Northern TVMs not set up to issue 'Promise to Pay'?

[rs101]

It's also badly worded - what if I wanted to pay with RTV?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Have you read the byelaws? I think it is intended to be a ticket, notwithstanding the (incorrect?) use of the word 'notice' and the poor phraseology - in other words, Northern treats it as an 'authority to travel subject to conditions', even though there's nothing on the item itself to say that it provides authority to travel.

Let's put it this way, if they are relying on the argument that a PtPN, that doesn't state anywhere that it gives any kind of authority to travel (only that it imbues an obligation to pay), provides the requisite authority to travel to constitute a ticket. Well, then they're more or less up a creek without a paddle!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It's also badly worded - what if I wanted to pay with RTV?

The wording of the RTV itself usually says something along the lines of "accepted as payment at all railway stations in Britain" (it varies between different issuing TOCs but that is the norm). That way it is an authority to board without a valid ticket, if the facilities at your boarding station don't allow for it.

 

[najaB]

Let's put it this way, if they are relying on the argument that a PtPN, that doesn't state anywhere that it gives any kind of authority to travel...

It doesn't explicitly, but it does implicitly - how can you pay onboard staff if you don't get on the train?

 

[Puffing Devil]

You may assert that the PTP has no legal standing. However, if a case comes to court under the Byelaws then it provides the defendant with a rock-solid defence - not that it would get there in the first place. Without the PTP any defendant has a substantially weaker case.

You may enjoy the thought experiment discussing the legal validity of a PTP, back in the Magistrates court you will find that a passenger prosecuted for not having a ticket and not getting a PTP (when available) with find themselves convicted.

I cannot believe you're still playing around with this..... either run it at trial, get a qualified opinion or give it up.

 

[rs101]

The wording of the RTV itself usually says something along the lines of "accepted as payment at all railway stations in Britain" (it varies between different issuing TOCs but that is the norm). That way it is an authority to board without a valid ticket, if the facilities at your boarding station don't allow for it.

But that suggests anyone with an RTV can board without purchasing a ticket but won't get a penalty fare..


The PtP clearly states that the holder must buy a ticket with cash only, says nothing about cash or RTV

 

[Bantamzen]

I cannot believe you're still playing around with this..... either run it at trial, get a qualified opinion or give it up.

Its the only way a definitive answer can be established. Personally I would not advise anyone to test it, there is always the risk that they would lose. However if the feelings about it are strong enough, then at the very least any legal advice sought on the legality of a Promise To Pay ought to be published here so that any member who decides to take it to trial can have at least some confidence in what they might be pursuing.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But that suggests anyone with an RTV can board without purchasing a ticket but won't get a penalty fare..


The PtP clearly states that the holder must buy a ticket with cash only, says nothing about cash or RTV

A Permit to Travel is clearly not needed if the RTV already shows that it entitles you to board without a ticket.

 

[rs101]

A Permit to Travel is clearly not needed if the RTV already shows that it entitles you to board without a ticket.

Are you saying I can board at any station without buying a ticket because I want to pay with RTVs? Certainly sounds like it.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Are you saying I can board at any station without buying a ticket because I want to pay with RTVs? Certainly sounds like it.

If the facilities don't cater for it, how else are you expected to use it?

 

[island]

I have run this a few times on Southeastern joining at unmanned stations and asking to buy a ticket with an RTV at the destination. It has never been refused, and in most cases the gateline attendant has just let me through and told me to go to the booking office.