Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Puffing Devil]

Can we assume this bit, where they suggest that passengers should use M-tickets if available if boarding from a station without any ticketing facilities, is simply not at all enforceable?

Yes..

 

[Starmill]

Can we assume this bit, where they suggest that passengers should use M-tickets if available if boarding from a station without any ticketing facilities, is simply not at all enforceable?

I would imagine so.

Isn't that (highlighted in bold above) the guarantee the RMT are looking for?

It's very bizarre that the Customer Experience Centre state so very clearly and unambiguously that the duty of the guard is solely to operate the doors. If that is not correct then...

 

[scrapy]

In my view the rules which applied previously were sound and deviation from them should not have been allowed by the DfT. It's just another way to rip people off:






Of course, there will be lots of people willing to defend changes made to allow operators to be less scrupulous with issuing Penalty Fares. The main objective here appears to be to allow as many Penalty Fares as possible to be issued, without giving the proper notice or following the rules on signage. Given that I know from experience that Northern have treated people who have done nothing wrong with contempt before, I see them adding large numbers of unstaffed stations and airports to a scheme as unacceptable.

My experience of Manchester Airport is that it is not foreign visitors who don't speak English who travel without valid tickets. The ticket barriers to the Metrolink platforms are rarely in use and quite a number of airport/airline staff seem to make a detour that way and then make their way to the front of a train. Of course they will pay on board but only of challenged before their stop. That's the kind of behaviour a penalty fares scheme is designed to deter.

As it stands Northern are able to get away with an unofficial penalty fares scheme and any regulation of this would be welcome.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Just had a look while passing through today, and sure enough here is the notice.
Sam

As per the Leeds example provided previously, the sign in incorrect. Not all services by all operators will be covered by the extension to the Penalty Fares Scheme. Rather a limited number of services by a single operator will be covered. They really should be more specific. From their point of view it may frighten some people not actually covered by the Penalty Fares Scheme into buying a ticket where they currently do not do so.

I cannot find anything on their website about the coverage of the current or proposed extension to the scheme. Again they should do so with a list of stations, list of services and a map.

Having made a couple of trips recently: Plenty of grippers hanging around inside the barriers at Bradford Forster Square (am peak), a number of grippers hanging around station entrances inbound towards Leeds/Bradford between Shipley and Keighley (am peak). In the return direction (evening peak) eight, yes eight, grippers at Frizinghall but only on the towards Bradford platform so far as I could see.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Aren’t signs at stations used by multiple operators such as Man Picc supposed to make it clear which TOCs are in or out of the scheme?

Why yes they are!

 

[Bantamzen]

Arriva invested in the STAR Mobile with receipt type tickets for all of their franchises (whether suitable or not) I don't believe they really had a choice to keep the Avantix's in service also I imagine the economies of sale involved would have lessened the impact of. Every single other TOC I am aware of has withdrawn it and either replaced it with STAR or Envoy.
Sam

In that case why did they not bring forward the FP scheme to negate the need for new ticket machines to replace Anvantix across the Northern franchise? Given the size of it there really doesn't seem to be any logic or economics that has a company investing so much in new tech that they quickly plan to ditch. And besides, how could they run a Promise To Pay scheme without onboard ticket sales?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What I mean is the papers got it from official statements from the company. It's just that there wasn't one big statement. The Northern network's so big, the way releases are sent out tends to be done regionally - i.e. they'll send a Manchester-specific statement to Manchester papers, a Merseyside-specific statement to Merseyside papers etc. They are only sent details relevant to their area, rather than the bigger picture for the whole of Northern

So we've confirmed all of the routes - just not together

But you would think that they would put copies of the press releases on their website.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I would imagine so.

It's very bizarre that the Customer Experience Centre state so very clearly and unambiguously that the duty of the guard is solely to operate the doors. If that is not correct then...

Your assumption seems to be that 'Customer Experience Centre' = providing a knowledgeable, researched and correct answer.

 

[IanXC]

As per the Leeds example provided previously, the sign in incorrect. Not all services by all operators will be covered by the extension to the Penalty Fares Scheme. Rather a limited number of services by a single operator will be covered. They really should be more specific. From their point of view it may frighten some people not actually covered by the Penalty Fares Scheme into buying a ticket where they currently do not do so.

I cannot find anything on their website about the coverage of the current or proposed extension to the scheme. Again they should do so with a list of stations, list of services and a map.

Having made a couple of trips recently: Plenty of grippers hanging around inside the barriers at Bradford Forster Square (am peak), a number of grippers hanging around station entrances inbound towards Leeds/Bradford between Shipley and Keighley (am peak). In the return direction (evening peak) eight, yes eight, grippers at Frizinghall but only on the towards Bradford platform so far as I could see.

Have you reconciled these thoughts with the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018? I've not studied them in detail but there doesn't appear to be any reference to routes and operators, purely to stations.

 

[Bantamzen]

Have you reconciled these thoughts with the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018? I've not studied them in detail but there doesn't appear to be any reference to routes and operators, purely to stations.

Indeed, the guidelines are available online (link to the National Rail page with the downloadable copy below) for anyone to read.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46592.aspx

In the case of notices where the FP scheme is only in partial operation, the guide states in Section 3:

When stations are served by multiple train companies, including those that do not charge Penalty Fares, there must be - as a minimum - one notice displayed in a place that it can be visible to a customer joining a connecting train without passing through a ticket barrier. For example, at the bottom of a footbridge connecting platforms or in a subway

So in the case at Leeds the notices are displayed on the pillars close to the barriers. And with regards to the required notice the guide (section 8) says the following:

If an Operator with a Penalty Fares scheme chooses to make any changes to that scheme, the Rail Delivery Group recommends they advertise planned changes at least 21 days before the proposed date of the change. These changes can be communicated via station posters and announcements, the scheme Operators own website and any other relevant communications channels.

So Northern in this instance have chosen the media as the initial communications channel, with doubtless station notices and signage, along with the digital display on TVMs to come sooner to the start (the latter being only appropriate once a station becomes covered by such the FP scheme).

Whether people think this is enough is subjective of course, but Northern have applied at least the minimum required when the Aire & Wharfe lines became FP active, and the same seems true with the next phase. But again, and I cannot emphasise this enough, as a daily commuter who uses an average of 4 services per day within the FP scheme so far rolled out, most passengers were seemingly aware of the need to buy a ticket or obtain a P2P either before or directly after it came online. The mass problems gleefully foretold of on this particular thread have not come to light after 4 months of operation, despite numerous attempts to regenerate the perceived issues and technicalities some members have. If this somehow changes in the future I will happily discuss anything that goes seriously wrong, but from this passenger's own perspective, its really not as bad as some would have it be, no matter how much they try to ignore the reality and invent new ways to make this scheme look unlawful or immoral.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Have you reconciled these thoughts with the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018? I've not studied them in detail but there doesn't appear to be any reference to routes and operators, purely to stations.

No, I wasn't aware of them! Spotted them this morning following their mention in Railway Gazette International.

I've had a quick skim but need to read properly. Some initial thoughts:

There is reference to passengers starting their journey outside the Penalty Fare / Compulsory Ticket Area not being PFable - that the rules apply to the ticket purchasing facilities available where the passenger boarded their first preceding train, and confirm that there is no need to miss a connection in order to buy a ticket at an interchange point - using that lovely word reasonable - reasonable to whom? But that you can be PFed if you passed up an opportunity such as a guard passing through the train.

Reference to and examples of signage for PF and CTA.

Reference to passengers should have sight of a sign at each entrance to a station and at interchanges where entering a PF / CTA eg at footbridges/subways.

In my Airedale travels last week, the guard was heard to comment to the grippers at Frizinghall that she had been through the train and that all passengers had said they had tickets. That'll catch out those trying to say she didn't come round. A positive confirmation that she has done so, so everyone has had the opportunity to pay.

 

[Clip]

The mass problems gleefully foretold of on this particular thread have not come to light after 4 months of operation, despite numerous attempts to regenerate the perceived issues and technicalities some members have. If this somehow changes in the future I will happily discuss anything that goes seriously wrong, but from this passenger's own perspective, its really not as bad as some would have it be, no matter how much they try to ignore the reality and invent new ways to make this scheme look unlawful or immoral.

Indeed, this is true. Going back to the first page makes interesting reading for sure!!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Whether people think this is enough is subjective of course, but Northern have applied at least the minimum required when the Aire & Wharfe lines became FP active, and the same seems true with the next phase. But again, and I cannot emphasise this enough, as a daily commuter who uses an average of 4 services per day within the FP scheme so far rolled out, most passengers were seemingly aware of the need to buy a ticket or obtain a P2P either before or directly after it came online. The mass problems gleefully foretold of on this particular thread have not come to light after 4 months of operation, despite numerous attempts to regenerate the perceived issues and technicalities some members have. If this somehow changes in the future I will happily discuss anything that goes seriously wrong, but from this passenger's own perspective, its really not as bad as some would have it be, no matter how much they try to ignore the reality and invent new ways to make this scheme look unlawful or immoral.

But, as has been pointed out already. How much effort have they put into issuing Penalty Fares? If they have simply carried on as before, selling on-board, then problems will not have arisen. Selling on-board should be the exception under a PF scheme - in Northern land that means cash-payers and the outliers such as Rail Travel Vouchers, disabled unable to use, machine failures etc.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Every single other TOC I am aware of has withdrawn it and either replaced it with STAR or Envoy.
Sam

Avantix had an out of service date of either 16 or 17 not all TOCs have gone Star or Envoy

 

[Bantamzen]

But, as has been pointed out already. How much effort have they put into issuing Penalty Fares? If they have simply carried on as before, selling on-board, then problems will not have arisen. Selling on-board should be the exception under a PF scheme - in Northern land that means cash-payers and the outliers such as Rail Travel Vouchers, disabled unable to use, machine failures etc.

You've noted above that Frizinghall had a number of RPOs, and for good reason. Before I moved offices to Leeds I was a daily commuter through Forster Square. And before RPOs / barriers were deployed Forster Square to Frizinghall, and from there towards Skipton & Ilkley at school chucking out times were a revenue black hole. I saw it daily, passengers heading to the front of the trains, or simply using weight of numbers to fare evade. I honestly dread to think how much the franchise lost in this small area alone over the years, but it will have been a lot. So simply installing TVMs and maintaining the status quo was simply not an option. The FP scheme is designed to apply that bit more pressure and risk to those actively seeking to evade whilst offering better opportunity to pay for those that don't through the TVMs.

You mention problems, but again I fail to see what these are on the lines concerned. Most passengers seem to have adjusted easily, the problems to me seem to be mainly confined to this thread.

 

[Deerfold]

So Northern in this instance have chosen the media as the initial communications channel, with doubtless station notices and signage, along with the digital display on TVMs to come sooner to the start (the latter being only appropriate once a station becomes covered by such the FP scheme).

Whether people think this is enough is subjective of course, but Northern have applied at least the minimum required when the Aire & Wharfe lines became FP active, and the same seems true with the next phase. But again, and I cannot emphasise this enough, as a daily commuter who uses an average of 4 services per day within the FP scheme so far rolled out, most passengers were seemingly aware of the need to buy a ticket or obtain a P2P either before or directly after it came online. The mass problems gleefully foretold of on this particular thread have not come to light after 4 months of operation, despite numerous attempts to regenerate the perceived issues and technicalities some members have. If this somehow changes in the future I will happily discuss anything that goes seriously wrong, but from this passenger's own perspective, its really not as bad as some would have it be, no matter how much they try to ignore the reality and invent new ways to make this scheme look unlawful or immoral.

It sounds like there's been improvements at peak times with people paying. I usually travel outside these times - when travelling from unbarriered stations towards Leeds, I don't think I've been on a train where the guard hasn't been selling people tickets (there do seem to be an increased number of trains with additional staff on, which helps) - I've not heard any mentioning the PF scheme. Coming from Leeds, the number of on-board ticket checks seems to have reduced noticeably.

 

[xotGD]

Tickets still being sold on Airedale services this very minute!

 

[Clip]

Tickets still being sold on Airedale services this very minute!

And the circumstances were?

 

[IanXC]

Indeed, the guidelines are available online (link to the National Rail page with the downloadable copy below) for anyone to read.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46592.aspx

Ah now that is interesting - the Statutory Instrument actually allows for:

4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.

(3) In paragraph (1) the reference to “an operator” is to the operator of—
(a) the train which the person in question is travelling by, present on or leaving;
(b) the station, where the person in question is present in or leaving a station, having left a train arriving at that station;

 

[Starmill]

Your assumption seems to be that 'Customer Experience Centre' = providing a knowledgeable, researched and correct answer.

As the only official form of contact available, I will assume that all information they've provided is accurate. Certainly more so than what the newspapers tell us. If it's not, then they're guilty of either malpractice or incompetence...

 

[Merseysider]

If it's not, then they're guilty of ... incompetence...

Who’d have thought?

From my own experience there’s not much need for Penalty Fares between Liverpool and Manchester - most people have a pass or ticket and most of the revenue is captured at the Liverpool / Warrington / Manchester barriers.

The suburban lines east and south of Manchester are in greater need of attention but ticketing facilities are lacking.

 

[Bantamzen]

It sounds like there's been improvements at peak times with people paying. I usually travel outside these times - when travelling from unbarriered stations towards Leeds, I don't think I've been on a train where the guard hasn't been selling people tickets (there do seem to be an increased number of trains with additional staff on, which helps) - I've not heard any mentioning the PF scheme. Coming from Leeds, the number of on-board ticket checks seems to have reduced noticeably.

It seems to be coming down, at the moment at least, to the individual guards as to what information they give to passengers on the FP scheme. I've been on some services where they include a comment about the line being a Penalty Fare route on departure, even from Leeds, whereas others do not mention it. That comes down to staff training, and of course willingness by crews to go with it. Given the current dispute between crews and Northern / DfT it is probably not a surprise that there will be some inconsistencies.

However all the stations I've passed through seem to clearly make it known that they are part of the FP Zone, and increasing numbers of the 333s at least are having stickers applied over doors (presumably for the benefit of both passengers & crew) reminding of the scheme, and all save Leeds have regular audio announcements about the FP scheme. In short it is now increasingly difficult to claim ignorance to it, and this is having an impact from what I can see. What is more noticeable on the Aire & Wharfe lines is that Northern have been tweaking how they approach it, increasing the number of posters, signs on stations & trains, adapting audio announcements & even now starting to increase the number of TVMs. For example Guiseley now has two, one at the entrance to the ticket office which is card only, and a second on P2 which accepts cash as well. Personally I see these ongoing changes as Northern learning from the early part of the trial, and improving how they deliver it, something that is common with any new project anywhere. I know that some expect new systems to be 100% bullet-proof from Day 1, but that simply isn't how the real world works unfortunately. So the fact that they are not belligerently sticking to a Day 1 model should offer at least some encouragement that the errors of previous revenue protection schemes are being learned, or at least remembered going forward.

As I say, if things start to go seriously wrong, I'll happily engage in more debate about it, but to be honest most of the concerns raised through this thread seem to be more pedantic and occasionally based on out of date regulation, rather than anything tangible.

Tickets still being sold on Airedale services this very minute!

And the circumstances were?

Herein lies the point, Northern guards are not now barred from selling tickets. I still see it, although not as much as say a year ago. But any number of circumstances might apply here, the passenger may have had a Promise To Pay that the member didn't observe, they may have reported a faulty TVM or card reader and so needed to buy onboard. And in the instance of at least one semi-regular passenger I see on the Wharfe, the guard may be using discretion in particular circumstances, in this case because the passenger suffers severe anxiety & this is know to the regular crews they allow them to but onboard to help with the passenger's condition.

It is worth pointing out to everyone commenting about onboard sales, everywhere in the FP regulations & notices the phrase "If a passenger gets on a train without a ticket or Promise to Pay notice at a station where ticket buying facilities are available, they may be liable to pay a penalty fare" (my emphasis) include that key word, "may" not "will" when referring to FPs. This allows for some level of discretion by both crews & authorised persons, something that must not be lost when debating this matter.

 

[ainsworth74]

This allows for some level of discretion by both crews & authorised persons, something that must not be lost when debating this matter.

It does but it must also not be lost that the reason that Northern train crew are still selling tickets rather than issuing Penalty Fares is that they're not authorised collectors so they cannot issue Penalty Fares. If an RPI/RPO comes across someone who could be liable for a Penalty Fare then ninety-nine times out of a hundred they're going to get a Penalty Fare.

 

[Bantamzen]

It does but it must also not be lost that the reason that Northern train crew are still selling tickets rather than issuing Penalty Fares is that they're not authorised collectors so they cannot issue Penalty Fares. If an RPI/RPO comes across someone who could be liable for a Penalty Fare then ninety-nine times out of a hundred they're going to get a Penalty Fare.

And it is on this basis that passengers are encouraged to buy before boarding or at least obtain a P2P, because that the risk exists that the first member of staff undertaking revenue duties they come across will be one of the authorised persons. It perhaps does send the wrong message if passengers still see onboard sales, although again we cannot assume that these sales are for reasons other than stated above, and we also cannot assume that this may just be as a result of a period of grace to allow passengers to adjust. All I can say is that I am seeing at least some affect from it, less people seem to be buying onboard at least in the peaks (these being potentially regular commuters), and there do seem to be more ticket checks especially coming out of Leeds on these lines where once they were less frequent.

 

[Starmill]

I don't understand why there's a discussion about this. If onboard ticket sales continue then this undermines the scheme regardless of the situation. If the person was unable to pay before boarding then something has gone wrong, undermining the point of the scheme, wasting time and money and contravening the core message of buy before you board. If someone didn't buy before boarding when they could have done, but isn't warned, then this implies that the person has done nothing wrong so they could justifiably do so again.

The regulations made clear that onboard ticket purchase should ideally never happen. If it does happen it should be an exceptional circumstance. If it's still common, regardless of why, then there's no point in having the penalty fares scheme, and it will not send out the message necessary if cultural change is required.

So many people just don't seem to understand what the point of a Penalty Fares scheme is. The whole point is that everyone is treated in the same way and has a consistent experience, and that discretion isn't necessary, because everyone knows what the rules are and follows them. Consider London Overground services. When are tickets sold onboard trains? That's right - almost never. Has anyone ever seen this with their eyes? Consider when there was no opportunity to pay the correct fare before boarding one of their trains? That's right, pretty much never. That's the point of Penalty Fares.

This is why it's so ridiculous that these areas have been used as a trial. Steeton & Silsden, a station with hundreds of thousands of annual users, should obviously have a ticket office staffed from 10 minutes prior to departure of the first service until the departure of the final service and open 7 days a week, in addition to at least one machine on each platform. Then it would be appropriate for this station to be in a Penalty Fares area. A single ticket machine is totally inadequate for hundreds of thousands of annual users who may need to use it. It's far far too likely that it will break, obviating the penalty fares scheme entirely. Southeastern were actually forced to suspend their scheme a few years ago because their equipment was too unreliable. You can repeat this for other very busy stations in the scheme. Of course the likes of tiny Styal and Hammerton are not the same and should simply remain pay onboard in all circumstances.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't understand why there's a discussion about this. If onboard ticket sales continue then this undermines the scheme regardless of the situation. If the person was unable to pay before boarding then something has gone wrong, undermining the point of the scheme, wasting time and money and contravening the core message of buy before you board. If someone didn't buy before boarding when they could have done, but isn't warned, then this implies that the person has done nothing wrong so they could justifiably do so again.

The regulations made clear that onboard ticket purchase should ideally never happen. If it does happen it should be an exceptional circumstance. If it's still common, regardless of why, then there's no point in having the penalty fares scheme, and it will not send out the message necessary if cultural change is required.

So many people just don't seem to understand what the point of a Penalty Fares scheme is. The whole point is that everyone is treated in the same way and has a consistent experience.

I don't necessarily disagree with most of this, in an ideal world nobody would need to buy onboard. But this isn't an ideal world. For a start, across the UK rail network including Northern's share of it there are stations that are quiet, isolated or in economically deprived areas. So for many stations having a cash accepting TVM isn't ideal, and risks regular thefts, so card only TVMs issuing P2Ps is the compromise. Ticket offices would of course be better, but these require staffing for anything up to 12-20 hours a day to cover all services, and for smaller stations it is not considered cost effective, especially in a privately operated environment. And of course like all technology, there are breakdowns, loss of network or even just unexpectedly high numbers of passengers at any given time that can contribute to down-time. So onboard sales will always be required to handle such and other circumstances, there's really no getting away from it. Its either that or let people continue to get away with fare evasion.

As for guards allowing sales where TVMs / ticket offices were available and the passenger had a valid method of payment for such, well as I say from what I have seen in four months or so there is something of a reduction in this. Other members have said they still see it regularly but without context its hard to determine if this is a failure to apply the letter of the FP scheme, or as a result of an loss of ticket buying facilities, and without other posters giving specifics, i.e. what was said between guard & passenger all that we can do is speculate. But as I see it Penalty Fare zones are primarily there as a deterrent for passengers who might try to evade, and a reminder to those who would not do it normally to ensure they remember to obtain a necessary ticket. Yes by and large most passengers should be treated the same, but there will always be exceptions to that, and so crews / RPOs etc will always need to exercise some level of discretion.

 

[ag51ruk]

Physical signs have appeared at the entrances to Manchester Piccadilly over the last couple of days, and they do say that Penalty Fares only apply to people travelling on Northern services

 

[Adlington]

Penalty Fares only apply to people travelling on Northern services

Every now and then I take a train from Piccadilly to Adlington (Cheshire). I have a free rail pass valid in Greater Manchester only (up to Bramhall on my route).

Normally I would let the conductor now that I was going to outside my free zone and needed a ticket from Bramhall to Adlington, and never had a problem with it (leaving aside the fact that most of the time nobody bothered to check the tickets...)

Does this Penalty Fares notice @ Piccadilly mean that I could be charged a penalty fare now? Getting off at Bramhall to buy a ticket is out of question, as trains run once per hour...

 

[Merseysider]

Apologies if this sounds blunt, but you should purchase that ticket before boarding at Piccadilly.

 

[Adlington]

TVMs anywhere do not sell tickets from "third-party" stations. If I'm to queue for the ticket at Piccadilly for 20-30 minutes behind folks who need 4-5 minutes each to decide whether to take the 16:00 or 16:20 train to London, I'll be very nice to the conductor if/when (s)he comes and pay my extra fare to him/her.