• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

Status
Not open for further replies.

Merseysider

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
22 Jan 2014
Messages
5,388
Location
Birmingham
Virgin’s machines at Piccadilly have done for nearly a year, but I agree that the queue at the ticket office is a right piss take at times :lol:
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,569
Location
Yorkshire
TVMs anywhere do not sell tickets from "third-party" stations. If I'm to queue for the ticket at Piccadilly for 20-30 minutes behind folks who need 4-5 minutes each to decide whether to take the 16:00 or 16:20 train to London, I'll be very nice to the conductor if/when (s)he comes and pay my extra fare to him/her.

And if it becomes a penalty fare route, hope you don't meet a PF collector first.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
If Adlington had permission from the guard to travel to Adlington with a ticket only valid as far as Bramhall then they are covered. If they had an agreement to pay the guard for whatever neccesary ticket were neccesary with the guard, they would be covered. If they were on the train with the intention of leaving at or before the last valid stop for their current 'ticket' that is also fine.

But if they were only found after Bramhall going south or arrived at Adlington and did not have the ticket to cover that part of the journey having boarded the train at Piccadilly, they could then be charged a Penalty Fare or prosecuted.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,034
Location
No longer here
I have recieved word from Northern's Customer Experience Centre on the subject of this.



Interesting changes... I was not previously aware of them removing the ticket selling duty from conductors.

Their second sentence does not make much sense to me personally.

Haha, Northern’s Customer Experience Centre. What a totally inadequate (and badly spelt) reply.
 

Adlington

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2016
Messages
1,039
This is assuming that the guard bothers to check tickets before Bramhall (or Adlington for that matter). The guards do respect passengers' privacy and tend to stay invisible :rolleyes:
 

Smidster

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2014
Messages
561
And the circumstances were?

I commute on the Airedale line and can attest to guards selling tickets and not mentioning to the passenger that they should have done anything different.

Every day they just come through and announce "anybody needing a ticket?" And this is from stations (e.g. Keighley) where there is no reason why they wouldn't have purchased before travel.

That is what annoys people like me - it is the inconsistency. It is fine to have a rule (providing it follows the process) but then you need to apply it. If somebody is sold a ticket normally on Monday and then on Tuesday they are treated like a serious fare evader and handed a punishment I can see why you would not be best pleased.
 

snail

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2011
Messages
1,848
Location
t'North
If someone didn't buy before boarding when they could have done, but isn't warned, then this implies that the person has done nothing wrong so they could justifiably do so again.
Anyone passing the large yellow notices at stations explaining penalty fares has had a warning. So they will get away with paying on train from time to time but as the PF scheme strengthens more people will get caught by revenue protection and the message will get through.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
So for some people on the fact that they haven' seen millions of pf's issued means the whole brand new where is a failure and must end. Well done
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
It has been well reported on here and I have seen with my own eyes that these notices, which are required to cover any entrance to a station, are not always in place.

Regardless, if they are in place, then they are still undermined if discounted tickets are sold onboard the train when a PF could have been due, but with no warning. I really don't understand how that's a difficult concept. There is even dedicated ticket stock which makes this clear, and warning notices can be issued on ticket stock, along with tickets, under these circumstances. The entire purpose of Penalty Fares is that there is no need for discretion and mixed messages are not given. Otherwise simply don't have the Penalty Fares. It's that simple.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,331
It has been well reported on here and I have seen with my own eyes that these notices, which are required to cover any entrance to a station, are not always in place.

Regardless, if they are in place, then they are still undermined if discounted tickets are sold onboard the train when a PF could have been due, but with no warning. I really don't understand how that's a difficult concept. There is even dedicated ticket stock which makes this clear, and warning notices can be issued on ticket stock, along with tickets, under these circumstances. The entire purpose of Penalty Fares is that there is no need for discretion and mixed messages are not given. Otherwise simply don't have the Penalty Fares. It's that simple.

And you have observed that those buying onboard are not presenting Promise to Pay notices?
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
So for some people on the fact that they haven' seen millions of pf's issued means the whole brand new where is a failure and must end. Well done

And don't forget that Northern guards have the audacity to sell tickets to paying passengers onboard, when the Forum Gurus have explicitly forbidden it even though there will be circumstances where it is entirely appropriate.... ;)
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,569
Location
Yorkshire
And don't forget that Northern guards have the audacity to sell tickets to paying passengers onboard, when the Forum Gurus have explicitly forbidden it even though there will be circumstances where it is entirely appropriate.... ;)

I've no problem with them selling tickets, but believe they should be warning people that next time they should use the machines and ticket offices where possible (these are often people paying with cards who boarded in the middle of the day at staffed stations). Perhaps some guards are, but some are not.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
I've no problem with them selling tickets, but believe they should be warning people that next time they should use the machines and ticket offices where possible (these are often people paying with cards who boarded in the middle of the day at staffed stations). Perhaps some guards are, but some are not.
And that in itself is not a failure of the system but a personnel issue which northern need to deal with.

As bantamzen states there seems to be an uneven balance from some posters about this as they have at times called for discretion to be used!!! Having cake and eating it once again comes to mind
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
3,475
Location
Reading
In common with other train companies granted the privilege of being allowed to issue Penalty Fares, Northern is supposed to agree that every time a ticket is sold on board in circumstances where a Penalty Fare could have been issued it will issue a printed warning to the passenger concerned and draw their attention to it. No exceptions! If anyone has convincing evidence this might not be happening, they should consider reporting it to Northern to help them eliminate this problem - otherwise passengers might not get into the habit of buying before boarding and the company might lose appeals against Penalty Fares on these grounds.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I've no problem with them selling tickets, but believe they should be warning people that next time they should use the machines and ticket offices where possible (these are often people paying with cards who boarded in the middle of the day at staffed stations). Perhaps some guards are, but some are not.

And that in itself is not a failure of the system but a personnel issue which northern need to deal with.

As bantamzen states there seems to be an uneven balance from some posters about this as they have at times called for discretion to be used!!! Having cake and eating it once again comes to mind

I don't disagree that guards ought to be informing ticketless passengers about penalty fares, and some do seem to so as Clip rightly says this is not necessarily a failure of Northern's scheme, but either a further training requirement or very possibly issues arising from the ongoing industrial dispute. But as Clip goes on to say, had Northern applied the letter of the regulations there would be some here calling for them to use more discretion! They are in a no-win situation on here, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

In common with other train companies granted the privilege of being allowed to issue Penalty Fares, Northern is supposed to agree that every time a ticket is sold on board in circumstances where a Penalty Fare could have been issued it will issue a printed warning to the passenger concerned and draw their attention to it. No exceptions! If anyone has convincing evidence this might not be happening, they should consider reporting it to Northern to help them eliminate this problem - otherwise passengers might not get into the habit of buying before boarding and the company might lose appeals against Penalty Fares on these grounds.

The new regulations as linked further above do say that when challenged by a Collector a customer can expect:

• To be spoken to politely and clearly
• To feel confident that they will be given an opportunity to provide an explanation
• To not feel victimized by Collectors
• To have the Penalty Fare process explained to them and to have their questions answered
• The right to a receipt if they pay the Penalty

And the definition of a Collector is:

A person who has been trained and employed to issue and collect Penalty Fares on behalf of a train company or station Operator.

So whilst you would hope that Northern guards on penalty fare routes would explain the regulations and remind passengers that it is their responsibility to obtain a valid ticket where possible before boarding, it is not in itself a direct requirement of the regulations as they stand.

However, and I keep banging on about this in the vain hope that it will stick, the regulations state quite clearly:

SECTION B
1. People Who May Be Charged a Penalty Fare
1.1 On a train
Any person travelling on the rail network must purchase and hold a valid ticket or authority to travel1, when they have the opportunity to do so, before starting their journey. If a customer cannot produce a valid ticket or authority to travel when asked by an Authorised Collector, or evidence to show the ability to purchase a ticket or authority to travel, they may be liable for a Penalty Fare.
Where available, a Permit to Travel or Promise to Pay can be produced if there was no facility to purchase a ticket from the station before you began your journey. If travelling with a discounted ticket, customers must also be able to present any supporting documentation (such as Railcards or other discount or concessionary pass) that validates their discounted ticket.

1.2 At a station
Any person who is present in a compulsory ticket area3 must be able to produce a valid ticket if they intend to travel, or other authority to be there if not, if asked by a Collector or other person on behalf of an Operator. Being unable to produce a relevant ticket or authority may make you liable for a Penalty Fare. See Exemptions in Chapter 5 for more details.

In both instances the regulations state that a passenger may be liable if travelling or intending to travel without a valid ticket or promise to pay. This is where TOC crews and RPOs have discretion to decide if a passenger had reasonable opportunity to obtain a ticket, or had circumstances that they consider reasonable to have not done so. This is because penalty fares are not designed to punish innocent passengers, despite what some might want to believe, bit to discourage those minority passengers who actively seek to evade fares. There is little point in people pointing to previous regulation, or sticking to their own interpretation of the new ones as the regulations as they stand are clearly available for all posters to this thread.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,063
Airedale: The passengers buying on board do not have PtP vouchers, the guards do not ask for them and don't mention the PF system or say that the passenger should have bought before boarding, and in some cases the passengers pay with a card.

Basically, the system is being ignored on board the trains.

I should also add that at Skipton in the morning someone is stood with a ticket machine to sell to the arriving passengers (including lots of school kids) who have not bought before boarding or on the train. Now some may want to assume that all of those queueing up to buy a ticket have a PtP and are paying cash, but I doubt it.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
3,475
Location
Reading
Northern would have agreed to those requirements in order to have its scheme approved under the old regime.

But on the face of it, the new regulations appear to have, without fanfare, rolled out penalty fares nationwide(*) and removed the former requirement for operators to seek approval from the DfT for individual penalty fares schemes. This makes the requirements for displaying posters more important than ever, as it seems now that Penalty Fares can be charged from any station nationwide - and introduced anywhere without advance notice or publicity. Many other protections the SRA formerly provided seem similarly to have fallen away.

(*) with some exceptions for Scotland and TfL

(AFAICT The requirement for schemes to be approved was part of the SRA's 2002 rules which had effect under the 1994 regulations; the 2018 regulations seem to contain no replacement provision, though curiously the RDG's explanatory document has a section 8 about changing a scheme that doesn't correspond to anything in the document it purports to be explaining.)
 
Last edited:

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Airedale: The passengers buying on board do not have PtP vouchers, the guards do not ask for them and don't mention the PF system or say that the passenger should have bought before boarding, and in some cases the passengers pay with a card.

Basically, the system is being ignored on board the trains.

I should also add that at Skipton in the morning someone is stood with a ticket machine to sell to the arriving passengers (including lots of school kids) who have not bought before boarding or on the train. Now some may want to assume that all of those queueing up to buy a ticket have a PtP and are paying cash, but I doubt it.

In the case of Skipton this is a good example of discretion being used, something that is not prohibited under the regulations. And it makes sense, potentially large flows of passengers arriving at a station served with other close by where numbers may make it difficult for all ticketless passengers to buy before their destination. So do you wait until an authorised collector arrives, or simply sell tickets and protect revenue, possibly in the process identifying the need for additional TVMs at the stations on route, or RPOs at the flows. I really can't see the issue with that.

As for your other observations, at what times of day are you seeing this? Because forgive me for saying it but many Aire services are very busy, so unless you are following the guards through the trains I find it somewhat difficult to believe that you can confirm with certainty that more than a handful of transactions are being made without valid reason.

Edit: And just to follow up on this last point, a passenger sat next to me on the 06:16 from Guiseley this morning boarded with P2P, the guard didn't take it or make any comment on it other than saying "Thanks" & proceeded to sell her a ticket for a cash payment. Had I not been sat next to her it would not have been obvious that she had this, as she barely raised it up.
 
Last edited:

185143

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2013
Messages
4,486
Airedale: The passengers buying on board do not have PtP vouchers, the guards do not ask for them and don't mention the PF system or say that the passenger should have bought before boarding, and in some cases the passengers pay with a card.

Basically, the system is being ignored on board the trains.

I should also add that at Skipton in the morning someone is stood with a ticket machine to sell to the arriving passengers (including lots of school kids) who have not bought before boarding or on the train. Now some may want to assume that all of those queueing up to buy a ticket have a PtP and are paying cash, but I doubt it.
School kids are unlikely to have cards that the machines will accept. So selling them tickets (assuming they do indeed pay cash/ask for seasons) seems fair enough-unless they have travelled from a staffed station.

My local station is heavily used by school kids, the majority board trains without tickets. Most travel from the next stop down the line, and there's at least 50 a day, each way I'd say-all on the same train. If they had to get a P2P each day, the machine at the origin (soon to be a PF) station will quickly be running out of tickets...
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,543
I've no problem with them selling tickets, but believe they should be warning people that next time they should use the machines and ticket offices where possible (these are often people paying with cards who boarded in the middle of the day at staffed stations). Perhaps some guards are, but some are not.

The guards are not at all incentivised to buy in to the scheme.

Firstly it reduces their sales commission and the TOCs invariably don't bother to do anything to address that. Consequently there is little interest in promoting the penalty fare scheme and trying to make it work as intended.

If the TOC made a proactive offer to put average commission on to basic pay it might help but they won't. So the guards don't care.

Secondly I've been there working as a guard where a route has gone from paytrain to penalty fare with TVMs. The machines are often busted, I've worked trains with revenue protection staff on a total of twice in a year (and they don't work Sundays or late at night for example at all!!) the scheme has been in place.

People get pissy when you tell them after 20 years they now have to use the unreliable and not particularly intuitive machines (The Northern ones are absolutely awful. Having had a play with one that serves one of our routes it took me 5 minutes to work out how to make it sell off peak day returns rather than anytime day returns) and it's aggro I don't need for a scheme I didn't want which is nothing at all to do with me.

But of course when the machines aren't working (which is often) they go back to paying the conductor on the train (as they did before).

Consequently my method of dealing with it is to sell anything on board (except from the booking office stations when open), point out the penalty fare blurb on the back of the ticket briefly and walk away unless someone asks for more detail.

I also don't bother dealing with fare evaders on the route as there's meant to be RPO squads on the route (who are paid more than me!) to sort that out. Never happens. I stick to selling tickets where required and carrying out safety and customer service duties.

What you NEED with these things is a shock and awe method - a week of RPIs out giving warnings and explanations and then a solid month of RPIs and BTP crunching every (legitimate) penalty fare they can, rather than leaving it to the guards to flounder around trying to explain something they aren't actually enforcing which is nothing to do with them and makes their life more difficult.
 

roversfan2001

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2016
Messages
1,666
Location
Lancashire
I saw a pair of Penalty Fare signs at the top of the stairs at Mill Hill (Lancs) station this evening, I didn't realise the East Lancashire Line was part of the scheme. At the bottom of the stairs was an out of use TVM. :lol: That TVM has been OOU more often than not since it was installed. Not quite on topic, but the guard was religiously selling tickets, even at 9.30pm, going as far as delaying the service by 5+ minutes to make sure everyone going from Bamber Bridge to Lostock Hall bought a ticket.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Northern state on twitter that:

https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/985956294476607488

Which is... interesting.

And for most lines it hasn't, but we already knew that didn't we? The Tweet doesn't mention the Aire or Wharfe lines at all, however what is really interesting is that it answers at least one of the questions raised by this thread, what happens if you want to buy a Ranger ticket from a TVM that doesn't sell them? Answer, get a P2P and buy the Ranger onboard. But then we already knew that didn't we?

Inadvertently Starmill you have helped to reduce the concerns about the rollout of the scheme, which is interesting as you have worked hard to create concerns about it. (I realise of course that you may be ignoring my posts but I'm sure you will be made aware of my comment)
 

Bwlch y Groes

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
210
Northern state on twitter that:

https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/985956294476607488

Which is... interesting.

So this is on me. I assumed from "you've put Penalty Fare notices up" that he was referring to a line where the trial hasn't started yet. Of course, he could have been referring to Airedale and Wharfedale, so I should have made that clearer

Incidentally, we recently got a complaint about the sort of Penalty Fare case that may cause a few issues. A customer boarded at Ben Rhydding, where the TVM was out of service, to travel to Skipton. The conductor didn't appear, so on changing at Shipley, they alighted to head to the ticket office, only to be stopped by a member of the loss prevention team and handed a Penalty Fare for not having a ticket having boarded at a station with ticket-buying facilities, even though those facilities were out of order
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,537
Location
Redcar
So this is on me. I assumed from "you've put Penalty Fare notices up" that he was referring to a line where the trial hasn't started yet. Of course, he could have been referring to Airedale and Wharfedale, so I should have made that clearer
Thank you for coming and clarifying. It's appreciated :)
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
So this is on me. I assumed from "you've put Penalty Fare notices up" that he was referring to a line where the trial hasn't started yet. Of course, he could have been referring to Airedale and Wharfedale, so I should have made that clearer

Incidentally, we recently got a complaint about the sort of Penalty Fare case that may cause a few issues. A customer boarded at Ben Rhydding, where the TVM was out of service, to travel to Skipton. The conductor didn't appear, so on changing at Shipley, they alighted to head to the ticket office, only to be stopped by a member of the loss prevention team and handed a Penalty Fare for not having a ticket having boarded at a station with ticket-buying facilities, even though those facilities were out of order

Now that is clearly an error on the member of staff on the revenue block. I realise you can't comment on individual cases, and I expect that this complaint would be upheld, but would there be a channel from complaint teams back to these revenue staff to ensure that these things don't happen over and over again? Its a more unfortunate situation as had the passenger used the stairs or lift (assuming that they were stopped at the entrance to the subway on P3) from P4 to P3 and headed directly to the ticket office entrance on the platform they would not have been stopped, so its a situation that I would hope would be rectified.
 

Bwlch y Groes

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
210
Now that is clearly an error on the member of staff on the revenue block. I realise you can't comment on individual cases, and I expect that this complaint would be upheld, but would there be a channel from complaint teams back to these revenue staff to ensure that these things don't happen over and over again?

In this situation I advised contacting the CEC to submit a complaint - I imagine this would then be fed back to the loss prevention team. I think the issue is about getting the information about which TVMs are active and which aren't back to the LPOs - because otherwise, that's basically expecting customers to photograph TVMs every time they try to buy from them if they are out of order, so that they have evidence to present there and then
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
3,475
Location
Reading
Under the rules under which Northern would have applied for their scheme, they would have had to satisfy the DfT that they had a suitable process in place to notify Authorised Collectors when machines were out of order so that they wouldn't issue any incorrect Penalty Fares. If this wasn't happening, people could report it to the DfT which had the power to suspend the scheme (in part or in full) until it got sorted out. But under the new rules (unless I've missed something?) Northern is no longer required to notify Authorised Collectors in these situations and the DfT has given up the power to suspend the issuing of Penalty Fares and instead everyone must use the appeals process. (An appeal should be granted automatically unless Northern can provide evidence that the machine was in fact working.)
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
In this situation I advised contacting the CEC to submit a complaint - I imagine this would then be fed back to the loss prevention team. I think the issue is about getting the information about which TVMs are active and which aren't back to the LPOs - because otherwise, that's basically expecting customers to photograph TVMs every time they try to buy from them if they are out of order, so that they have evidence to present there and then

As a developer, I would say this information should not be hard to come by. I imagine that the status of each TVM is logged, so when one goes off-line, runs out of tickets or develops a fault it can alert the relevant support team. So in turn, and in theory this information could be transmitted to a simple app that crews, revenue officers etc could have access to. Of course all this takes money & time, and might be something they are reluctant to do, but if large numbers of complaints were to emerge as a result then it is something they would have to consider. In the meantime however logs will be available to show when & where there are TVM fails, so any complaints or appeals ought to be able to be checked against them.

Under the rules under which Northern would have applied for their scheme, they would have had to satisfy the DfT that they had a suitable process in place to notify Authorised Collectors when machines were out of order so that they wouldn't issue any incorrect Penalty Fares. If this wasn't happening, people could report it to the DfT which had the power to suspend the scheme (in part or in full) until it got sorted out. But under the new rules (unless I've missed something?) Northern is no longer required to notify Authorised Collectors in these situations and the DfT has given up the power to suspend the issuing of Penalty Fares and instead everyone must use the appeals process. (An appeal should be granted automatically unless Northern can provide evidence that the machine was in fact working.)

Its perhaps worth considering that the new regs were probably already in development when Northern consulted with DfT, so they were probably aware of the impending changes at the start of the trialled implementation.
 

Bwlch y Groes

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
210
As a developer, I would say this information should not be hard to come by. I imagine that the status of each TVM is logged, so when one goes off-line, runs out of tickets or develops a fault it can alert the relevant support team. So in turn, and in theory this information could be transmitted to a simple app that crews, revenue officers etc could have access to. Of course all this takes money & time, and might be something they are reluctant to do, but if large numbers of complaints were to emerge as a result then it is something they would have to consider. In the meantime however logs will be available to show when & where there are TVM fails, so any complaints or appeals ought to be able to be checked against them.

Yes, there are definitely logs of when the machines are out of service. It'd be interesting to know exactly what happened in this case and how much information the LPO had. Overall I support the company's stance so I'm not concerned - the LPO can't always take the customer's word for it, so if they have no evidence that the TVM is out of service, they have no choice but to issue the PF, and the bigger picture is that that's the right stance to take. It's a fairly specific set of circumstances at Shipley too
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top