Northern Unit Refurbishments

[Harvey B]

372/373 and 446 are on short term loan till the "flex" trains are ready

im not counting the 769s either so either:
More units are due to transfer to Northern to make up the 243 units that are supposed to be refurbished
or
I've gone wrong in my maths somewhere
here's what I did (based on @507021's fleet list below):
https://merseyrailpep507.blogspot.com/p/unofficial-northern-fleet-list.html
based on the amount of units going for refurbishment (minus the 769's, 323's, short term 319's & the 1 Class 180 that is subleased)
we have:
78 Class 150's
7 Class 155's
47 Class 156's
53 Class 158's
16 Class 170's
24 Class 319's
16 Class 333's
If you add those together they add up to 241 units so either:
there's 2 more units transferring to Northern
or
I have gone wrong in my maths somewhere and I've miscounted the amount of units by 2.

 

[darloscott]

Could it possibly include 150001/2 which were mooted early on as transferring to Northern and now are not?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could it possibly include 150001/2 which were mooted early on as transferring to Northern and now are not?

That could be the error a few of us were having with our counts...

The future of the two prototypes has been swinging between Northern and GWR for years now. First they weren't coming North, then they were, now they apparently are staying with GWR. To an extent they'll be a bit of a micro-fleet wherever they end up (AIUI they have been standardised with the production fleet as much as possible but some differences remain) but I'd imagine they'd be less of an issue at Northern.

 

[507021]

75x Class 150 (2x 150/0, 34x 150/1, 23x 150/2 and 16x 150/9).
7x Class 155.
47x Class 156.
53x Class 158.
16x Class 170.
29x Class 319.
16x Class 333.

Total: 243 units.

In the franchise agreement, it says five 319s are/were due to go off lease once enough 331s are in service, so only 29 would be retained.

 

[Greybeard33]

75x Class 150 (2x 150/0, 34x 150/1, 23x 150/2 and 16x 150/9).
7x Class 155.
47x Class 156.
53x Class 158.
16x Class 170.
29x Class 319.
16x Class 333.

Total: 243 units.

In the franchise agreement, it says five 319s are/were due to go off lease once enough 331s are in service, so only 29 would be retained.

The franchise agreement specified 32x 319s, 20 inherited and 12 cascaded, of which 5 were to be returned, so that leaves 27 not 29. 8 of these are being converted to 769s, so a final fleet of 19x 319s + 8x 769s, assuming all the returned units will be 319s not 769s.

The 150 count is complicated by the franchise agreement option to reform 24x 2-car into 16x 3-car, reducing the total unit count by 8. I am unclear what Northern's current intention is regarding reforming.

The franchise agreement specified a total, before reforming, of 80x 150s, comprising 78x 2-car (58 inherited plus 20 cascaded) and 2x cascaded 3-car. 162 individual vehicles versus 168 in your count. With reforming, the franchise agreement unit count could drop to 72, comprising 54x 2-car and 18x 3-car. If your 75 total is correct, there must be 3x 150/2s, not included in your unofficial fleet list, that are yet to arrive. Where will they come from?

For all the other classes, your counts are in line with the franchise agreement. However, the agreement also requires 18x more 2-car refurbished units (170 or equivalent) by the end of 2022.

The franchise agreement therefore specified a total of 238 to 246 refurbished units (depending on how many 150s reformed), increasing to 256 - 264 by 2023.

The Northern Modernising webpage, https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/corporate/transformation, states 98 new trains and 243 refurbished trains. However, the 98 figure is out of date - it does not include the 3 additional 195s ordered last year. The correct new train count is now 101 (25x 195/0, 33x 195/1, 31x 331/0 and 12x 331/1). Therefore I suspect that the 243 figure may also be out of date.

Edit: Cl150 vehicle count corrected and comment added.

 

[Harvey B]

75x Class 150
29x Class 319.
In the franchise agreement, it says five 319s are/were due to go off lease once enough 331s are in service, so only 29 would be retained.

Is that including the 769s as part of the 319s and does this also mean that three Class 150s will leave Northern?

 

[Greybeard33]

Is that including the 769s as part if the 319s and does this also mean that three Class 150s will leave Northern?

The 769s are just Northern's 8x refurbished 319/4s with diesel generators added. Ok they have a new TOPS number, but Northern has never claimed they are new trains.

Your total of 78x 150s assumes that all the 50x 150/1s and 28x 150/2s will remain as 2-car units. @507021 has assumed that 16x 150/1s will be reformed into 3-car 150/9s. This requires 8x 150/2s to be broken up to provide the 16 centre cars, reducing the unit total from 78 to 70. To get up to 75 requires the 2x 3-car 150/0s to be cascaded in from GWR, plus 3 more 150/2s (don't know where from).

 

[507021]

3 more 150/2s (don't know where from).

GWR, 150202/207 and 216.

 

[Greybeard33]

GWR, 150202/207 and 216.

Thanks!

 

[Harvey B]

The 769s are just Northern's 8x refurbished 319/4s with diesel generators added. Ok they have a new TOPS number, but Northern has never claimed they are new trains.

Your total of 78x 150s assumes that all the 50x 150/1s and 28x 150/2s will remain as 2-car units. @507021 has assumed that 16x 150/1s will be reformed into 3-car 150/9s. This requires 8x 150/2s to be broken up to provide the 16 centre cars, reducing the unit total from 78 to 70. To get up to 75 requires the 2x 3-car 150/0s to be cascaded in from GWR, plus 3 more 150/2s (don't know where from).

GWR, 150202/207 and 216.

Thanks

 

[simon7929]

Just seen 156451 at Stockton. Got new seat covers from what I could see from the outside. Just back from an internal refresh.

 

[Tractor37]

150001 & 002 are supposed to be transferring to us also next spring along with the 3 150/2 already quoted previously.

 

[Greybeard33]

150107 and 150109 are operating in tandem today, on a Wigan North Western to Stalybridge/Alderley Edge diagram.

Both still in London Midland colours, but very smart and clean internally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both still in London Midland colours, but very smart and clean internally.

Other than the state the 350/1s got into over time, LM were always big on presentation - so you got them in good nick for starters

 

[Andrew Holland]

150107 and 150109 are operating in tandem today, on a Wigan North Western to Stalybridge/Alderley Edge diagram.

Both still in London Midland colours, but very smart and clean internally.

Nice. However I'm sure Northern apologies profusely for that and assures all customers that they're actively working to return these trains to the normal poor state of repair and cleanliness that its customers have come to know and expect for so long...

 

[323 Class]

I snapped 105 a few weeks ago at Stalybridge, nicely presented and a pity it will end up in the somewhat dull Northern colours.

 

[Eric]

Well my Northern 153 has just detached by the 158 it was pulling out of Bradford Interchange.

Are there plans to refurb the 153s?

 

[323 Class]

Well my Northern 153 has just detached by the 158 it was pulling out of Bradford Interchange.

Are there plans to refurb the 153s?

Read back a few pages, the bit about making them back into 155s. Cost as usual could be the killer.

 

[Greybeard33]

Nice. However I'm sure Northern apologies profusely for that and assures all customers that they're actively working to return these trains to the normal poor state of repair and cleanliness that its customers have come to know and expect for so long...

There were a few double takes from fellow passengers waiting on Bolton Platform 3 when this bright green train pulled in....

 

[Eric]

Read back a few pages, the bit about making them back into 155s. Cost as usual could be the killer.

Why not just couple them up together and run them as pairs? Obviously, refurbish the insides and give them a good clean.

 

[Harvey B]

150001 & 002 are supposed to be transferring to us also next spring along with the 3 150/2 already quoted previously.

Thanks very much

 

[Harvey B]

Well my Northern 153 has just detached by the 158 it was pulling out of Bradford Interchange.

Are there plans to refurb the 153s?

There was something about them getting modded and refurbished a few pages back but nothing since so i'm saying that the OP was giving out false info. The only other thing is, unless they are semi-permanently coupled to other units (or converted back into 155s), I can't see a 153 with PRM mods actually working

 

[LOL The Irony]

Why not just couple them up together and run them as pairs? Obviously, refurbish the insides and give them a good clean.

That's how they will be turned back into 155's.

 

[323 Class]

150105 inside.
Much nicer

 

[superkev]

After a spurt of refreshed and repainted units from Crewe and Doncaster a few weeks ago it seems to have gone quiet. Perhaps a few movements this weekend.
K

 

[themiller]

150105 inside.
Much nicer

That aisle is alright for unencumbered passengers but, if they have luggage,it’s far too narrow! Some would say that they’re only intended for commuters but, when joining ship at Tilbury, it was impossible to get my cases anywhere in the coach away from the door on a 2+3 seating commuter train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

150105 inside.
Much nicer

The LM interior looked nice and they always kept it nice (far nicer than the harsh dark blues and overbright blueish lighting of Northern), but the seating requires one to be a skinny dwarf.

That aside the layout is probably better than a /1 because unlike a /1 they managed not to design it so no seat at all has a decent window view.

 

[AMD]

Why not just couple them up together and run them as pairs? Obviously, refurbish the insides and give them a good clean.

Oh dear, this refurb the 153 idea has raised it's head again. It's not happening.
As it stands the 155s have been refurbished as despite the issues found it was still cheaper than buying 7 more class 195 units. That was a 'standard' refurb however, any ideas of dealing with the 153s are either impractical (keeping as single unit) or horribly expensive (converting back to 155s).
So unless someone stumps up a lot of money they only have a future as an experimental base (eg Scotrail bike units) or the scrapyard.

 

[boeing737229]

The LM interior looked nice and they always kept it nice (far nicer than the harsh dark blues and overbright blueish lighting of Northern), but the seating requires one to be a skinny dwarf.

It'd be nice if just on 105/7/9 they leave the lighting & white panelling as it is, the shades used are FAR easier on the eye!

 

[themiller]

Why not just couple them up together and run them as pairs? Obviously, refurbish the insides and give them a good clean.

Easier and cheaper to abandon the cabs and make them the centre cars in 150 units - no need for a new toilet module and enables greater capacity without disbanding any 150/2 sets.