Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Deerfold]

There is a version (a very, very draft version) of an upcoming Northern timetable which shows some services as reservable. I had put it down to an error in the data the timetable is generated from but, of course, it may not be.

All the ones at the moment that have Advance tickets available show as reservable. Of course that doesn't mean you can actually reserve a seat.

 

[TUC]

According to RSH, Northern will be running a sleeper service from Wakefield Kirkgate to Wakefield Westgate at 0758 on weekdays

 

[BMIFlyer]

According to RSH, Northern will be running a sleeper service from Wakefield Kirkgate to Wakefield Westgate at 0758 on weekdays

 

[Chester1]

Doubt it. One of the additional reasons for losing the stop at MCO is due to the 8 car trains not fitting on the platform and the resulting issues this causes when boarding Northbound services.

It is frustrating that the government continues to delay extending Oxford Road and building 2 extra through platforms at Piccadilly. I think there is a decent argument for doing Oxford Road first even though that removes platform 5 and therefore would mean removing 2tph currently using P13 and P14 to allow CLC stoppers to be extended to Piccadilly. 12tph would be a reasonable frequency for both Oxford Road and Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14, its more than they currently have! 8 coaches really should be able to properly fit into Oxford Road. I am generally in favour of more frequent but shorter services but there is a point when it becomes stupid. I will be pleasantly surprised if the Castlefield corridor can reliably handle 11tph + 2tph from next month.

 

[greatkingrat]

According to RSH, Northern will be running a sleeper service from Wakefield Kirkgate to Wakefield Westgate at 0758 on weekdays

It runs all the way from Knottingley to Leeds if you need a slightly longer nap. Booked a Pacer though, so you might not get that much sleep!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y23747/2018/05/30/advanced

 

[xotGD]

It runs all the way from Knottingley to Leeds if you need a slightly longer nap. Booked a Pacer though, so you might not get that much sleep!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y23747/2018/05/30/advanced

Interesting that it is shown arriving into Platform 6C at Leeds. Looks like a good way to snarl up virtually the entire station.

 

[Starmill]

I'll be very annoyed if Northern do make cycle reservations compulsory. I'm slightly annoyed at tpe but at least they mostly stop at large station's ticket offices where a reservation can be made. However, Northern serve hundreds of sheafs in the backend of nowhere. Sure a reservation can be made 10 minutes before but how are you going to do it? You could phone customer services but you'd still be on hold when your train leaves.

Really, in my view this is only acceptable if Northern create a system where reservations can be made automatically online and through their app, there would need to be some system to make sure someone doesn't go and reserve a space on every train, while still allowing people flexible tickets - I'm not saying it's impossible, but I have no idea how that could be achieved (ideas?). But even these still is poor, many of their stations along the Hope Valley (and I'm sure elsewhere) don't have phone signal. And increasing amount of these have WiFi though.

Random question, are they any routes at the moment where cycle reservations are cumposary bit seat reservations aren't available? Or does anyone know if Northern also plan on introduction seating reservations on all their trains as well?

Fundamentally there are two options here. One is that cycles become reservation compulsory.

The other is a Cycle Policy that looks like this:

Safety is important to us, so we do have some restrictions on where and when bikes can be transported on our trains.

Even when there isn’t a restriction we can’t guarantee that your bike will be accepted on the train, as space is allocated on a ‘first come, first served’ basis. Our staff have the right to refuse a bicycle if there is no space for it to be transported safely. Please be considerate of other passengers at all times.

Restrictions apply during peak weekday travel times at stations shown on the bicycle restrictions map. Bicycles cannot join or leave trains bound for London Waterloo, Reading, Hook, Alton, Guildford and Dorking, due to arrive at London Waterloo between 07:15 and 10:00 inclusive or departing from London Waterloo between 16:45 and 19:00.

Stations between Clapham Junction, Feltham/Strawberry Hill and the Hounslow loop cannot allow bicycles to join or leave trains which are due to leave Clapham Junction between 07:45 and 09:00.

or this

Non-folding bikes cannot be carried on any London Overground train between 07:30-09:00 and 16:00-19:00 Mondays to Fridays (except Public Holidays).

 

[skifans]

Fundamentally there are two options here. One is that cycles become reservation compulsory.

The other is a Cycle Policy that looks like this:



or this

Yeah, I agree. Norther's cycle policy is very similar to that is SWR (which you quoted) at the moment, if you don't reserve a bike, you have to reasonably expect it might not get on. Maybe in an ideal world you could have reservations but they would be optional (like how seating reservations work on most services). You don't need one, but if you don't you have to consider that there may not be space, I suppose its a little more aurward for what would happen if someone makes a reservation but doesn't show then for seats due to the higher loading/unloading time.

Also, does anyone know what Northern hope to achieve buy doing this - unless it is simply to have less bikes on their trains. Will Northern do anything different if they know no bikes will be on board (say, increasing the number of seats which can be reserved or selling more advances...) - but if there is only 10 minuets there isn't much notice for anything to be done about it.

 

[darloscott]

Interesting additions to the North East timetable are two empty runs from Darlington to Tees Yard & back to fuel units on an evening, presumably suggesting some diagrams will end up being away from Heaton for an extended period of time.

 

[323235]

Yeah, I agree. Norther's cycle policy is very similar to that is SWR (which you quoted) at the moment, if you don't reserve a bike, you have to reasonably expect it might not get on. Maybe in an ideal world you could have reservations but they would be optional (like how seating reservations work on most services). You don't need one, but if you don't you have to consider that there may not be space, I suppose its a little more aurward for what would happen if someone makes a reservation but doesn't show then for seats due to the higher loading/unloading time.

Also, does anyone know what Northern hope to achieve buy doing this - unless it is simply to have less bikes on their trains. Will Northern do anything different if they know no bikes will be on board (say, increasing the number of seats which can be reserved or selling more advances...) - but if there is only 10 minuets there isn't much notice for anything to be done about it.

Northern's cycle policy on my line at peak time is cram as many as will fit - usually around 10 occupying the wheelchair / bicycle space.

 

[pemma]

Northern's cycle policy on my line at peak time is cram as many as will fit - usually around 10 occupying the wheelchair / bicycle space.

A lot of guards seem to turn a blind eye to additional bicycles being taken on board and a few even turn a blind eye to bikes being stored in inappropriate places - like blocking the doors on the right hand side of the train (as you face the front) which then causes issues at stations which don't have 2 platforms. I've only ever seen a guard refuse to take bicycles once and that was when a group of around 10 teenagers all turned up with bikes at Navigation Road station.

 

[Harpers Tate]

...around 10....

If there is that level of demand, then (IMO) there should be that level of supply. Presumably, every one of these is accompanied by a fare paying passenger. Presumably a proportion of these, were they unable to bring their bike, would travel by other means (car, most likely). Presumably that would represent a loss of fare revenue.

A lot of years ago, I lived 1.5 miles from a station, and I worked 1.5 miles from another station. I took my bike on the train for the commute. There was never any risk of not getting on; there was room aplenty. And there would typically be maybe 15 of us doing similar trips.

If I were to need to do the same journey today, I'd probably drive. It would take too long to walk it all, and there would (presumably) be the risk I'd not get on the train with my bike.

No benefit to anyone, really.

 

[WatcherZero]

I believe the cycle reservations will be primarily through their ticket app, possible could also be done online when booking.

Interestingly the owners of the 153 are pushing that post DDA requirements they could be used as driving trailers for extra (non accessible) seating or as guards vans for cycle/luggage/parcel storage. Cant see there would be much demand other than a few select places for that kind of function though.

 

[splashoutradio]

Back to the timetabling, if it's of any use, the www.railwaydata.co.uk timetables have just been updated with the today's data.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Not seen it reported elsewhere, but Heysham Port seems to have gained a Sunday service connecting with the Isle of Man sailing.

 

[splashoutradio]

Not seen it reported elsewhere, but Heysham Port seems to have gained a Sunday service connecting with the Isle of Man sailing.

I may be wrong here, but seem to recall the Sunday service being yearly occurrence in the summer months.

 

[berneyarms]

The new timetable pdfs are now online.

 

[LowLevel]

If there is that level of demand, then (IMO) there should be that level of supply. Presumably, every one of these is accompanied by a fare paying passenger. Presumably a proportion of these, were they unable to bring their bike, would travel by other means (car, most likely). Presumably that would represent a loss of fare revenue.

A lot of years ago, I lived 1.5 miles from a station, and I worked 1.5 miles from another station. I took my bike on the train for the commute. There was never any risk of not getting on; there was room aplenty. And there would typically be maybe 15 of us doing similar trips.

If I were to need to do the same journey today, I'd probably drive. It would take too long to walk it all, and there would (presumably) be the risk I'd not get on the train with my bike.

No benefit to anyone, really.

Not in the slightest. It is in fact the opposite. As long as the bike is being carried for free, and the train is full, each additional bike is taking up space that can be used for fare paying humans.

Consequently the additional business (which proportionally is tiny) is not attractive to the TOC to chase.

To put it another way. I work a lot of trains that are very full, both of passengers and luggage, to the point that additional custom is actively discouraged by seasonally restricting cheaper fares and standby buses have to be made available. If 2 people turn up with bikes those 2 bikes occupy 5-10 people's worth of stacked suitcases.

What the TOCs want is for you to have 2 cheap bikes and leave them at the station either end hence the investment in things like cycle hubs of late. Not one expensive bike that clutters up the train.

For most TOCs on board cyclists represent a tiny proportion of additional business that it is not worth the additional space or expense to carry and thus it doesn't really matter if they take their business elsewhere.

If I have a train with 300 passengers on it travelling as a random example from London St Pancras to Nottingham at peak time and 4 cyclists are refused making the 10 minute journey from Leicester to Loughborough that's a negligible percentage of the train's revenue lost if they cease to bother in future.

If you charged a sum for carrying a bike then that would be a different story providing the sum charged is as much as a normal ticket.

 

[pemma]

What the TOCs want is for you to have 2 cheap bikes and leave them at the station either end hence the investment in things like cycle hubs of late. Not one expensive bike that clutters up the train.

What Abellio want is for you to leave your bike at home or at your home station and to hire one of the red bikes to get from your destination station to where ever you are going. Not that many passengers do that!

 

[LowLevel]

What Abellio want is for you to leave your bike at home or at your home station and to hire one of the red bikes to get from your destination station to where ever you are going. Not that many passengers do that!

If they were to guarantee a certain level of availability and do something innovative like make the bike hire free with tickets of certain value/season tickets they might get somewhere. Otherwise it seems somewhat unlikely to work out.

 

[pemma]

If they were to guarantee a certain level of availability and do something innovative like make the bike hire free with tickets of certain value/season tickets they might get somewhere. Otherwise it seems somewhat unlikely to work out.

I think the biggest problem with the scheme is you can only use it if you have a subscription to the scheme, that effectively makes it useless for someone who normally travels by car but might use train+bike if their car is in for servicing or for a tourist who might only be in the country for a few days.

 

[Smidster]

I think the biggest problem with the scheme is you can only use it if you have a subscription to the scheme, that effectively makes it useless for someone who normally travels by car but might use train+bike if their car is in for servicing or for a tourist who might only be in the country for a few days.

The main problem for me with that sort of scheme is that the bikes are awful - having a "Boris Bike" style thing is OK once in a while if you are away from home but by and large the people who carry bikes on trains are likely to be more serious cyclists who at least want a bike with gears. Then there is the extra cost of paying a not insignificant amount for the privilege of riding a substandard bike.

 

[Bungle965]

I'm not sure I understand this. On a Sunday there is an additional 23:35 Todmorden to Manchester Victoria, this calls at all stops apart from Walsden. I don't understand the reasoning for missing out Walsden but then proceeding to call at all other stops to Manchester, including Moston which has significantly less passengers.
Sam

 

[notlob.divad]

The main problem for me with that sort of scheme is that the bikes are awful - having a "Boris Bike" style thing is OK once in a while if you are away from home but by and large the people who carry bikes on trains are likely to be more serious cyclists who at least want a bike with gears. Then there is the extra cost of paying a not insignificant amount for the privilege of riding a substandard bike.

Additionally you may well get people who want to go one way by train and cycle back. Going into work on the train with your bike then spending the evening pedalling through the country lanes.

 

[pemma]

I'm not sure I understand this. On a Sunday there is an additional 23:35 Todmorden to Manchester Victoria, this calls at all stops apart from Walsden. I don't understand the reasoning for missing out Walsden but then proceeding to call at all other stops to Manchester, including Moston which has significantly less passengers.
Sam

And there's also a Manchester to Chester Mon-Fri skipping out Navigation Road but none of the other stations, despite no conflict on the single track section. Plus a Sat Stoke-Piccadilly service that skips Stockport but has time to call at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The new timetable pdfs are now online.

The ones for Liverpool don't include the long Lime St blockade (June 2-July 29).
Not even mentioned.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Not in the slightest. It is in fact the opposite. As long as the bike is being carried for free, and the train is full, each additional bike is taking up space that can be used for fare paying humans.

Consequently the additional business (which proportionally is tiny) is not attractive to the TOC to chase.

To put it another way. I work a lot of trains that are very full, both of passengers and luggage, to the point that additional custom is actively discouraged by seasonally restricting cheaper fares and standby buses have to be made available. If 2 people turn up with bikes those 2 bikes occupy 5-10 people's worth of stacked suitcases.

What the TOCs want is for you to have 2 cheap bikes and leave them at the station either end hence the investment in things like cycle hubs of late. Not one expensive bike that clutters up the train.

For most TOCs on board cyclists represent a tiny proportion of additional business that it is not worth the additional space or expense to carry and thus it doesn't really matter if they take their business elsewhere.

If I have a train with 300 passengers on it travelling as a random example from London St Pancras to Nottingham at peak time and 4 cyclists are refused making the 10 minute journey from Leicester to Loughborough that's a negligible percentage of the train's revenue lost if they cease to bother in future.

If you charged a sum for carrying a bike then that would be a different story providing the sum charged is as much as a normal ticket.

I think we need to differentiate between commuting cyclists and leisure cyclists as they're completely different markets.

In the case of commuting cyclists it does make sense for them to cycle to their local station, lock their bike up at the "cycle hub" then get the train into work rather than taking their bike on the train. Although I'm a keen cyclist myself, it does annoy me to see arrogant cyclists trying to force their bikes onto a packed commuter train when there simple isn't room for them. Cyclists like that give us all a bad name!

But the leisure market is totally different. Certainly in the scenic parts of Northern England, the present system of just turning up and putting your bike on the train if there's room works perfectly well 99% of the time. Making reservations compulsory adds an extra layer of unnecessary bureaucracy which will put many leisure cyclists off and be a gift to some of the more jobsworth conductors on the network.

One further point - in many cases (such as the St Pancras to Nottingham trains you allude to) the cycle spaces are in the front or rear cab where passengers wouldn't be allowed anyway so cyclists wouldn't be denying other passengers a place on the train.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm not sure I understand this. On a Sunday there is an additional 23:35 Todmorden to Manchester Victoria, this calls at all stops apart from Walsden. I don't understand the reasoning for missing out Walsden but then proceeding to call at all other stops to Manchester, including Moston which has significantly less passengers.
Sam

Possibly lack of West Yorkshire PTE funding for the stop (which I presume would be in excess of the service requirement)?

 

[Bantamzen]

I think we need to differentiate between commuting cyclists and leisure cyclists as they're completely different markets.

In the case of commuting cyclists it does make sense for them to cycle to their local station, lock their bike up at the "cycle hub" then get the train into work rather than taking their bike on the train. Although I'm a keen cyclist myself, it does annoy me to see arrogant cyclists trying to force their bikes onto a packed commuter train when there simple isn't room for them. Cyclists like that give us all a bad name!

But the leisure market is totally different. Certainly in the scenic parts of Northern England, the present system of just turning up and putting your bike on the train if there's room works perfectly well 99% of the time. Making reservations compulsory adds an extra layer of unnecessary bureaucracy which will put many leisure cyclists off and be a gift to some of the more jobsworth conductors on the network.

One further point - in many cases (such as the St Pancras to Nottingham trains you allude to) the cycle spaces are in the front or rear cab where passengers wouldn't be allowed anyway so cyclists wouldn't be denying other passengers a place on the train.

Its a good point about the different markets, commuting cycles could easily work with a cycle hub at their starting station and even a "Boris-bike" scheme if applicable at the destination end. As for recreational cyclists (and I used to be one myself although I had never used the trains to carry my bike anywhere), even though it might be a bit of an inconvenience would it really be that off-putting to have to log on to a TOC reservation system via a mobile or PC if done from home just to confirm that a TOC could accommodate the bike(s)? Most cyclists heading into the Dales these days seem to be pretty well geared, with GoPros, mobiles & even dedicated GPS devices so I don't imagine it would be a massive upheaval to plan to reserve when planning the day's cycle?

Unfortunately with the ever growing popularity of cycling, and cycling events like this weekend's Tour de Yorkshire, more & more cyclists are turning up for services that might already be busy to full, and so TOCs, or more specifically their crews are finding themselves having to intervene when non-cyclists & cyclists trip over each other. An extreme example was when the Tour de France started in Yorkshire. Knowing full well that the trains would be rammed to sardine tin standards, Northern publicised in advance that bikes (and indeed prams) would not be carried on any service affected by flows of people heading to watch the race. Even on the day there were regular announcements about the same where made yet lo and behold lots of cyclists (and prams) showed up a each station, with the resulting arguments about space on the trains (these were the Ilkley services that I travelled on) resulting in trains being severely delayed. At my local station I counted at least a dozen bikes & maybe twice as many prams for the service I was aiming for (and this was a relatively early one) along with the several hundred passengers. It took over 15 minutes to sort out the resulting chaos with some pram and cycle owners flat refusing to disembark despite numerous polite requests from the guard & driver (who eventually had to tell people that if they didn't get out of the way of the doors he'd have no choice but to stand the service down and seek advice from his control). So quite a few people who would otherwise have been able to board were left behind & hoping they could ram onto the next one half an hour later.

As I say this was an extreme example and one not likely to be repeated too often although the Tour de Yorkshire does still attract a lot of people to travel by train, as getting to places like Ilkley & Otley is difficult by road. But nonetheless it demonstrates that there is only ever a finite capacity for cycles on trains, and where that capacity clashes with growing numbers of passengers TOCs need to explore measures to prevent issues such as were seen that sunny morning in Baildon (and other stops).

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

As mentioned earlier, the May timetable PDFs are now live on the Northern website: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/timetables

(apologies, I missed the earlier post)