Northern/TPE refranchising

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What were the units that went from Northern to EMT recently ?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

What were the units that went from Northern to EMT recently ?

Think they were the 156's

 

[pemma]

What were the units that went from Northern to EMT recently ?

4 of the former Northern Spirit 156s, they were replaced at Northern by some of the cascaded LM 150s, as where the 180s.
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Think they were the 156's

They definitely were 156s - somewhere on the net someone's posted a picture of one of them with a new internal notice saying something along the lines of "East Midlands Trains has recently acquired this train so we apologise that the interior does not meet our usual standards."

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

4 of the former Northern Spirit 156s, they were replaced at Northern by some of the cascaded LM 150s, as where the 180s.

156's and 180's being replaced by 150's. This sounds like the deal that was made as part of the storyline at the start of Jack and the Beanstalk....

However, in this real life story, there is nothing in "the giant's castle" to bring a happy ending..:roll:

 

[pemma]

156's and 180's being replaced by 150's. This sounds like the deal that was made as part of the storyline at the start of Jack and the Beanstalk....

However, in this real life story, there is nothing in "the giant's castle" to bring a happy ending..:roll:

That is the happy ending! Originally the plan was for the LO 150s to go to Northern before the Dec 08 timetable change but they weren't available in time so the 180s came instead. FGW then agreed a deal with DfT for them to get the LO 150s and release the 7x142s. DfT then tried to get Northern to release the 180s for the 7x142s but no deal was reached so the 142s remained at FGW in the interim and the 180s eventually finished up being replaced by LM 150s with the FGW 142s returning as extra capacity not replacement units.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That is the happy ending!..."and the 180s eventually finished up being replaced by LM 150s with the FGW 142s returning as extra capacity not replacement units".

If this is the case, then both of us listened to very different "fairy tales" as children...:cry:

This one sounds not unlike the ending of "The King's new clothes"...:roll:

 

[David10]

DfT then tried to get Northern to release the 180s for the 7x142s

Doubt the 180s would have been much use to FGW. The 142s were sent to FGW to release 158s from Devon to allow Cardiff - Portsmouth services to be strenghened to 3 cars.

 

[tbtc]

156's and 180's being replaced by 150's. This sounds like the deal that was made as part of the storyline at the start of Jack and the Beanstalk....

However, in this real life story, there is nothing in "the giant's castle" to bring a happy ending..:roll:

Going off topic a bit, I know... but it was a net increase for Northern (especially when you consider how the fifteen coaches of 180 that Northern "lost" saw only 574 seats a day in use when all were working - frequently at least one was unfit though)

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Going off topic a bit, I know... but it was a net increase for Northern (especially when you consider how the fifteen coaches of 180 that Northern "lost" saw only 574 seats a day in use when all were working - frequently at least one was unfit though)

Try explaining that to your average passenger that all they want to do is get home in reasonable comfort!

 

[pemma]

Doubt the 180s would have been much use to FGW. The 142s were sent to FGW to release 158s from Devon to allow Cardiff - Portsmouth services to be strenghened to 3 cars.

The LO 150s should have replaced the 142s but FGW used them as additional capacity until the LM 150s arrived. Had East Coast required the 180s still then FGW wouldn't have been able to have both the LO 150s and the 142s at the same time.
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Going off topic a bit, I know... but it was a net increase for Northern (especially when you consider how the fifteen coaches of 180 that Northern "lost" saw only 574 seats a day in use when all were working - frequently at least one was unfit though)

Passengers see capacity on the services they use not total capacity Northern have at their disposal.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Doubt the 180s would have been much use to FGW. The 142s were sent to FGW to release 158s from Devon to allow Cardiff - Portsmouth services to be strengthened to 3 cars.

Before the matter of the 180s that Northern returned from their lease is finally put to rest, is there anyone on the forum who can say what will be done with regard to remedying the operational problems that were reported upon these forums in past days. What is the current remaining life-expectancy of these units ?.

 

[danielnez1]

The North East has a bit of a dilemma, on one hand we can join in with a larger Northern franchise dominated by Leeds/Manchester or we could go it alone.

In terms of new rolling stock fro the North East, a Northern representative made it clear that the North East is unlikely to receive any new rolling stock bar cascades due to the fact that we don’t have enough services or passenger numbers to justify it.

While it’s not nice to hear, I 100% agree with that. An unfortunate side effect of the Tyne and Wear Metro is that it cherry picked arguably the better routes in terms of service intensity and passenger numbers, leaving the secondary and more peripheral routes behind.

While the Metro is one thing, the biggest issue is the chronic apathy of the local authorities, particularly Nexus. Nexus still seem to be somewhat awestruck and obsessed with the Metro with such comments as “We lucky to have the Metro given the size of Tyne and Wear” and don’t really seem to want to build on its success or look beyond it.

There is some signs of progress, Northumberland County Councils case for re-opening the Ashington, Blyth and Tyne line is slowly inching forward but outside of that there doesn’t seem to be much progress in other areas.

Regardless of what happens to the Northern franchise, unless the local authorities in the North East aggressively push for improvements, nothing much will change. The phrase shy bairns get nowt comes to mind.

 

[tbtc]

Passengers see capacity on the services they use not total capacity Northern have at their disposal.

...and many routes saw an increase in capacity after the recent cascade.

 

[pemma]

...and many routes saw an increase in capacity after the recent cascade.

True but some services didn't see an increase and saw newer stock like 180s and 156s being replaced by older 150s, so it was a lose lose situation for those routes.

 

[tbtc]

True but some services didn't see an increase and saw newer stock like 180s and 156s being replaced by older 150s, so it was a lose lose situation for those routes.

Most services in Yorkshire/ North East saw no change in capacity (I think there was one additional 142 for the entire Heaton operation?) - the capacity increase was mainly in/around Manchester.

However I note that you are moving the goalposts from "capacity" to new/old trains, so I'm not sure where the argument is going...

 

[pemma]

Most services in Yorkshire/ North East saw no change in capacity (I think there was one additional 142 for the entire Heaton operation?) - the capacity increase was mainly in/around Manchester.

Don't forget when Northern got the extra 158s it was Yorkshire that gained the most from extra capacity with Merseyside also gaining some capacity. Manchester was playing catch up this time. Yorkshire also got 20 extra carriages in the form of the 322s this time.

However I note that you are moving the goalposts from "capacity" to new/old trains, so I'm not sure where the argument is going...

I thought it was stating the obvious that a 150 is smaller than a 156 and a 180 is smaller than 2x150s. They are older and smaller hence I said "lose lose situation" for some routes.

 

[John55]

I thought it was stating the obvious that a 150 is smaller than a 156 and a 180 is smaller than 2x150s. They are older and smaller hence I said "lose lose situation" for some routes.

According to my spotters handbook the capacity of the DMUs in question is;

180............268 seats
156............150
150/1.........141
150/2.........132

(with many variations depending on who did what to which at the last refresh/refurbishment.)

The 180s are clearly much nicer to travel in and have more standing room than a 156 but it is a bit hard to say that any substitution of 2 x 150 for 2 x 156 or a 180 is a reduction in capacity.

 

[pemma]

According to my spotters handbook the capacity of the DMUs in question is;

180............268 seats
156............150
150/1.........141
150/2.........132

(with many variations depending on who did what to which at the last refresh/refurbishment.)

The 180s are clearly much nicer to travel in and have more standing room than a 156 but it is a bit hard to say that any substitution of 2 x 150 for 2 x 156 or a 180 is a reduction in capacity.

Not sure why you've got a higher number for a 150/1 as they had a lower capacity originally - I think those must be average figures which include the FGW and ATW 150/2s with 2+2 seating.

Just under half of the Northern 150s are the former FNW 150s which all have less seats than the originals. I understand these have around 124 seats per set.

Also remember seats on the Northern 150s are all 3+2 formation, while the 156s and 180s are 2+2 (2+1 in one carriage on the 180s.) If Eric Pickles and John Prescott are on the train and it was 3+2 seating then you'll have all the seats occupied and less people seated than number of seats.

 

[John55]

Not sure why you've got a higher number for a 150/1 as they had a lower capacity originally - I think those must be average figures which include the FGW and ATW 150/2s with 2+2 seating.

Just under half of the Northern 150s are the former FNW 150s which all have less seats than the originals. I understand these have around 124 seats per set.

Also remember seats on the Northern 150s are all 3+2 formation, while the 156s and 180s are 2+2 (2+1 in one carriage on the 180s.) If Eric Pickles and John Prescott are on the train and it was 3+2 seating then you'll have all the seats occupied and less people seated than number of seats.

150101 has 71 seats in the DMSL and 70 in the DMS according tp Platform 5.

150201 has 62 seats in the DMSL and 70 in the DMS according tp Platform 5.

I think both are typical of Northerns units at Newton Heath and Neville Hill.

 

[pemma]

150101 has 71 seats in the DMSL and 70 in the DMS according tp Platform 5.

150201 has 62 seats in the DMSL and 70 in the DMS according tp Platform 5.

I think both are typical of Northerns units at Newton Heath and Neville Hill.

150101 is not a 'typical' Northern unit as it's a cascaded LM one. Neither is 150201 which has it's original higher density interior but some seats removed for a wheelchair bay, something Northern will probably do with the ex-LM ones if they have not started doing so already.

The former FNW ones have had an accessible toilet installed, larger replacement seats, new bike/luggage rack, facing seats (more on some units than others) and have a designated wheelchair bay - all this reduces the seating capacity.

This is how the interior looks on the former FNW ones, which make up just under half of Northern's 150 fleet:
http://www.gbrailwayworld.co.uk/Tra...nteriors/i-QDB3DpB/0/M/150-1-Interior-2-M.jpg so with a 2x150s combination there's a high chance that at least one of the units has this style of interior.

You're referring to this type of interior:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:150201_interior.JPG

 

[tbtc]

Don't forget when Northern got the extra 158s it was Yorkshire that gained the most from extra capacity with Merseyside also gaining some capacity. Manchester was playing catch up this time

So the argument has moved on from

Northern got a bad deal in the recent cascades

...to...

Some Northern routes get a poorer service than they previously had

...to...

Some Northern routes don't see any capacity increase

...to...

But Yorkshire and Merseyside got enhancements previously, so this improvement for the Manchester area is only playing catch up?

 

[pemma]

So the argument has moved on from

Northern got a bad deal in the recent cascades

Not the argument I put forward.

Some Northern routes get a poorer service than they previously had

I never said poorer service but poorer rolling stock in the form of older and slightly smaller units. I can't see why that isn't a valid point.

Some Northern routes don't see any capacity increase

Which was your new argument.

But Yorkshire and Merseyside got enhancements previously, so this improvement for the Manchester area is only playing catch up?

Was in response to your new argument.

 

[John55]

150101 is not a 'typical' Northern unit as it's a cascaded LM one. Neither is 150201 which has it's original higher density interior but some seats removed for a wheelchair bay, something Northern will probably do with the ex-LM ones if they have not started doing so already.

The former FNW ones have had an accessible toilet installed, larger replacement seats, new bike/luggage rack, facing seats (more on some units than others) and have a designated wheelchair bay - all this reduces the seating capacity.

This is how the interior looks on the former FNW ones, which make up just under half of Northern's 150 fleet:
http://www.gbrailwayworld.co.uk/Tra...nteriors/i-QDB3DpB/0/M/150-1-Interior-2-M.jpg so with a 2x150s combination there's a high chance that at least one of the units has this style of interior.

You're referring to this type of interior:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:150201_interior.JPG

You are correct I had made a mistake. I have had a look at the rolling stock in more detail and re-check in my P5 book.

Most of Northern 150/1 and 150/2s have more seats than I thought so I am pleased to be able to say that my table can be modified to show seating varying between 124 for 30% of the fleet to 149 for 10% of the fleet.

On average NRs 150s seem to have 135 seats so the replacement of a 180 by a 150 will probably mean 2 more seats for the passengers.

 

[pemma]

On average NRs 150s seem to have 135 seats so the replacement of a 180 by a 150 will probably mean 2 more seats for the passengers.

135 x 2 = 270

Capacity of 180 = 287

I'm not sure how that one works.