the Victoria service in the morning peak appears to continue to Blackburn, not Leeds. So unlikely to see 170s at Southport in the morning peak.

I thought the Southport-Alderley Edge morning service and the return evening service (both via Bolton not Atherton) would part of a 4 car 150 diagram, while the majority of Wigan-Alderley Edge services (and Wigan-Stalybridge) would be 769s. They'll be an additional Wigan-Victoria via Atherton in the morning peak and the reverse in the evening peak to compensate for missing Southport services on the Atherton route.

Okay then, whether its a 4 car 150 or a 769, it still isn't 5*23m, so as I said the platform lengthening requirement may have changed.

 

[Philip]

158s became semi-regular on Airport-Blackpool/Barrow workings in latter FNW days (c. 2002/2003).

I thought 175s were the main stock on these routes in the latter days?