Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[185]

I do wonder, now they've just announced they are scrapping FTP £80s - the new Penalty Fare £20 scheme will be similarly misused.

YEP Article, Penalty fares 02 Nov 17 http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....-hated-tickets-policy-with-20-fines-1-8837967

But the operator, which was accused of “bullying” vulnerable passengers after a girl of 16 was pulled out of a queue by ticket inspectors, has said it will instead impose “penalty fares” of at least £20 on travellers who do not buy their tickets in advance.

Its change of direction followed a barrage of criticism and a “heated” meeting at Westminster.

But an MP warned tonight that its new policy could be a move “from frying pan to fire”.

The company’s “stakeholder manager”, Pete Myers, confirmed in a letter to Conservative MP Philip Davies, seen by The Yorkshire Post, that would end its “failure to purchase” scheme before Christmas. The policy saw passengers who were unable to buy a ticket before they boarded denied one at their destination and instead handed a notice demanding payment within 21 days.

Mr Myers, who acknowledged that Northern’s policy had involved “pulling customers from the queue at Leeds Station”, told Mr Davies: “I would not be telling the truth if I said that we hadn’t had complaints.”

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder, now they've just announced they are scrapping FTP £80s - the new Penalty Fare £20 scheme will be similarly misused.

YEP Article, Penalty fares 02 Nov 17 http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....-hated-tickets-policy-with-20-fines-1-8837967

About time too. At least the statutory PF is better regulated.

An interesting question is as to whether they will still offer the £80 "specials" to first-time cases of actual evasion, or if it will be more like some other TOCs (like GTR) where it'll be a PF if it's a mistake or prosecution/a higher individual settlement if it's evasion, or if it'll go the way of LM of basically using PFs for everything whether it's evasion or a mistake, or just selling a ticket or being sent back to your ticketed destination depending on who you happen to meet.

I've certainly heard a few times on LM at barriers (when they bother to man them) "You can go back to X if you want, but if I let you out here I will have to give you a Penalty Fare first". The option of going back I think was generally taken.

 

[yorkie]

Does the company have the competence to learn from previous mistakes, I wonder?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northerns-approach-to-ticketless-travel.108282/#post-1972592

There was a Penalty Fares scheme on the Skipton and Ilkley lines with Arriva Trains Northern. It didn't last very long as a) they never bothered to employ enough Revenue staff who could actually charge the penalty fare; b) most stations were unstaffed as some of the newer ticket offices hadn't opened; c) the pemit to travel machines never worked as they kept getting vandalised or being stolen.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/yorkshire-tickets.35910/#post-485090

It was under Arriva Trains Northern. It was a shambles. Of the 16 stations on the "triangle", at the time only 4 had all day open full time ticket offices, and 1 had a morning peak hours only one. This meant the scheme relied a lot on the Permit to Travel machines. The problem was, they never worked as the kept being vandalised, stolen or simply knackered. When they did work everyone just put in 5p or suchlike, thus causing great inconvenience to the Guards on trains who had to process all these vouchers from all the unstaffed stations. Combine this with the fact that no one seemed to ever see a proper Inspector it can only be assumed that no one ever got a Penalty Fare. I do know that revenue actually dropped as the Guards were taking longer to issue tickets and therefore not doing so many, and lots weren't bothering anyway due to the increased hassle. So it got scrapped after not too long.

In recent years Northern has made further attempts to try and collect some of the huge amounts of lost revenue on the triangle by using Assistant Fare Collectors on trains. This didn't last long either as at peak times the trains were too full for them to move. So now at peak times you find they are stationed at key points like Keighley to check tickets as people join and leave trains. You still see them on trains at off peak times however, with them proving a valuable assistant to the Guard who doesn't have a cat in hells chance of collecting all the fares on offer.

About time too. At least the statutory PF is better regulated.

An interesting question is as to whether they will still offer the £80 "specials" ....

Unless a senior person from Northern has guaranteed they won't do this, I wouldn't trust them not to issue some people with the £80 notices. Effectively they are an invitation to an out of court settlement, though the terminology used by Northern misleads people into thinking they are a "fine".

 

[pemma]

I would hope they install multiple TVMs at any stations included within the penalty fare zone, unless they have a staffed ticket office from first to last train.

 

[yorkie]

I suspect they will not do this; they will expect passengers to arrive earlier for trains (but probably won't specify how early you should arrive) and if there is a queue they will probably say it's tough.

I'd love someone to prove me wrong, but that is my fear.

 

[pemma]

I suspect they will not do this; they will expect passengers to arrive earlier for trains (but probably won't specify how early you should arrive) and if there is a queue they will probably say it's tough.

It's not just queuing I'm thinking about. If there's just one TVM there's less chance of there being a fully functional TVM at all times and while it's rare sometimes ticket offices with a single ticket machine are unable to sell tickets. Obviously in the case of the latter the ticket office clerk can confirm that was the case, while a faulty TVM might fix itself between someone trying to use it and that person being stopped by a RPI.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They need, for urban stations, to apply the same principle as Metrolink - i.e. a minimum of one cash and card TVM per platform.

There is no reason they should be different just because one is electric, DOO and more frequent and the other diesel, guarded and less frequent. They both shift comparatively large numbers of passengers.

 

[ainsworth74]

They need, for urban stations, to apply the same principle as Metrolink - i.e. a minimum of one cash and card TVM per platform.

I would tend to agree. My concern with a lot of what Northern are doing when it comes to rolling out TVMs (undoubtedly a good thing it must be said!) is that they aren't deploying enough of them. It almost seems like it's a pure checkbox exercise i.e. 'Does station X have ticket issuing facilities? Yes.' Rather than a thinking about actually protecting and collecting revenue. Thinking of my local line of stations which don't have ticket offices (which is most of them) the ones that have been given a TVM only have one and it's only on one platform (even Middlesbrough has a solitary TVM tucked away in the ticket office and you wouldn't know its there if you weren't paying attention to be quite honest!). Which is wholly inadequate to deal with a) the number of people travelling and b) people not travelling from the TVM equipped platform (it can be a very long walk from the TVM to your actual platform).

If any such scheme is to succeed anywhere on Northern then it will require them to invest in far more TVMs than they or their predecessor ever showed an inclination to do.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm all for Penalty Fare areas if Ticketing Buying Facilities are adequate everyone knows where they stand (or should!) there's really no excuse for services around our major cities not to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If any such scheme is to succeed anywhere on Northern then it will require them to invest in far more TVMs than they or their predecessor ever showed an inclination to do.

And to maintain them properly. Bletchley has only one, but very rarely is it out of use (and if it is in the morning peak they tend to ensure the second ticket office window is open).

 

[Hadders]

On the face of it this is good news but only if it is implemented properly.

There needs to be proper ticket buying facilities available at all stations. I agree that this should be a TVM on every platform.
There should be consistency about the circumstances where tickets can be purchased on board.

I spent some time in South Wales this week travelling the Valley Lines, where fare evasion is apparently rife. Despite TVMs being in place at practically all the Valley Line stations (from what I could see) and announcements and posters at every station saying that passengers must buy before boarding no-one did. The guards simply sold tickets to everyone on board, including railcard discounts. This means passengers who get pulled up can simply say 'but I'm always allowed to buy on board' and the problem continues...

 

[thejuggler]

I used the single new large screen Northern TVM today at Apperley Bridge. My transaction worked then it immediately went out of service. It was still out of service 10 minutes later when I went for the train and this was at a busy time - no doubt lots of potential for headaches for anyone going into Leeds or Bradford.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Despite TVMs being in place at practically all the Valley Line stations

Most definitely not the case at all. Although I will agree there is an issue with people ignoring facilities where they do exist.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This means passengers who get pulled up can simply say 'but I'm always allowed to buy on board' and the problem continues...

Quite.

There needs to be an absolute stop to on-board regular fare (even Anytime-only no Railcards) ticket sales in PF areas unless the TVM is out of order. It causes more problems than it solves.

If we can't kill it off, perhaps adopting a system like that previously used in Switzerland would work - a flat £5 supplement for on-board sales again unless the TVM was out of order.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Quite.

There needs to be an absolute stop to on-board regular fare (even Anytime-only no Railcards) ticket sales in PF areas unless the TVM is out of order. It causes more problems than it solves.

If we can't kill it off, perhaps adopting a system like that previously used in Switzerland would work - a flat £5 supplement for on-board sales again unless the TVM was out of order.

But to be able to be take that stance, you need adequate ticketing facilities. Something that many of these places lack. Many of these stations have just one TVM, others have no ticketing facilities at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But to be able to be take that stance, you need adequate ticketing facilities. Something that many of these places lack.

Indeed you do. The South East TOCs seem to manage it[1], including in some less salubrious places. Why do Northern seem to find it so difficult?

[1] Sort of - LM has no cash accepting TVMs, but it also doesn't treat you like a criminal if you approach a barrier proffering cash or a RTV having come from an unstaffed station.

 

[gray1404]

I see there is no mention whatsoever in the article or by the Northern spokesperson that passengers boarding at stations without ticket selling facilities (or TVMs that accept the passengers chosen payment method) will be able to buy on board or at their destination without being charged a PF.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW I suspect a significant part of the issue with Northern vs. LM is that LM's RPI teams are properly trained professional railway staff. They also have security guards about, but those do not, so far as I can see, deal with ticketing matters, they are just backup in case a passenger gets violent. And when they are there alone, such as MKC at night, the barriers are left open.

 

[swt_passenger]

I see there is no mention whatsoever in the article or by the Northern spokesperson that passengers boarding at stations without ticket selling facilities (or TVMs that accept the passengers chosen payment method) will be able to buy on board or at their destination without being charged a PF.

That is a standard feature of a proper DfT approved PF scheme, so should happen by default.

 

[gray1404]

I find the approach taken by LM much better. It certainly costs the company must less to administer. At the end of the day charging a PF is a cheaper way of disposing of a matter and they can indeed get expensive e.g. if I travel from Liverpool to Euston on LM or Liverpool to Birmingham and have to pay twice the Anytime Single fare. LM are administering a scheme that is regulated and I bet there is a lot less conflict between their staff and passengers (and thus less complaints) then what Northern receive. I do not think it would be fair to say that their staff are badly trained. I know there is an issue on many TOCs (including LM and Northern) that the guards still continue to sell on board in a PF area. However, at least that way the company is still getting the revenue from a ticket sale when they come into contact with a ticket check - otherwise the passenger could just get off the train and walk off.

 

[gray1404]

Northern operate a lot more unmanned stations then many other TOCs with a PF scheme so I feel that they should be very clear on this point.

 

[swt_passenger]

Northern operate a lot more unmanned stations then many other TOCs with a PF scheme so I feel that they should be very clear on this point.

They aren't publishing the actual T&C today though, are they?

 

[gray1404]

The article could be read by some who are not in the know that once this scheme comes in all passengers on Northern must have a ticket before boarding. I feel their spokesperson should have been more clear.

 

[Llanigraham]

Quite.

There needs to be an absolute stop to on-board regular fare (even Anytime-only no Railcards) ticket sales in PF areas unless the TVM is out of order. It causes more problems than it solves.

If we can't kill it off, perhaps adopting a system like that previously used in Switzerland would work - a flat £5 supplement for on-board sales again unless the TVM was out of order.

1/ What happens if the person wants to pay in cash where there is only a card ticket machine?
2/ Disabled Card users who cannot use machines are allowed to buy on board.

 

[cactustwirly]

What happens if I want to buy a WY Day ranger, for example, and I start from an unstaffed station with only TVMs (which don't sell it)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What happens if I want to buy a WY Day ranger, for example, and I start from an unstaffed station with only TVMs (which don't sell it)?

SBB's ticket machines sell their entire offering. That would not be at all hard to fix.

 

[gray1404]

Northern have just tweeted me to say they are installing TVMs at all of their stations and asked what payment method I am looking to use. I responded to say that use both cash and card depending so they should ensure their TVMs accept both. I find it hard to believe Northern would install TVMs at all their locations.

They also said about their app. I made it clear in my reply that use of an app is purely optional.

 

[ainsworth74]

1/ What happens if the person wants to pay in cash where there is only a card ticket machine?
2/ Disabled Card users who cannot use machines are allowed to buy on board.

1) Then they proffer cash at their destination or their grip and buy a ticket then.

2) I don't see why people holding a DSB wouldn't still be entitled to the full range without prejudice on board upon presentation of their Railcard. Seems a simple exception to make and administer!

 

[WelshBluebird]

I find it hard to believe Northern would install TVMs at all their locations.

You aren't the only one!

 

[Starmill]

I'm only aware of one ammendment to booking office opening hours since the franchise start, which is that Guide Bridge now opens on Sundays. Anyone know of any others?

As I understand it, with the exception of major stations (including Leeds, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Lime Street etc), Northern don't have any machines that accept cash. Some stations such as Warrington Central, Rochdale and Saltaire have had their machines which accepted cash replaced by machines that do not. Others nominally accept cash (such as Garforth, Wilmslow and Littleborough) but seem to have the machine set to card only almost all the time.