Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Currently those passes and other tickets like Wayfarers are only valid at off-peak times, currently this is post-09:30 but could well change if the off-peak times change.

Since reading your reply above about the implications of the rail usage within the TfGM boundary area of the TfGM-issued ENCTS passes, whilst this does not affect my wife and I, living as we do exterior to that area but having family friends who do so reside within those boundaries and having TfGM issued ENCTS passes, I spoke to one of my senior managerial contacts at TfGM this morning who indeed is aware of the matter under discussion in this thread. He has asked me to refute any suggestion that the existing TfGM-issued passes will be so affected by a Northern Rail decision to restrict the use of the evening peak rail travel to the holders of off-peak rail travel tickets.

TfGM set both the tram and rail extra add-on travel concessions to their own issued ENCTS passes and only TfGM, not Northern Rail, can decide what the times are when these passes can be used with regard to tram and train add-on facility.

 

[pemma]

TfGM set both the tram and rail extra add-on travel concessions to their own issued ENCTS passes and only TfGM, not Northern Rail, can decide what the times are when these passes can be used with regard to tram and train add-on facility.

I can't see that going down well. Passenger A shows a £6.50 off-peak day return on a train departing at 17:00, guard tells them that's invalid and they must excess to the £10 anytime day return fare. Passenger B sitting next to them shows an over 60s pass, guard says "Thank you."

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can't see that going down well. Passenger A shows a £6.50 off-peak day return on a train departing at 17:00, guard tells them that's invalid and they must excess to the £10 anytime day return fare. Passenger B sitting next to them shows an over 60s pass, guard says "Thank you."

You are comparing two totally different items of rail travel usage facility. Read the final paragraph of my posting that states the current TfGM view on the matter.

 

[Wolfie]

Since reading your reply above about the implications of the rail usage within the TfGM boundary area of the TfGM-issued ENCTS passes, whilst this does not affect my wife and I, living as we do exterior to that area but having family friends who do so reside within those boundaries and having TfGM issued ENCTS passes, I spoke to one of my senior managerial contacts at TfGM this morning who indeed is aware of the matter under discussion in this thread. He has asked me to refute any suggestion that the existing TfGM-issued passes will be so affected by a Northern Rail decision to restrict the use of the evening peak rail travel to the holders of off-peak rail travel tickets.

TfGM set both the tram and rail extra add-on travel concessions to their own issued ENCTS passes and only TfGM, not Northern Rail, can decide what the times are when these passes can be used with regard to tram and train add-on facility.

You are perfectly correct. Of course TfGM have to pay Northern a fee to allow passengers to use ENCTS tickets on their services. Don't be too surprised if the fee requested rises sharply (with DfT backing!) and TfGM then have to review what is available...

Does anyone have any idea of the current costs of a TfGM issued ENCTS versus say a London Freedom Pass (which does allow travel in the evening peak but not in the morning peak on most rail services)?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You are perfectly correct. Of course TfGM have to pay Northern a fee to allow passengers to use ENCTS tickets on their services. Don't be too surprised if the fee requested rises sharply (with DfT backing!) and TfGM then have to review what is available...

Does anyone have any idea of the current costs of a TfGM issued ENCTS versus say a London Freedom Pass (which does allow travel in the evening peak but not in the morning peak on most rail services)?

The TfGM-issued ENCTS card cannot be used for travel prior to 0930 (Monday to Friday) on buses, trams or trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't see that going down well. Passenger A shows a £6.50 off-peak day return on a train departing at 17:00, guard tells them that's invalid and they must excess to the £10 anytime day return fare. Passenger B sitting next to them shows an over 60s pass, guard says "Thank you."

May I return to this point, using the example of the friends that we have in Bramhall who hold TfGM-issued ENCTS passes. If they want to travel outside the TfGM boundary, they purchase tickets, prior to travel, from the nearest station to the boundary point where trains stop to their onwards destination, examples as shown below:-

Bramhall to Clitheroe
ENCTS pass covers the Bramhall to Bromley Cross line section.
Tickets are purchased prior to travel from Bromley Cross to Clitheroe.

Bramhall to Southport
ENCTS pass covers the Bramhall to Appley Bridge line section
Tickets are purchased prior to travel from Appley Bridge to Southport.

 

[greatkingrat]

I can't see that going down well. Passenger A shows a £6.50 off-peak day return on a train departing at 17:00, guard tells them that's invalid and they must excess to the £10 anytime day return fare. Passenger B sitting next to them shows an over 60s pass, guard says "Thank you."

It is no different to the situation on Virgin where one passenger has a £300 SOR, and the next person has a £50 railcard discounted SVR.

 

[RJ]

How does that compare to off-peak returns? Looking at Knutsford to other stations on the Mid-Cheshire line there are 15 x off-peak returns available and 1 x off peak single available (Knutsford to Chester.)

39947 CDRs priced by Northern.

Where CDS' exist, they tend to be significantly cheaper than the SDS. Consequently, the CDR is too.

Where they don't exist, the CDR is commonly only marginally more expensive than the SDS.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Since the holders of the TfGM issued ENTCS cards do not need to purchase any rail ticket in the times that travel is deemed allowable for journeys wholly within the recognised TfGM boundary of their acceptance, those passengers will see no difference.

I am very much aware of the concessionary travel arrangements within Greater Manchester, my point was more about the arrangements TfGM might have to look at.

....TfGM set both the tram and rail extra add-on travel concessions to their own issued ENCTS passes and only TfGM, not Northern Rail, can decide what the times are when these passes can be used with regard to tram and train add-on facility.

Indeed, however it should be noted that since the ENCTS cards were introduced, the OAP one has had changes to it's restrictions to allow TfGM to pay out less for them. It is quite possible (taking into account what you say on TfGM's behalf) that TfGM, at some point in the future, may choose to change the arrangements that currently stand.

The TfGM-issued ENCTS card cannot be used for travel prior to 0930 (Monday to Friday) on buses, trams or trains.

That's not entirely true. The OAP cards (blue band) is as you describe (excepting for Bank Holidays), the 'Concessionary' and 'Concessionary Plus' cards (yellow band) are not the same.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed, however it should be noted that since the ENCTS cards were introduced, the OAP one has had changes to it's restrictions to allow TfGM to pay out less for them. It is quite possible (taking into account what you say on TfGM's behalf) that TfGM, at some point in the future, may choose to change the arrangements that currently stand.

I take no issue with you over this matter, but was responding to thread statement that this coming September would see changes.

The TfGM position was made in reference to that particular deadline.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I apologise if I gave the impression that changes were on the horizon, I'm sure jcollins didn't intend to give it either, it was more a thought on my part than anything else, given recent developments in South Yorkshire and the forthcoming Off-Peak changes.

The information I get about TfGM changes (and Metrolink changes for that matter) usually arrive weeks (or sometimes days) before any changes come into effect.

 

[tony_mac]

A number of Northern services in Merseyside are already subject to an evening peak restriction, seemingly without any major problems. (And the restrictions do not extend to other off-peak products, like passes, ranger and rover tickets).

However, the price differential is usually much lower, and I'm not sure if it is even enforced. I have never once been advised of an evening restriction by ticket office staff when buying an off-peak day return, and I imagine that guards on the evening services won't really want to push through the crowds in order to be collecting 20p excesses from people!

 

[pemma]

A number of Northern services in Merseyside are already subject to an evening peak restriction, seemingly without any major problems. (And the restrictions do not extend to other off-peak products, like passes, ranger and rover tickets).

Merseyside PTE withdrew all (I think) off-peak fares and replaced them with Day Saver tickets: http://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver.aspx

Doing a quick search I can't see any off-peak day return tickets issued to/from Liverpool STNs with an evening peak restriction. There is a restriction on some Duo tickets between 1601 and 1759 though.

 

[tony_mac]

The day saver is only on Merseyrail, I was talking about the services that Northern operate in Merseyside;
i.e., to Liverpool via St Helens Central, St Helens Junction, or Halewood

 

[pemma]

The day saver is only on Merseyrail, I was talking about the services that Northern operate in Merseyside;
i.e., to Liverpool via St Helens Central, St Helens Junction, or Halewood

Ah right found them now. It looks like it's applies to fares set by Merseyrail (the rail division of the PTE) that aren't operated by Merseyrail (the operator.)

 

[Starmill]

I can't see that going down well. Passenger A shows a £6.50 off-peak day return on a train departing at 17:00, guard tells them that's invalid and they must excess to the £10 anytime day return fare. Passenger B sitting next to them shows an over 60s pass, guard says "Thank you."

No evening restrictions on Metrolink or to old/disabled people, but leisure travelers stung?

I wonder if Northern will offer people using Off-Peak Day tickets at invalid times a 'discretionary day'?

 

[pemma]

No evening restrictions on Metrolink or to old/disabled people, but leisure travelers stung?

According to the Metrolink website there are no evening peak restrictions on Metrolink.

 

[34D]

No evening restrictions on Metrolink or to old/disabled people, but leisure travelers stung?

I wonder if Northern will offer people using Off-Peak Day tickets at invalid times a 'discretionary day'?

Maybe those of us who are under 60 and non disabled should do a protest?

Shall I volunteer to get arrested and then others can speak to the media on my behalf?

 

[pemma]

Shouldn't Northern have already decided on off-peak restrictions if they are to introduce them in September? I could go on to a ticket selling website now and buy an off-peak day return for travel in October and it'll tell me that it's valid on trains leaving Manchester at around 5pm.

 

[fusionblue]

Shouldn't Northern have already decided on off-peak restrictions if they are to introduce them in September? I could go on to a ticket selling website now and buy an off-peak day return for travel in October and it'll tell me that it's valid on trains leaving Manchester at around 5pm.

What would happen in this instance? If you buy a ticket before the change and agree to the current restrictions but on the day you're limited to the new ones?

 

[bb21]

The prevailing terms when the contract was formed apply.

This is not as rare as it may appear, usually in terms of price, as revised fares do not apply until 28 days before a fares round takes place.

 

[pemma]

This is not as rare as it may appear, usually in terms of price, as revised fares do not apply until 28 days before a fares round takes place.

There's a bit of a difference though.

If said passenger has a ticket which says it's valid on 31st January but the price given at the old price it's obvious that it should be accepted as being valid.

If said passenger has a ticket which says it's valid on 6th October indicating it was purchased in advance then it's not obvious whether or not they purchased it before or after the new restrictions were announced. The date the ticket was printed is not always the same as the date purchased and would all the guards and RPIs be fully aware of the exact date the restriction was entered in to the ticketing system?

 

[David Goddard]

Will be interesting how the often mentioned (on here) jobsworth gorillas guarding places such as Preston footbridge will deal with these instances.

Evening peak restrictions are not new - in 1990 I travelled with my family from Harrogate to York. On returning, to use the later train we had to pay a 20p excess for my Mum and Dad!

 

[bb21]

There's a bit of a difference though.

If said passenger has a ticket which says it's valid on 31st January but the price given at the old price it's obvious that it should be accepted as being valid.

If said passenger has a ticket which says it's valid on 6th October indicating it was purchased in advance then it's not obvious whether or not they purchased it before or after the new restrictions were announced. The date the ticket was printed is not always the same as the date purchased and would all the guards and RPIs be fully aware of the exact date the restriction was entered in to the ticketing system?

If purchased at the station, the time of purchase would be printed on the ticket.

If purchased online, there would be a confirmation email showing evidence of the time of the transaction. The relevant transaction details could also be confirmed through the bank or the booking agent.

Try again.

 

[David Goddard]

How often would Joe public then think to take the confirmation email with them on their trip? WE (ie those in the know about these changes) would but not necessarily the occasional traveller

 

[bb21]

How often would Joe public then think to take the confirmation email with them on their trip? WE (ie those in the know about these changes) would but not necessarily the occasional traveller

They may not, but in the unlikely event that a dispute arises, there is evidence if required, even if not produced on the spot.

 

[David Goddard]

They may not, but in the unlikely event that a dispute arises, there is evidence if required, even if not produced on the spot.

Oh granted I get that, but they would probably be forced to pay any excess etc first, then complain later

 

[bb21]

Oh granted I get that, but they would probably be forced to pay any excess etc first, then complain later

They may, but there is no ideal solution for that. Even with perfectly valid tickets passengers can sometimes get into disputes with unknowledgeable staff who refuse to budge.

 

[maniacmartin]

Changing to a new restriction code would be the easiest fix here, then a guard could just check if the presented ticket as the old or new code printed on it

 

[Starmill]

Assuming a code prints on the ticket...

 

[Rail Ranger]

A recent set of TfGMC sub-committee minutes indicated that the Off-Peak ticket restrictions on Northern would apply from 1600 to 1830 but does anyone have any further details?