Northern unit allocation

[HullRailMan]

Is there any logic behind the units that Northern allocate to different routes?

Scarborough/Bridlington-Hull-Sheffield has been class 158 for years and that seems to be the right unit for a long distance route of up to 3 hours. Since the May timetable change however certain diagrams feature class 150’s and pacers which aren’t at all suitable for this length of journey. Why would they do that?

I’ve asked the question of Northern who just gave the stock answer of having limited resources and that the pacers are being retired. They haven’t answerd the specific question about why they changed the unit allocation in May.

 

[cuccir]

I don't pretend to understand the detail - there's been many threads such as this one on Pacer replacement, or this one on unit refurbishment - but essentially in May 2018 Northern started running extra services, but without the rolling stock to cover them.

This is because they'd anticipated being able to use electric trains on various lines in Lancashire. However, electrification didn't happen as quickly as projected and so they were unable to get these new trains out. Furthermore, delayed electrification elsewhere in the country has also meant that new diesel stock that was meant to be replacing pacers hasn't yet been made available to Northern. Where new trains have become available to run, the industrial action that's been going on for the last year or so has reduced the time available to train-up drivers on them, delaying their wider use.

These factors have combined to mean that Northern are having to run more services with less rolling stock, and so their allocation of stock is quite frankly all over the place. A lot of services, particularly around Manchester, are regularly running short-formed, so it's not just East Yorkshire which is experiencing inadequate stock levels. I think at the moment they're chasing themselves to try and get any stock out to many services so I doubt there's anywhere near as much logic behind allocation as there might have been in the past.

At some point things will get better, Pacers will be withdrawn, and more appropriate trains will return to various routes across the north. I think the end of 2019 timeline is optimistic, particularly given that by then Northern are meant to be launching a raft of more 'Northern Connect' services by then. This post though is more optimistic:

Would make sense for [Pacer] withdrawals to ramp up in May. The 37/MkII finishes at the start of next year, so there may only be a minor net gain with the Scotrail cascades.
But as of May: full EMU timetable for Bolton services, a chance Northern will have decided which routes they want to send the 170s on, more 195s and 331s delivered, and the ScotRail cascaded 156s and 158s. Hardly a bleak outlook

 

[pemma]

What changed in May in Yorkshire was the Lincoln-Sheffield got joined on to the Sheffield-Leeds which created the new longer service Northern promised as part of Northern Connect but as the new 195s aren't ready it means one long service has to get the 144s and 150s which used to run Lincoln-Sheffield until May.

I believe the original planned changes was for Hull to get 155s (released from Harrogate by the introduction of 170s) in lieu of 158s, did that not happen for some reason?

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't pretend to understand the detail - there's been many threads such as this one on Pacer replacement, or this one on unit refurbishment - but essentially in May 2018 Northern started running extra services, but without the rolling stock to cover them.

This is because they'd anticipated being able to use electric trains on various lines in Lancashire. However, electrification didn't happen as quickly as projected and so they were unable to get these new trains out. Furthermore, delayed electrification elsewhere in the country has also meant that new diesel stock that was meant to be replacing pacers hasn't yet been made available to Northern. Where new trains have become available to run, the industrial action that's been going on for the last year or so has reduced the time available to train-up drivers on them, delaying their wider use.

These factors have combined to mean that Northern are having to run more services with less rolling stock, and so their allocation of stock is quite frankly all over the place. A lot of services, particularly around Manchester, are regularly running short-formed, so it's not just East Yorkshire which is experiencing inadequate stock levels. I think at the moment they're chasing themselves to try and get any stock out to many services so I doubt there's anywhere near as much logic behind allocation as there might have been in the past.

At some point things will get better, Pacers will be withdrawn, and more appropriate trains will return to various routes across the north. I think the end of 2019 timeline is optimistic, particularly given that by then Northern are meant to be launching a raft of more 'Northern Connect' services by then. This post though is more optimistic:

I think this sums it up quite well, various delays with infrastructure projects have led to delays in moving units, which means even more so than before the unit allocation is going to be a bit random. Add to that there being problems with some of the cascaded stock, at least one 170 & the other day a 156 had a wobble on the move from Scotland to Northern meaning that they have less cascades, which means spreading the load a bit thinner across the network. I'd hate to be an allocator right now.....

What changed in May in Yorkshire was the Lincoln-Sheffield got joined on to the Sheffield-Leeds which created the new longer service Northern promised as part of Northern Connect but as the new 195s aren't ready it means one long service has to get the 144s and 150s which used to run Lincoln-Sheffield until May.

I believe the original planned changes was for Hull to get 155s (released from Harrogate by the introduction of 170s) in lieu of 158s, did that not happen for some reason?

Certainly as of last week some 155s were still operating on the Harrogate line. Whether the latest batch of moves will allow the 155s to be moved to Hull remains to be seen.

 

[wezmerc]

If I remember correctly they needed the 90mph capability of the 158's on other more time crucial paths.

 

[HullRailMan]

I think this sums it up quite well, various delays with infrastructure projects have led to delays in moving units, which means even more so than before the unit allocation is going to be a bit random. Add to that there being problems with some of the cascaded stock, at least one 170 & the other day a 156 had a wobble on the move from Scotland to Northern meaning that they have less cascades, which means spreading the load a bit thinner across the network. I'd hate to be an allocator right now.....



Certainly as of last week some 155s were still operating on the Harrogate line. Whether the latest batch of moves will allow the 155s to be moved to Hull remains to be seen.

We do see 155’s at Hull but only on the York services.
Brid-Sheffield is anything from a single 153 to a pacer, 150 or 158 at the moment. I had a lovely ex-Merseyrail 142 again today

 

[td97]

Scarborough/Bridlington-Hull-Sheffield has been class 158 for years and that seems to be the right unit for a long distance route of up to 3 hours. Since the May timetable change however certain diagrams feature class 150’s and pacers which aren’t at all suitable for this length of journey. Why would they do that?

See here

Should be seeing 170s on the Hull - Sheffield work in the not too distant future.

 

[td97]

This post though is more optimistic:

And I forgot to mention the 769s!

 

[Andy Pacer]

We do see 155’s at Hull but only on the York services.
Brid-Sheffield is anything from a single 153 to a pacer, 150 or 158 at the moment. I had a lovely ex-Merseyrail 142 again today

Just out of interest if a Pacer does appear in this route is it most likely to be Newton Heath based?