Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[pemma]

Except the Victoria service in the morning peak appears to continue to Blackburn, not Leeds. So unlikely to see 170s at Southport in the morning peak.

Okay then, whether its a 4 car 150 or a 769, it still isn't 5*23m, so as I said the platform lengthening requirement may have changed.

I'm pretty sure the lengthened platforms weren't due to be in place for the December 17 recast (postponed to May 18) so I don't think you can draw accurate conclusions from looking at a subject to change timetable for May 18 on OTT, especially considering most of the 170s will still be with Scotrail and it's rumoured the few that will have arrived will be used on another service until 195s enter service. We also don't know if the Alderley Edge to Wigan/Southport service will continue long term or whether it's an interim measure.

There are still 2 x evening peak services to Southport from Victoria which will originate from Leeds.

 

[Mathew S]

We also don't know if the Alderley Edge to Wigan/Southport service will continue long term or whether it's an interim measure.

Certainly not a requirement (unlike Southport - Hebden Bridge). I'd imagine just a convenient combination of two services which avoids terminations at Victoria/Picadilly. If it works and turns out reliable, then I can't see it changing; if it doesn't, maybe Northern will revisit it. If nothing else, it's a service which could have been tailor made for the 769s.

 

[pemma]

Certainly not a requirement (unlike Southport - Hebden Bridge). I'd imagine just a convenient combination of two services which avoids terminations at Victoria/Picadilly. If it works and turns out reliable, then I can't see it changing; if it doesn't, maybe Northern will revisit it. If nothing else, it's a service which could have been tailor made for the 769s.

It's part of a work around due to the lack of wires between Wigan and Bolton and between Manchester and Stalybridge, with the plan being to inter-work it with a Wigan-Stalybridge service. If at a future recast some of the missing wires are in place I imagine Northern will re-examine the available options. It's possible it might not even happen in the first place if Northern re-examine options due to wiring on the Manchester-Bolton-Preston route being delayed further! The 769s (if available) might be needed for Manchester Airport to Blackpool.

 

[158756]

Certainly not a requirement (unlike Southport - Hebden Bridge). I'd imagine just a convenient combination of two services which avoids terminations at Victoria/Picadilly. If it works and turns out reliable, then I can't see it changing; if it doesn't, maybe Northern will revisit it. If nothing else, it's a service which could have been tailor made for the 769s.

2tph between Bolton and Stockport was a requirement however. They don't have to go to Wigan or Alderley Edge though. (Blackpool-Macclesfield is the other service planned, replacing Preston-Hazel Grove, but that will be very difficult to run without electrification being completed)

 

[Starmill]

a new timetable with appallingly bunched services, increased journey times

As I said this is a common theme emerging here!

IIRC there's a franchise requirement for Southport - Hebden Bridge effectively hourly.

I think it is a requirement but it was Wigan to Hebden Bridge.

As for the 158 debate, the last stopping train from Preston to Manchester Victoria used to be a 158 for many years.

 

[Mathew S]

I think it is a requirement but it was Wigan to Hebden Bridge.

Definitely Southport - Hebden Bridge. The line from the TSR document is, "Twelve services departing from Southport to Manchester shall also call at Hebden Bridge."
The attached is TSR2 which relates to this planned timetable change, but the same line is also in TSR3 which is the December 2019 plan.
Both are available to download from this page: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/northern-rail-2016-rail-franchise-agreement

 

[northernchris]

The 769s (if available) might be needed for Manchester Airport to Blackpool.

What's planned to work the Airport-Blackpool after May?

 

[Mathew S]

What's planned to work the Airport-Blackpool after May?

Now there's a question
I don't imagine Northern know the answer to that themselves yet, given the added delay to electrification. If I had to guess, I'd say 15x units if they choose to still run them via Bolton, possibly 319s if they run them via Golborne/Chat Moss. I doubt there will be enough 769s ready to run the service by May, much as I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

 

[Chester1]

What's planned to work the Airport-Blackpool after May?

It will probably need to be pathed for 150s. They are the only units that Northern will definitely have in sufficient numbers in May and are the benchmark for 769s on diesel power. If the line is electrified before December then 319s can be introduced with an excessive level of dwell and recovery time.

 

[Starmill]

Definitely Southport - Hebden Bridge. The line from the TSR document is, "Twelve services departing from Southport to Manchester shall also call at Hebden Bridge."
The attached is TSR2 which relates to this planned timetable change, but the same line is also in TSR3 which is the December 2019 plan.
Both are available to download from this page: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/northern-rail-2016-rail-franchise-agreement

I am aware that this is in the Bid Timetable and was part of the franchise bid, but Northernchris was asking why that is, and if it's just for operational convenience was mentioned on the basis that it seemed a bit questionable.

I have been unable to trace the reference to Hebden Bridge to Wigan services in the tender requirements - although the ones to Manchester Airport and Warrington are there. This therefore suggests that Arriva view services from West Lancashire to the Calder Valley via Manchester as a commercial imperative, rather than an operational or contractual one. Who knows is the answer!

 

[Mathew S]

Who knows is the answer!

Yep

 

[LOL The Irony]

What's planned to work the Airport-Blackpool after May?

Probably still the usual traction of 156's.

 

[fulmar]

It has been suggested that Barrow drivers are to be trained on 158s.....May just be rumour, of course.

It's not just a rumour.

 

[Skiptonjohn]

I was interested to read the feeds about rolling stock for the Leeds to Morcambe services. This is very much a “Cinderella” service and has always been at the butt end when rolling stock is allocated. It isn’t heavily used and therefore class 150, 155 or 156 units would be adequate following the withdrawal of the “Nodding Donkey” pacer units.

The Leeds Skipton Settle Carlisle route, however should be afforded better quality rolling stock. The continued use of class 158 units in the future would be palletable but during the summer months, 2 car units are inadequate. I was personally surprised that the route was not included in the Northern Connect services. Maybe this route would benefit from the use of class 170 or class 172 units - there will be surplus class 172 units from the GOBLIN route in a few months. Why can’t they be cascaded?

 

[Mathew S]

I was interested to read the feeds about rolling stock for the Leeds to Morcambe services. This is very much a “Cinderella” service and has always been at the butt end when rolling stock is allocated. It isn’t heavily used and therefore class 150, 155 or 156 units would be adequate following the withdrawal of the “Nodding Donkey” pacer units.

The Leeds Skipton Settle Carlisle route, however should be afforded better quality rolling stock. The continued use of class 158 units in the future would be palletable but during the summer months, 2 car units are inadequate. I was personally surprised that the route was not included in the Northern Connect services. Maybe this route would benefit from the use of class 170 or class 172 units - there will be surplus class 172 units from the GOBLIN route in a few months. Why can’t they be cascaded?

The 172/0 units from the GOBLIN don't have gangways so routinely operating them in multiple is worth avoiding, imho. I also don't know how the number of seats compares with a 158, but there are certainly fewer than on a 150 due to extra standing space having been designed in.

I don't know whether there will be enough 158s for the S&C to remain a (largely) pure 158 service while so many will be needed on the connect routes?

 

[47802]

The 172/0 units from the GOBLIN don't have gangways so routinely operating them in multiple is worth avoiding, imho. I also don't know how the number of seats compares with a 158, but there are certainly fewer than on a 150 due to extra standing space having been designed in.

I don't know whether there will be enough 158s for the S&C to remain a (largely) pure 158 service while so many will be needed on the connect routes?

Arn't some S&C working 158 plus dogbox and the odd Paired 158, 172/0 are going to the West Midlands franchise, 195's should free up a number of 158's from there current working including the 3 car ones which might replace the 158+dogbox combo plus there are 8 additional 158's from Scotrail so there ought to be enough 158's continue to work S&C once all the 195's arrive, plus of course both the Lancaster/Morcambe and S&C timetable are being significantly recast in May

 

[Skiptonjohn]

When you say ‘dogbox’, are you referring to the use of class 153 units on certain formations? I don’t think I have seen a 153 for some time on Settle Carlisle services.

 

[47802]

When you say ‘dogbox’, are you referring to the use of class 153 units on certain formations? I don’t think I have seen a 153 for some time on Settle Carlisle services.

Yes and the last time I was on the S&C about 5 months ago there was a 153+158 on the return service.

 

[Halish Railway]

The 08:49 Leeds to Carlisle is usually a 158 + 153 (with the 153 at the Leeds end).

Tbh I hope that there will be a few double pairings of 158's on the S&C as the more even two-hourly service will attract more tourists who want flexibility. The new 17:20 from Leeds to Carlisle (from May 2018) should definitely be a 4 car 158 (maybe six car when the platforms are extended).

 

[_toommm_]

The 08:49 Leeds to Carlisle is usually a 158 + 153 (with the 153 at the Leeds end).

Tbh I hope that there will be a few double pairings of 158's on the S&C as the more even two-hourly service will attract more tourists who want flexibility. The new 17:20 from Leeds to Carlisle (from May 2018) should definitely be a 4 car 158 (maybe six car when the platforms are extended).

Definitely booked to be a 3-car. It wasn't this Saturday leading to a cramped 158.

 

[Charlie150275]

I was interested to read the feeds about rolling stock for the Leeds to Morcambe services. This is very much a “Cinderella” service and has always been at the butt end when rolling stock is allocated. It isn’t heavily used and therefore class 150, 155 or 156 units would be adequate following the withdrawal of the “Nodding Donkey” pacer units.

The Leeds Skipton Settle Carlisle route, however should be afforded better quality rolling stock. The continued use of class 158 units in the future would be palletable but during the summer months, 2 car units are inadequate. I was personally surprised that the route was not included in the Northern Connect services. Maybe this route would benefit from the use of class 170 or class 172 units - there will be surplus class 172 units from the GOBLIN route in a few months. Why can’t they be cascaded?

Im Hoping Leeds to Morecambe will eventually get 156s or even better, 158s, Has been rumoured that 2 car 158s will be put on that line. Its my local line

 

[Bantamzen]

I was interested to read the feeds about rolling stock for the Leeds to Morcambe services. This is very much a “Cinderella” service and has always been at the butt end when rolling stock is allocated. It isn’t heavily used and therefore class 150, 155 or 156 units would be adequate following the withdrawal of the “Nodding Donkey” pacer units.

The Leeds Skipton Settle Carlisle route, however should be afforded better quality rolling stock. The continued use of class 158 units in the future would be palletable but during the summer months, 2 car units are inadequate. I was personally surprised that the route was not included in the Northern Connect services. Maybe this route would benefit from the use of class 170 or class 172 units - there will be surplus class 172 units from the GOBLIN route in a few months. Why can’t they be cascaded?

I've said it before, but if someone where to put future spare 185s and the S&C together, there might be a way to improve the stock, possibly improve journey times, and maybe even expand the route for certain paths into Glasgow. Plus Northern would get the added bonus of recently refurbished stock which will easily be up to Connect standards, so the brand could in theory be expanded onto the S&C where it seems to be a natural fit given the semi-fast nature of the route especially through to Skipton from Leeds. And thinking even further outside the box, could the 185s also be cleared for Carlisle-Newcastle-Middlesbrough, giving that line an upgrade beyond the 158s? This then might clear more 158s to run routes like Morecombe, and even strengthen to 2*2 if the need ever arose.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

I know these are subject to change but the Newcastle to Carlisle timetables look interesting.

http://www.opentraintimes.com/location/HEX/2018-05-21/16:22?empty_passenger=on&non_passenger=on&passenger=on&show_call=on&show_pass=on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=✓

Had a good look through these yesterday, appears to be a good few missing?

I’m sure the original plan had a rise from 15 each direction to 28. Could only find 21 from Carlisle and 25 from Newcastle.

Wonder how they’ll announce them at Carlisle when Morpeth is the final destination!

 

[YorkshireLad]

Good to see that according to Opentraintimes Kiveton Bridge gets the peak time services to Sheffield back

 

[sprinterguy]

Maybe this route would benefit from the use of class 170 or class 172 units - there will be surplus class 172 units from the GOBLIN route in a few months. Why can’t they be cascaded?

The GOBLIN class 172 units are being cascaded - To West Midlands Trains in December (EDIT: Just noticed that this has already been mentioned above).

 

[stu99]

Had a good look through these yesterday, appears to be a good few missing?

I’m sure the original plan had a rise from 15 each direction to 28. Could only find 21 from Carlisle and 25 from Newcastle.

Wonder how they’ll announce them at Carlisle when Morpeth is the final destination!

There are some strange stopping plans as this 2A02 0647 Carlisle - Morpeth is looking like it will replace the 2N04 06:28 Carlisle to Newcastle, but does not stop at Wetheral, Brampton, Bardon Mill or Haydn Bridge which the old service does, however the new 2N10 Dumfries to Newcastle which leaves carlisle at 06:57 does however I would of thought that would be too late for people commuting elsewhere in Newcastle for work and schools.

I think some will get added. They could announce it as Morpeth via Newcastle...

 

[DanNCL]

It looks like 2N20 1025 Carlisle to Newcastle will instead depart at 1004 and run through to Danby. https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y21693/2018-05-21 . It would be interesting to see how that is announced at Carlisle...

It also looks like the services jointly operated with ScotRail to Glasgow will no longer operate, though these could have just not been added yet

 

[stu99]

It looks like 2N20 1025 Carlisle to Newcastle will instead depart at 1004 and run through to Danby. https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y21693/2018-05-21 . It would be interesting to see how that is announced at Carlisle...

It also looks like the services jointly operated with ScotRail to Glasgow will no longer operate, though these could have just not been added yet

https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/G26340/2018-05-21 , This servies is from Glasgow Central to Morpeth which is the only one listed yet that comes Glasgow, it could be either removed and it will come from Carlisle or other will be added later, or it could be the only one.

 

[pemma]

Had a good look through these yesterday, appears to be a good few missing?

I’m sure the original plan had a rise from 15 each direction to 28. Could only find 21 from Carlisle and 25 from Newcastle.

Wonder how they’ll announce them at Carlisle when Morpeth is the final destination!

Not all services are on OTT yet.

 

[DanNCL]

https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/G26340/2018-05-21 , This servies is from Glasgow Central to Morpeth which is the only one listed yet that comes Glasgow, it could be either removed and it will come from Carlisle or other will be added later, or it could be the only one.

That looks like it will be a ScotRail unit seeing as it works in to Glasgow from East Kilbride. Seems strange that there are no other services though...

The 0646 from Newcastle to Glasgow Central seems to have been replaced by this service https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y20031/2018-05-21 from Middlesbrough to Carlisle, leaving Newcastle at 0659. I would be surprised if this replacement service uses a ScotRail unit