Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Clip]

It's interesting but having just scanned through the SRA Penalty Fare Rules 2002 (assuming those are still valid?!?) and the Railway (Penalty Fare) Regulations 1994 (very soon to be superseded by the 2018 regs) they don't actually mention Permits to Travel that I could see.

Interesting. Though looking again at the coupon shown its a 'promise to pay permit' so its open to interpretation that it is a permit to travel though worded differently so does that make it different to the railways printing tickets or coupons?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my more sober state I notice a Promise To Pay doesn’t even state your destination, or ticket type...so what’s the point of going through selecting all that?!

Probably just so the local chavvery doesn't hold the button down and dump them all on the floor.

 

[philthetube]

If Northern were to describe them as free tickets, valid only until and opportunity to purchase arises, I suspect that they would then be able to say that all passengers, (subject to machines working), had had the opportunity to obtain a ticket.

 

[Bantamzen]

A "Promise to Pay" is just a thing Northern have decided to implement; there is no definition of it in the Penalty Fare legislation. Therefore, Northern can make their own rules up, and carry out poor practice such as making the machines to issue them locked away and inaccessible at times the ticket office is closed (such as at Keighley) while simultaneously making all sorts of threats to customers who were unable to obtain one.

There is some information on Northern's website, albeit not brilliantly worded about this:

If a passenger gets on a train without a ticket or Promise to Pay notice at a station where ticket buying facilities are available, they may be liable to pay a penalty fare.

You are responsible for ensuring that you purchase a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay notice that is valid for your entire journey before travelling, otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare.

Northern is responsible for ensuring that the facility to purchase a ticket or Promise to Pay notice is available.

Where the facility to do so has been provided, you must purchase a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay notice before you travel.

If you cannot produce a valid ticket or Promise to Pay notice when asked to do so you may be charged a Penalty Fare (minimum £20).

(My bold where applied)

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

So to me at least that says a little common sense will apply, and that FPs are not inevitable in the absence of a P2P but may be applied in certain circumstances. If a ticket machine is out of order, or locked away (has anyone asked about this BTW?) then the common sense approach for the passenger would be to ask the guard on inspection or where arrive at a barrier / inspection at the conclusion of their journey or leg thereof, to approach the staff and explain the situation. If for any reason some jobsworth RPO were not to apply common sense and simply charge for the required journey, then Northern by their own admission on the site above would not be in a position to pursue a passenger unless they had good reason to believe they were not in fact being totally honest.

And frankly as a daily user of services within this Northern Penalty Fare zone I see exactly this being applied by guards, with thus far no evidence of the roaming jobsworths hitting innocent passengers with fines or FPs (or carting them away for interrogation in Room 101) that seem to cause so much anxiety amongst some forum members. Most passengers seem to be able to either procure tickets beforehand, either as e/m tickets of TODs, obtain a valid ticket from a TVM or a P2P, and where a TVM has been offline (something that does seem to be an issue, and one that will be raised the next time our local group consults with Northern) guards are allowing cash and card payments for tickets.

As for the wider concerns about the wording of the scheme, and it's legality I'm pretty sure that Northern / Arriva will have consulted with DfT about it, and indeed the posters dotted around the network do seem to carry the DfT / National Rail logos suggesting that it has been approved and accredited by the same. Indeed the design of the yellow station posters and displays on TVMs seems to be almost identical to those used in other FP zones elsewhere, so I'm guess there is a good chance this is all above board.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There is some information on Northern's website, albeit not brilliantly worded about this:

(My bold where applied)

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

So to me at least that says a little common sense will apply, and that FPs are not inevitable in the absence of a P2P but may be applied in certain circumstances. If a ticket machine is out of order, or locked away (has anyone asked about this BTW?) then the common sense approach for the passenger would be to ask the guard on inspection or where arrive at a barrier / inspection at the conclusion of their journey or leg thereof, to approach the staff and explain the situation. If for any reason some jobsworth RPO were not to apply common sense and simply charge for the required journey, then Northern by their own admission on the site above would not be in a position to pursue a passenger unless they had good reason to believe they were not in fact being totally honest.

And frankly as a daily user of services within this Northern Penalty Fare zone I see exactly this being applied by guards, with thus far no evidence of the roaming jobsworths hitting innocent passengers with fines or FPs (or carting them away for interrogation in Room 101) that seem to cause so much anxiety amongst some forum members. Most passengers seem to be able to either procure tickets beforehand, either as e/m tickets of TODs, obtain a valid ticket from a TVM or a P2P, and where a TVM has been offline (something that does seem to be an issue, and one that will be raised the next time our local group consults with Northern) guards are allowing cash and card payments for tickets.

As for the wider concerns about the wording of the scheme, and it's legality I'm pretty sure that Northern / Arriva will have consulted with DfT about it, and indeed the posters dotted around the network do seem to carry the DfT / National Rail logos suggesting that it has been approved and accredited by the same. Indeed the design of the yellow station posters and displays on TVMs seems to be almost identical to those used in other FP zones elsewhere, so I'm guess there is a good chance this is all above board.

Generally agreed.

It is the roving (contracted) staff and their thuggish/bullying/threatening/unlawful/unknowledgeable* behaviour which is giving rise to much of the anxiety on this thread.

Were Northern, especially in their previous franchise, to have managed their contractors properly, and not to have introduced 'penalty fakes' like a car-clamping cowboy, then most of the anxiety would not exist.

The current Northern franchise has a steep hill to climb to convince people that they are a different beast. Continued use of the same contractor was not a good move in that regard. You get what you pay for - minimum wage staff on zero hours contract have a role. Revenue Protection under a Penalty Fares Scheme is not one of those roles.

Introduction of a properly approved Penalty Fares Scheme is a good move, but its implementation was poor. Minimal back up information; the pre-introduction posters as required, copies of leaflets easily available as required, map of route as required, list of stations as required, list of trains/services affected as required, website information sparse. Plus as an added bonus by an organisation with a poor reputation - the introduction of a poorly explained new concept - 'promise to pay' instead of the more widely understood 'permit to travel'.

*Delete to you personal experiences

 

[Bantamzen]

Generally agreed.

It is the roving (contracted) staff and their thuggish/bullying/threatening/unlawful/unknowledgeable* behaviour which is giving rise to much of the anxiety on this thread.

Were Northern, especially in their previous franchise, to have managed their contractors properly, and not to have introduced 'penalty fakes' like a car-clamping cowboy, then most of the anxiety would not exist.

The current Northern franchise has a steep hill to climb to convince people that they are a different beast. Continued use of the same contractor was not a good move in that regard. You get what you pay for - minimum wage staff on zero hours contract have a role. Revenue Protection under a Penalty Fares Scheme is not one of those roles.

Introduction of a properly approved Penalty Fares Scheme is a good move, but its implementation was poor. Minimal back up information; the pre-introduction posters as required, copies of leaflets easily available as required, map of route as required, list of stations as required, list of trains/services affected as required, website information sparse. Plus as an added bonus by an organisation with a poor reputation - the introduction of a poorly explained new concept - 'promise to pay' instead of the more widely understood 'permit to travel.

*Delete to you personal experiences

I don't disagree that some of the contracted out staff, and I emphasise some, have been some or all of the above. However, and please note this is purely anecdotal based on my experience, I haven't seen anything like as much of them as under the previous franchise. In fact frankly since the implementation I've barely seen them at all, especially at the ticket office at the end of platform 1 in Leeds where previously they had built up this reputation. Whether this is an indication that Arriva have learnt from this remains to be seen, but so far there are none of the kind of problems that some might have expected.

But I am going to make a vital point here, the FP scheme on the Aire & Wharfe lines is clearly a trial. Northern have been slowly adapting as they have gone along, things like better signage about the scheme including using the TVMs to display the details, adding signs on platforms indicating the location of the TVMs, adding additional ones at some locations, encouraging guards to remind passengers and so on. Anyone that has ever worked on a big new project will tell you the importance of trialling it, as well as taking feedback, and adjusting accordingly before finalising it & from what I can see this is what Northern are at least trying to do. If members of this board have concerns about facets of the trial, its implementation and publicity, then personally I would suggest raising them with Northern. I am part of a "Friends of" group for my local station that Northern have reached out to and taken feedback off since the franchise change. And more importantly they have acted on at least some points raised, which is why whenever I see negative responses I try to encourage people not just to post here but approach them about it. However when I have asked the question as to whether they have been approached about an issue, there's usually a grumpy silence. Things don't change by just posting up complaints on forums or social media, a little bit of civil engagement goes a long way.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I don't disagree that some of the contracted out staff, and I emphasise some, have been some or all of the above. However, and please note this is purely anecdotal based on my experience, I haven't seen anything like as much of them as under the previous franchise. In fact frankly since the implementation I've barely seen them at all, especially at the ticket office at the end of platform 1 in Leeds where previously they had built up this reputation. Whether this is an indication that Arriva have learnt from this remains to be seen, but so far there are none of the kind of problems that some might have expected.

But I am going to make a vital point here, the FP scheme on the Aire & Wharfe lines is clearly a trial. Northern have been slowly adapting as they have gone along, things like better signage about the scheme including using the TVMs to display the details, adding signs on platforms indicating the location of the TVMs, adding additional ones at some locations, encouraging guards to remind passengers and so on. Anyone that has ever worked on a big new project will tell you the importance of trialling it, as well as taking feedback, and adjusting accordingly before finalising it & from what I can see this is what Northern are at least trying to do. If members of this board have concerns about facets of the trial, its implementation and publicity, then personally I would suggest raising them with Northern. I am part of a "Friends of" group for my local station that Northern have reached out to and taken feedback off since the franchise change. And more importantly they have acted on at least some points raised, which is why whenever I see negative responses I try to encourage people not just to post here but approach them about it. However when I have asked the question as to whether they have been approached about an issue, there's usually a grumpy silence. Things don't change by just posting up complaints on forums or social media, a little bit of civil engagement goes a long way.

Indeed.

I hope the trial is successful, and is rolled out further. I wish Penalty Fares weren't necessary but we are where we are in terms of non compliance with 'buy before you board' abuse. Whether that is modern society (general disregard of rules) or the rail industry's fault (closure of ticket offices, lack of checks) is another discussion.

I don't like to see people getting a free ride. Especially when I get the feeling that they are a regular. On my very infrequent travels up the Aire Valley, fare evasion, or at least 'purchase on board and only when directly approached' was blatant and widespread, especially in, may I put it, the Damart area.

Equally it has to be implemented fairly - there will be cases where discretion is required, there will be cases where there is doubt whether the machines did go off-line for a short while but it cannot be proved one way or the other (especially there and then at the time of travel). Fairness of operation can only be seen/proved over time. As I am remote to the trial I have no direct experience but will be visiting the area and using the lines soon. However your experiences give me confidence. Perhaps the Leopard is making a determined effort to change its spots!

 

[Bantamzen]

Indeed.

I hope the trial is successful, and is rolled out further. I wish Penalty Fares weren't necessary but we are where we are in terms of non compliance with 'buy before you board' abuse. Whether that is modern society (general disregard of rules) or the rail industry's fault (closure of ticket offices, lack of checks) is another discussion.

I don't like to see people getting a free ride. Especially when I get the feeling that they are a regular. On my very infrequent travels up the Aire Valley, fare evasion, or at least 'purchase on board and only when directly approached' was blatant and widespread, especially in, may I put it, the Damart area.

Equally it has to be implemented fairly - there will be cases where discretion is required, there will be cases where there is doubt whether the machines did go off-line for a short while but it cannot be proved one way or the other (especially there and then at the time of travel). Fairness of operation can only be seen/proved over time. As I am remote to the trial I have no direct experience but will be visiting the area and using the lines soon. However your experiences give me confidence. Perhaps the Leopard is making a determined effort to change its spots!

It will remain to be seen if the Northern charm offensive continues, I hope so because they are slowly improving things from a purely passenger perspective, although the collapse of Carillion and their sub-contracted parts of Northern's customer service won't have helped much. Perhaps in the long run it might persuade them to take functions like complaints & refunds / delay-repay back in-house.

But you are right, something was needed as fare evasion was so obviously and blatantly rife. Prior to barriers going in a major stations you could guarantee a regular rush of passengers to the front of trains starting out at places like Bradford FS as the guard would rarely make it down a 333 and many were only travelling a couple of stops so would be off before they could be reached. Goodness knows how much the franchise lost over the years, it would certainly have made a dent in the subsidy requirements.

 

[v199629]

As far as I am aware, there are only around 8-10 people who can actually give out penalty fares.

 

[marcouk2]

Report in the Star

Sheffield passengers travelling to Leeds have been warned over Northern Rail's new tactic to stop train dodgers.

Northern Rail have introduced penalty fares to help encourage all customers buy their travel before they board the train.

By the end of May, Sheffield customers travelling on a Northern train on three routes could face a fine of £20.

Says to be introduced on Leeds - Sheffield via Moorthorpe, Leeds - York via Harrogate and Leeds to Man Vic via Hebden Bridge from the end of May.

 

[ainsworth74]

aul[sic] Barnfield, Regional Director for Northern, said: “The Penalty Fares are a natural extension of the Buy Before You Board Campaign we launched in 2016 and follow a successful trial on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines earlier this year.

Have they even issued a single penalty fare yet in this "successful trial"?!

 

[marcouk2]

Maybe they're spinning it as so successful that no one has ever needed to be issued a penalty fare , because of course everyone who wants to pay by cash is able to get a promise to pay ticket, the TVMs work 100% of the time and no one would ever try to avoid paying!

 

[theblackwatch]

Report in the Star

Says to be introduced on Leeds - Sheffield via Moorthorpe, Leeds - York via Harrogate and Leeds to Man Vic via Hebden Bridge from the end of May.

I would hope that, if such a scheme is introduced on the Harrogate line, they actually provide more than a single ticket machine at Starbeck (on one side only). The trains tend to cross there, meaning that there can be around 15-20 people waiting to board the train in each direction at a given time. Even working on the assumption that 50% of those already have a ticket (eg advance/season), that's a lot of people needing to use a single machine.

 

[Starmill]

I would hope that, if such a scheme is introduced on the Harrogate line, they actually provide more than a single ticket machine at Starbeck (on one side only).

Have they provided a second machine at Steeton & Silsden?

 

[Bantamzen]

Maybe they're spinning it as so successful that no one has ever needed to be issued a penalty fare , because of course everyone who wants to pay by cash is able to get a promise to pay ticket, the TVMs work 100% of the time and no one would ever try to avoid paying!

Or maybe the hoards of angry customers bearing pitchforks and torches, storming Northern HQ Towers after being bullied by jack-booted contracted-out staff simply as predicted* by some simply haven't emerged, because by and large the trial on the Aire & Wharfe lines has passed without much of a to-do?

Seriously though, in the months that have passed I have seen no evidence of anything like major problems under the scheme. All stations have had at least one TVM installed, some are having / have had additional ones installed after the go-live, where TVMs have been down guards have sold tickets to people with cash and cards as needed, and where additional RP checks have been in place (and there really haven't been that many in truth) there has generally seen to be little or no issues beyond anything you might encounter anywhere else on the network. In fact the most in the way of issues that I have seen has been confined to this thread, with debate about the positioning & size of notices, and / or TVMs, & the wording of said posters and details on the Northern website including the reasons why they haven't produced a 50 page guide on how to navigate around a station and use a TVM**. Most punters seem to just be getting on with it. Even the gob on a stick of an MP Philip Davies has gone quiet on the subject having previously threatened to strip Arriva of the franchise should one of my fellow constituents be in the slightest way inconvenienced by the scheme.

For those concerned passengers on the routes highlighted for the second phase I have this simple advice, if you can buy a ticket before boarding do so, & if not ask the guard onboard, explaining human to human the reasons why. I am led to believe most are actually very nice, normal people who won't call in the Northern mafia to drag you kicking and screaming off the train and into Room 101 for interrogation before incarceration. And if you arrive at your destination without being able to buy a ticket, obtain a P2P or permission from the Queen & PM, again explain why and you should have no problems as there will likely be someone there able to print that magic bit of paper in exchange for currency. **

(* This may be a slight exaggeration for comedic value)
(** These may also be for comedic value, so no need to get upset and wound up about it).

 

[ainsworth74]

Seriously though, in the months that have passed I have seen no evidence of anything like major problems under the scheme.

Though how much of that is down to them a) not seemingly having issued any that anyone is aware of and b) only having 8 staff that can do it anyway...

 

[Bantamzen]

Though how much of that is down to them a) not seemingly having issued any that anyone is aware of and b) only having 8 staff that can do it anyway...

I have no idea, all I know from using 4 trains a day within the zone that some fears of some members that this scheme would be used to bully passengers hadn't come to pass yet. And neither has the fear that passengers would fall foul if a TVM was unavailable and they couldn't get a ticket or P2P from them. From my perspective, and I accept this is anecdotal, the scheme has passed without barely an eyebrow raised outside of these forums. Most passengers seem to understand that they need to get a ticket one way or another before boarding, but where things go wrong the crews and staff apply common sense.

 

[pemma]

Report in the Star

Says to be introduced on Leeds - Sheffield via Moorthorpe, Leeds - York via Harrogate and Leeds to Man Vic via Hebden Bridge from the end of May.

MEN says Wilmslow and the Airport spur plus Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington will become penalty fare routes: https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/northern-rail-passengers-who-try-14497302

 

[ainsworth74]

but where things go wrong the crews and staff apply common sense.

Of course they do, train crew's nearly always do and probably will nearly always continue to do so. They were never likely to be the problem. The problem will come when Northern actually start having RPIs carrying out revenue checks in substantial numbers. Particularly if their agency staff rather than employees of Northern itself.

It hasn't been "DOOOOOOOMMMMM" yet for passengers on the Yorkshire Triangle because, to be quite honest, they haven't really started enforcing the scheme as quickly as I suspect many thought they would. Once Northern are regularly deploying roving teams of RPIs and carrying out revenue blocks on PF stations/routes then we'll actually find out how the scheme will work.

 

[43094]

I'm led to believe that there have been a few PFs issued this far - but not very many.

As above, there aren't yet that many staff qualified to issue them - once there are more qualified, I would expect any inherent issues (if there are any) would start to come to light.

 

[Starmill]

A key problem is that some guards don't even realise that the scheme exists. I have seen them selling railcard discounted off peak tickets to people who boarded at Guiseley or Ilkley when the ticket offices were open. They don't warn people that it's not 'permitted'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A key problem is that some guards don't even realise that the scheme exists. I have seen them selling railcard discounted off peak tickets to people who boarded at Guiseley or Ilkley when the ticket offices were open. They don't warn people that it's not 'permitted'.

That problem again. Such a scheme only has credibility if on board sales (other than against a Permit to Travel or equivalent, or where there was no facility at the origin and no time at the interchange station without missing a connection) are stopped completely.

 

[Bantamzen]

Of course they do, train crew's nearly always do and probably will nearly always continue to do so. They were never likely to be the problem. The problem will come when Northern actually start having RPIs carrying out revenue checks in substantial numbers. Particularly if their agency staff rather than employees of Northern itself.

It hasn't been "DOOOOOOOMMMMM" yet for passengers on the Yorkshire Triangle because, to be quite honest, they haven't really started enforcing the scheme as quickly as I suspect many thought they would. Once Northern are regularly deploying roving teams of RPIs and carrying out revenue blocks on PF stations/routes then we'll actually find out how the scheme will work.

And this is the point nobody yet knows just how the scheme will be fully enforced, assumptions are being made partly on the basis of what has happened in the past and for the most part under a different franchise, and partly because of a negative view of operator. As a result some members seem to be going out of their way to find fault even where it doesn't yet exist.

Will the scheme work without a hitch, of course not, real life never goes that smoothly. Will Northern employ agency staff, who knows but I would hope if they did they would ensure that they had adequate training. Will there be some who get things wrong, probably because that is just the nature of some people regardless of what job they do. But most importantly will the scheme bring untold misery to thousands of Northern passengers, of course it won't.

In an ideal world none of this would be needed, but we don't live in an ideal world. Most of Northern's network of stations are unmanned, and as a result fare evasion has been rife. So as a fare paying commuter I welcome any attempt to try and reduce this. I did say long ago in this thread that this welcome was cautious and subject to how things would actually go. But so far I have seen nothing to suggest any real problems. Passengers have quickly adapted to using the new TVMs, those picking up TODs for the most part seem to be giving themselves a little more time at the stations, and staff & crews seem to be applying a sensible approach, including what revenue checks there have been so far. And so I see no reason for the angst that seems routinely to be generated on this thread. I'm not interested in how things may have been applied in the past, just how they are now.

That problem again. Such a scheme only has credibility if on board sales (other than against a Permit to Travel or equivalent, or where there was no facility at the origin and no time at the interchange station without missing a connection) are stopped completely.

Most guards on these lines do know about it, and remind passengers of it during their announcements. And now stickers about the scheme are being applied above the doors of the 333s.

As for onboard ticket sales from my perspective these seem to have reduced greatly, especially in the peaks where at one time it wasn't uncommon to see credit cards being handed to guards to pay for walk-on fares to London. Now within a few months the same is no longer true, most passengers now seem to board with av ticket and the guards undertaking checks seem to have less time spent selling tickets. Of course that is not to say that they don't, some people do board trains with no ticket or a P2P, but without knowing the reasons why or the conversation had between them and the guard it is impossible to make a judgement as to whether this constitutes a failure of the scheme, or just a member of crew reacting to an unexpected situation.

 

[Clip]

Though how much of that is down to them a) not seemingly having issued any that anyone is aware of and b) only having 8 staff that can do it anyway...

Is this confirmed they only have 8 staff that can issue PFs?

 

[moliones]

Where exactly are Northern planning to designate as Penalty Fare stations/routes?

This post has a newspaper article claiming some routes near Manchester/Liverpool will be,

MEN says Wilmslow and the Airport spur plus Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington will become penalty fare routes: https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/northern-rail-passengers-who-try-14497302

And the Hull Daily Mail (so, I don't really trust the information in it) suggests perhaps all Northern routes might be

Any passengers who travel with Northern Rail will soon be fined £20 or will have to pay double their fare if they wait to buy a ticket on the train.
[...]
The train operator, which runs a number of services from Hull, is bringing in the new charges for any passengers next month.
[...]
Fines will be issued by ‘collectors’ at stations along the routes affected.

Does that mean all routes? All routes from Hull? Some routes from Hull? One route from Hull? That the Hull Daily Mail have got themselves confused?

Also, judging from people's reactions (see eg https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...passengers-react-northerns-plans-fine-1427942), they (Northern/the media) don't seem to have done a good job explaining that it is already the case people are meant to purchase at the first opportunity, though the willingness of guards to sell onboard when leaving Hull (staffed + ticket machines) probably doesn't help.

 

[johntea]

There’s a sign up at Victoria stating it’s going to be a Penalty Fare station from 14 May, but no information other than that.

 

[Deerfold]

Report in the Star

Says to be introduced on Leeds - Sheffield via Moorthorpe, Leeds - York via Harrogate and Leeds to Man Vic via Hebden Bridge from the end of May.

I wonder if they'll follow the rules properly and put up signs announcing the introduction on these schemes and signs and leaflets with maps of the areas? I've still only seen these in the FOI request for the Airedale and Wharfedale area.

Have they provided a second machine at Steeton & Silsden?

They hadn't last week, though they've replaced the old one with one that displays what you're doing to anyone behind you in very large type.

 

[Bantamzen]

Where exactly are Northern planning to designate as Penalty Fare stations/routes?

This post has a newspaper article claiming some routes near Manchester/Liverpool will be,


And the Hull Daily Mail (so, I don't really trust the information in it) suggests perhaps all Northern routes might be


Does that mean all routes? All routes from Hull? Some routes from Hull? One route from Hull? That the Hull Daily Mail have got themselves confused?

Also, judging from people's reactions (see eg https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...passengers-react-northerns-plans-fine-1427942), they (Northern/the media) don't seem to have done a good job explaining that it is already the case people are meant to purchase at the first opportunity, though the willingness of guards to sell onboard when leaving Hull (staffed + ticket machines) probably doesn't help.

Or perhaps the newspaper hasn't done a very good of reporting the story, going for the rather dramatic angle instead of simply reporting the facts as the Manchester one did? The comment about it not encouraging people onto trains was particularly comical. Are Northern supposed to say its OK to jump on a train and try not to pay, which is exactly what this scheme is trying to discourage.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Aren't some stations on the Leeds-Harrogate-York line similar to Cononley on the Airedale line i.e. two platforms with no subway or bridge so passengers have to use the level crossing? Cattal and Hammerton spring to mind. Will Northern be installing a TVM on each platform there? If not then passengers who do the right thing and cross the line to buy a ticket may find that they can't get back to catch their train because the gates have been closed. Some may be tempted to misuse the crossing. At the moment the crossings on the Harrogate line are manned but I believe that the plan is to automate them.

I emailed Northern to ask how long I should allow at Cononley to cross the line twice by the crossing in order to buy a ticket to Skipton. The generic reply I got said that it was my responsibility to buy a ticket, that I could get a PF if I couldn't cross the line to buy one because the gates were shut, and that I should allow "adequate" time to use the TVM. They didn't say how long an adequate time is, so I've asked them again.

 

[Bantamzen]

Aren't some stations on the Leeds-Harrogate-York line similar to Cononley on the Airedale line i.e. two platforms with no subway or bridge so passengers have to use the level crossing? Cattal and Hammerton spring to mind. Will Northern be installing a TVM on each platform there? If not then passengers who do the right thing and cross the line to buy a ticket may find that they can't get back to catch their train because the gates have been closed. Some may be tempted to misuse the crossing. At the moment the crossings on the Harrogate line are manned but I believe that the plan is to automate them.

I emailed Northern to ask how long I should allow at Cononley to cross the line twice by the crossing in order to buy a ticket to Skipton. The generic reply I got said that it was my responsibility to buy a ticket, that I could get a PF if I couldn't cross the line to buy one because the gates were shut, and that I should allow "adequate" time to use the TVM. They didn't say how long an adequate time is, so I've asked them again.

I hope while you were at it you asked how long would be needed to arrive at somewhere like Leeds in the peak hours in order to buy a ticket for the 17:26?