Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[IanXC]

But the question is whether this change will bring in enough revenue to counteract the negatives. I sincerely doubt it.

Quite. The way these specific changes have been implemented rather strikes me as being akin to using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

 

[yorkie]

But the question is whether this change will bring in enough revenue to counteract the negatives. I sincerely doubt it.

Don't forget Northern should be incurring costs of their Customer Services team having to issue apologies and refunds to customers who have been incorrectly sold Anytime tickets for journeys where the Off Peak fare was appropriate. Which reminds me, have you got your refund yet? If not, make sure you go to Passenger Focus and charge them an admin fee.

I know it's only a few quid, but if it was the other way round Northern might be prosecuting you (they have prosecuted people over sums less than a quid). And this is an important principle; we can't allow Northern to get away with this.

 

[yorksrob]

Don't forget Northern should be incurring costs of their Customer Services team having to issue apologies and refunds to customers who have been incorrectly sold Anytime tickets for journeys where the Off Peak fare was appropriate. Which reminds me, have you got your refund yet? If not, make sure you go to Passenger Focus and charge them an admin fee.

I know it's only a few quid, but if it was the other way round Northern would be prosecuting you. And this is an important principle; we can't allow Northern to get away with this.

Well, there is that. Thanks for the reminder !

 

[yorkie]

Well, there is that. Thanks for the reminder !

Happy to proof read, as always...

 

[Merseysider]

Don't forget Northern should be incurring costs of their Customer Services team having to issue apologies and refunds to customers who have been incorrectly sold Anytime tickets for journeys where the Off Peak fare was appropriate. Which reminds me, have you got your refund yet? If not, make sure you go to Passenger Focus and charge them an admin fee.

I know it's only a few quid, but if it was the other way round Northern might be prosecuting you (they have prosecuted people over sums less than a quid). And this is an important principle; we can't allow Northern to get away with this.

Surely staff should be selling people the ticket most time-appropriate for their journey (off-peak/anytime) based on their outward leg only? All this "what time are you coming back?" bull and selling an Anytime ticket because the passenger says they might be coming back between 4 and 6 is wrong. Sell the off-peak ticket and tell them to get an excess to Anytime if necessary later.

 

[Starmill]

Not the way the majority seem to be applying it, Jake!

I've also been sold an Anytime ticket where I didn't need one at Huddersfield (TPE) and Wakefield Westgate (EC), which I made them non-issue and sell me the correct ticket for my journey. I've posted about it before - it's simply not enough to trust that you'll get the right ticket for this sort of journey at a Northern ticket office now, so to anyone reading, check the price in advance and make sure you are sold an off-peak ticket.

 

[Merseysider]

Not the way the majority seem to be applying it, Jake!

I've also been sold an Anytime ticket where I didn't need one at Huddersfield (TPE) and Wakefield Westgate (EC), which I made them non-issue and sell me the correct ticket for my journey. I've posted about it before - it's simply not enough to trust that you'll get the right ticket for this sort of journey at a Northern ticket office now, so to anyone reading, check the price in advance and make sure you are sold an off-peak ticket.

I'm fully aware it's not the way the majority are applying it, and it's plain disgraceful!

It's either a training issue (staff not knowing off-peak validity) or, although I would hate to imagine it, the result of higher-up people telling staff to sell Anytime tickets to as many unsuspecting people as possible to raise more revenue. /cynicism

 

[Starmill]

My experience tells me it is a slimy combination of the two.

 

[TOCDriver]

If truth be told, the whole thing needs challenging in a court of law because I'm not convinced this is 100% legal.

 

[fowler9]

If truth be told, the whole thing needs challenging in a court of law because I'm not convinced this is 100% legal.

I don't agree with it but I'm not sure what is possibly illegal about it. We all agreed with privatising the railways, ahem, as long as hey don't break the terms of the contract what law has been broken?

 

[TOCDriver]

I don't agree with it but I'm not sure what is possibly illegal about it. We all agreed with privatising the railways, ahem, as long as hey don't break the terms of the contract what law has been broken?

I refer you to the last edition of RAIL magazine and the splitting of journeys. At present, if you start your journey at off-peak but must change to a different service within the evening peak to complete your journey, you are not allowed to do that under present conditions, until after 18:30. That's the questionable legality of it

 

[fowler9]

I refer you to the last edition of RAIL magazine and the splitting of journeys. At present, if you start your journey at off-peak but must change to a different service within the evening peak to complete your journey, you are not allowed to do that under present conditions, until after 18:30. That's the questionable legality of it

Ah right. That sounds a bit ropey.

 

[TOCDriver]

Ah right. That sounds a bit ropey.

It's very ropey, mate. Somebody needs to challenge this because it's not on.

 

[Merseysider]

I refer you to the last edition of RAIL magazine and the splitting of journeys. At present, if you start your journey at off-peak but must change to a different service within the evening peak to complete your journey, you are not allowed to do that under present conditions, until after 18:30. That's the questionable legality of it

If I'm making a return journey and have to change trains before 6.30, I've got around that a couple of times by purchasing an off-peak ticket for the bit that will be peak on the way back, and getting an overdistance excess (also off-peak) for the rest of the journey.

On the way back, hide the overdistance excess, and for the last bit of the journey get charged a peak excess for that segment only rather than the through ticket

 

[Starmill]

It's very ropey, mate. Somebody needs to challenge this because it's not on.

I could scarcely agree more with you, or, on this occasion, Mr Doe.

 

[muz379]

Yes! Without a doubt this is Northern's fault! Look how LM introduced restrictions in the West Midlands and surrounding area, in a carefully thought out way that actually matched the service on the ground.

I'm fed up with people trying to pass the buck to the DfT. The DfT just said raise more money, not screw your customers over (and it is often to almost no benefit).

So how else did you expect Northern to raise the money the DFT was taking off them ?

Car parking charges where the only other idea that got close to conception - the problem with these are that the PTE's did not want them . Despite you wanting to live your life in some perfect way without a car , some people because of where they live actually need a car . I know people that drive to a station every day because they do not live anywhere near a train station . They are in my opinion doing the right thing because many people once they are in the car will no doubt just drive all the way to work causing more environmental damage .

Although you are not intending to be a car owner some car owners might have been put off from raising their costs as well , or parking charges might have taken away some of their motivations to use the train and made more people drive right the way to work .

I'm fully aware it's not the way the majority are applying it, and it's plain disgraceful!

It's either a training issue (staff not knowing off-peak validity) or, although I would hate to imagine it, the result of higher-up people telling staff to sell Anytime tickets to as many unsuspecting people as possible to raise more revenue. /cynicism

Not the way the majority seem to be applying it, Jake!

I've also been sold an Anytime ticket where I didn't need one at Huddersfield (TPE) and Wakefield Westgate (EC), which I made them non-issue and sell me the correct ticket for my journey. I've posted about it before - it's simply not enough to trust that you'll get the right ticket for this sort of journey at a Northern ticket office now, so to anyone reading, check the price in advance and make sure you are sold an off-peak ticket.

How do either of you know what the majority of staff are doing ? Have either of you visited even 10% of Northern run booking offices , or travelled on 10% of Northern trains and attempted to purchase a ticket from a northern Guard .

I think not , so dont you think it is a bit inappropriate suggesting that majority of the staff haven't got a clue . Im sure some have , just like some passengers havent got a clue .

But im sure if I started mouthing off saying majority of rail passengers have not got a clue what they are going on about you would be very quick to point out with the 3 or 4 trains I work a day I come nowhere near the majority of train passengers .

As for Northern telling staff to mis sell , I can confirm that from my experience this is not the case . I have been selling passengers an off peak after 9:30 unless they specifically ask for the anytime , or I ask/they tell me they are coming back in the evening peak .

 

[PermitToTravel]

Have either of you visited even 10% of Northern run booking offices , or travelled on 10% of Northern trains and attempted to purchase a ticket from a northern Guard .

I think starmill actually has visited and used well over 10% of Northern-run ticket offices!

 

[Howardh]

Nobody's managed to answer this one yet...
Train goes through Adlington>Lostock>Bolton>Manchester.
If I bought an off-peak ticket for Adlington - Manchester return, but got on at Lostock (or Bolton) would I be breaking the rules?
Reason - I can get an evening return from Adlington but not Lostock.

 

[pemma]

Nobody's managed to answer this one yet...
Train goes through Adlington>Lostock>Bolton>Manchester.
If I bought an off-peak ticket for Adlington - Manchester return, but got on at Lostock (or Bolton) would I be breaking the rules?
Reason - I can get an evening return from Adlington but not Lostock.

No BOJ restriction mentioned here: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=ADL&dest=0438&tkt=ECD

 

[Howardh]

So after 6.30 I could go to Bolton station, bang in Adlington Lancs-Manchester AS evening return in the ticket machine, get on any train there going into Manchester and save a quid?

Sounds like a plan.

 

[Merseysider]

So after 6.30 I could go to Bolton station, bang in Adlington Lancs-Manchester AS evening return in the ticket machine, get on any train there going into Manchester and save a quid?

Sounds like a plan.

No, as far as I'm aware, you can't select a different origin on Bolton's TVMs. You can purchase it online and collect it though.

How long before TPE notice and remove the ECD from sale? Not long, the amount of attention we're bringing to it...

 

[pemma]

No, as far as I'm aware, you can't select a different origin on Bolton's TVMs. You can purchase it online and collect it though.

How long before TPE notice and remove the ECD from sale? Not long, the amount of attention we're bringing to it...

TPE haven't been required to introduce stricter ticketing restrictions by DfT so it may not be a mistake to still have it available.

I imagine TPE acquired that because they took over some FNW services.

 

[Howardh]

It's not a TPE service as far as I know - Adlington is mostly served by Northern Fail. Was thinking of popping down to the shops close to Horwich, popping into Horeich station and buying for a trip tomorrow Adlington - Manchester and then parking and getting on at Horwich.

I have frequently bought a ticket at Horwich but asked them to do Bolton - Windermere return but got on at Horwich (and off at Bolton) and never had any problems. Cheaper than Horwich/Windermere day ret + Hor/Bon single.

 

[Deerfold]

No, as far as I'm aware, you can't select a different origin on Bolton's TVMs. You can purchase it online and collect it though.

How long before TPE notice and remove the ECD from sale? Not long, the amount of attention we're bringing to it...

I suspect TPE will be happy enough as they probably get more revenue allocation from that ticket without having to carry the people using it...

 

[pemma]

It's not a TPE service as far as I kno

We're talking about who sets the fare. See the link I posted in reply to your earlier post.

 

[Starmill]

If anyone wants one of thoer tickets do not buy one from a Northern or Manchester ticket office. The clerk will probably just tell you they have been withdrawn. If they do look it up that's unlikely to end well for either party.

Buy it on the Southern website, you can refund it for free if you decide not to travel and are yet to collect.

 

[Merseysider]

I suspect TPE will be happy enough as they probably get more revenue allocation from that ticket without having to carry the people using it...

TPE do operate to Bolton/Salford Crescent. That said I suppose it would be NT getting narked about it.

Slightly different point - are TPE enforcing the new evening restrictions on their trains or just letting it slide? The changes affect them even though they weren't asked to cut subsidy :roll:

 

[Howardh]

I suspect TPE will be happy enough as they probably get more revenue allocation from that ticket without having to carry the people using it...

TPE won't be bothered one jot - but what about the guard on the NR train? I've done it the other way without any problem loads of times, but if NR start to spot this anomaly they could become a bit awkward? But, as asked, is there anything to stop me?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If anyone wants one of thoer tickets do not buy one from a Northern or Manchester ticket office. The clerk will probably just tell you they have been withdrawn. If they do look it up that's unlikely to end well for either party.

Buy it on the Southern website, you can refund it for free if you decide not to travel and are yet to collect.

They can't tell you it's been withdrawn if it hasn't. That's clearly fraud in my book

 

[Starmill]

I was told they were unavailable any more no less than 3 times at different Northern booking offices before they had actually been withdrawn. Make of that as you will.

 

[Howardh]

I was told they were unavailable any more no less than 3 times at different Northern booking offices before they had actually been withdrawn. Make of that as you will.

The one I'm after HASN'T been withdrawn... http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/ADL/Manchester/today/1830/dep/today/2130/dep