Northern Unit Refurbishments

[superkev]

Don't forget 150147 is at Wolverton.

I have 150 147 as going to Wolverton on 20th June.
K

 

[superkev]

Not really part of this Northern refurb thread but are there likely to be any spare dmus available in the short or medium term to overcome Northern seemingly constant shortage of units. This can only get worse if the remaining Pacers and 153s leave.
K

 

[4REP]

Not really part of this Northern refurb thread but are there likely to be any spare dmus available in the short or medium term to overcome Northern seemingly constant shortage of units. This can only get worse if the remaining Pacers and 153s leave.
K

In my view there is no shortage northern are losing 102 dmu units replaced by 58+49 dmus new and cascaded stock which equals 117 units plus 8 769s. Alot of people have forgotten this over the years or not have known. Also 43 class 331s with electrification releasing dmu is extra. Northern has gained not lost

 

[superkev]

In my view there is no shortage northern are losing 102 dmu units replaced by 58+49 dmus new and cascaded stock which equals 117 units plus 8 769s. Alot of people have forgotten this over the years or not have known. Also 43 class 331s with electrification releasing dmu is extra. Northern has gained not lost

Yes that's true before the enhanced timetable and Graying reduced the electrification. According to this months Modern railways they have told the government that more dmus will be needed if the enhanced timetable is reintroduced.
K

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes that's true before the enhanced timetable and Graying reduced the electrification. According to this months Modern railways they have told the government that more dmus will be needed if the enhanced timetable is reintroduced.
K

Well they [the government] can't just do nothing. They either need to order diesel trains or put up wires for electric trains. Time will tell.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Yes that's true before the enhanced timetable and Graying reduced the electrification. According to this months Modern railways they have told the government that more dmus will be needed if the enhanced timetable is reintroduced.
K

Well they [the government] can't just do nothing. They either need to order diesel trains or put up wires for electric trains. Time will tell.

In the short term they can lap up the various 153s that will shortly be coming off-lease from other places (EMR, WMT, some of the TfW ones) and use those to help cover the unit shortfall. In the medium to long term they really should be considering more electric options than diesels, or stupid gimmicks like battery or hydrogen trains.

 

[43096]

In my view there is no shortage northern are losing 102 dmu units replaced by 58+49 dmus new and cascaded stock which equals 117 units plus 8 769s. Alot of people have forgotten this over the years or not have known. Also 43 class 331s with electrification releasing dmu is extra. Northern has gained not lost

Agreed. What have they done with all these extra units? This is how the fleet has changed in terms of car numbers, from what I can make out.

	Start	Now	Final	Start to Now Change	Start to Final Change
142	158	0	0	-158	-158
144	56	0	0	-56	-56
150	116	162	162	+46	+46
153	18	18	0	0	-18
156	84	94	94	+10	+10
158	98	114	114	+16	+16
170	0	48	48	+48	+48
185	15	0	0	-15	-15
195	0	140	149	+140	+149
769	0	0	32	0	+32
LHCS	8	0	0	-8	-8
Total Diesel	567	584	607	+23	+46
319	80	60	0	-20	-80
321	12	0	0	-12	-12
322	20	0	0	-20	-20
323	51	51	102	0	+51
331	0	138	141	+138	+141
333	64	64	64	0	0
Total EMU	227	313	307	+86	+80
Total Fleet	794	897	914	+109	+126

 

[Energy]

153 18 18 00 -18

Since when were Northern getting rid of 153s?

 

[jonesy3001]

Is the +51 323s the 17 that are transferring over to northern from WMT?

 

[43096]

Since when were Northern getting rid of 153s?

It was planned from the start of the (Arriva) franchise for them to go. As none have had PRM mods, it's a reasonable assumption to say that still stands.

 

[43096]

Is the +51 323s the 17 that are transferring over to northern from WMT?

Yes, that's correct.

 

[Energy]

It was planned from the start of the (Arriva) franchise for them to go. As none have had PRM mods, it's a reasonable assumption to say that still stands.

Well they have a dispensation till the end of this year

 

[jonesy3001]

Yes, that's correct.

Could get the other 9 if they don't find an home for them.

 

[jonesy3001]

Well they have a dispensation till the end of this year

Due to the 319s forever breaking down they decided to keep the 323s, PRM and refresh them into the new colours and get the rest from WMT and get rid of the 319 and the 323s are popular with the drivers and a couple of minutes slower then the 331s.

 

[Energy]

Due to the 319s forever breaking down they decided to keep the 323s, PRM and refresh them into the new colours and get the rest from WMT and get rid of the 319 and the 323s are popular with the drivers and a couple of minutes slower then the 331s.

I was talking about the 153s, not the 323s also originally Porterbrook didn't want to lease the 323s to Northern and expected WMT (or LM at the time) to take them on however WMT decided to get new Aventras instead to replace the 323s so Porterbrook decided to that the 323s could go to Northern, slightly offtopic but doesn't need its own thread.

 

[43096]

Well they have a dispensation till the end of this year

But if they were keeping them long term they would be going through for PRM and refurb by now, would they not?

 

[Energy]

But if they were keeping them long term they would be going through for PRM and refurb by now, would they not?

This was pre government ownership, I think they may stay for now as capacity boosters for the rest of the sprinters, it isn't going to be popular for the government to decide to get rid of them especially as they had to temporarily bring back a few pacers recently, anyway getting a little offtopic now...

 

[43096]

This was pre government ownership, I think they may stay for now as capacity boosters for the rest of the sprinters, it isn't going to be popular for the government to decide to get rid of them especially as they had to temporarily bring back a few pacers recently, anyway getting a little offtopic now...

It would be rather embarrassing for the Government to have ask themselves for a further PRM dispensation though.

 

[4REP]

Agreed. What have they done with all these extra units? This is how the fleet has changed in terms of car numbers, from what I can make out.

	Start	Now	Final	Start to Now Change	Start to Final Change
142	158	0	0	-158	-158
144	56	0	0	-56	-56
150	116	156	156	+40	+40
153	18	18	0	0	-18
156	84	94	94	+10	+10
158	98	114	114	+16	+16
170	0	48	48	+48	+48
185	15	0	0	-15	-15
195	0	140	149	+140	+149
769	0	0	32	0	+32
LHCS	8	0	0	-8	-8
Total Diesel	567	584	607	+17	+40
319	80	60	0	-20	-80
321	12	0	0	-12	-12
322	20	0	0	-20	-20
323	51	51	102	0	+51
331	0	138	141	+138	+141
333	64	64	64	0	0
Total EMU	227	313	307	+86	+80
Total Fleet	794	897	914	+103	+120

Just to say did you also include the next batch of 150s ×3 from GWR? that's extra on top of the 49 plus the 150/0 ×2
Also I assume to an answer to your first question that maybe 10-20 units are away for mods/refurb etc etc. But still does not fully account for what they have done with these extra units.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In the short term they can lap up the various 153s that will shortly be coming off-lease from other places (EMR, WMT, some of the TfW ones) and use those to help cover the unit shortfall. In the medium to long term they really should be considering more electric options than diesels, or stupid gimmicks like battery or hydrogen trains.

No good having electric units if there's no wires for them to use. Plenty of places where a new DMU could work until it falls apart and still not be displaced by electrics.

 

[4REP]

Yes that's true before the enhanced timetable and Graying reduced the electrification. According to this months Modern railways they have told the government that more dmus will be needed if the enhanced timetable is reintroduced.
K

If I remember there were an agreement that an extra 18 dmus were moving to the region under the arriva franchise if that's still going ahead?

 

[43096]

Just to say did you also include the next batch of 150s ×3 from GWR? that's extra on top of the 49 plus the 150/0 ×2
Also I assume to an answer to your first question that maybe 10-20 units are away for mods/refurb etc etc. But still does not fully account for what they have done with these extra units.

No - excluded the 3 x 150s as they are not now coming. Actually - you've made me look again. I missed out the 150/0s. Will amend...

 

[Dspatula]

The actual 195 order looks like more or less a one for one 142/144 replacement; 3303.038m of 14X for 3343.8m of 195, so there was never really any capacity improvement from that alone and not all the 2 car 195s are in service yet anyway. A good 16 150s have been lost cover for a lack or wires and following delays to the 769s which leaves around 33 units to run all the new services and considering Man Airport to Barrow/Windermere and Liverpool alone take about 15 units to run and that accounts for all but one of the 170s the extra units soon dry up.

There’s another 15 150 carriages to come and 9 195 carriages, the 9 195 carriages are already gone to cover a lack of wires and the 15 150 carriages won’t be enough to cover the loss of the 153s if the 769s don’t make an appearance. The only reasonable solution I can see is taking on East Midlands 24 156s when they’re freed, I assume at some point next year, seems to be the best short term option, no training require can used pretty much anywhere.

 

[DBS92042]

150147 on the below this morning. Headcode 5J81

Realtime Trains - FRGT 0808 Wolverton Centre Sidings to Newton Heath T.M.D.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[jonesy3001]

150147 on the below this morning. Unsure of the headcode

Realtime Trains - FRGT 0808 Wolverton Centre Sidings to Newton Heath T.M.D.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Wonder if 147 is picking up another unit from Crewe them going to newton heath

 

[superkev]

I have 150 147 as going to Wolverton on 20th June.
K

All todays other move seem centred on Newton heath.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Newton Heath T.M.D. between 0600 and 2000 on 11/07/2020

Train information at Newton Heath T.M.D. between 0600 and 2000 on 11/07/2020. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

K

 

[mjn]

150150 coming back from Crewe to Newton Heath under ROG 5B31

 

[superkev]

150150 coming back from Crewe to Newton Heath under ROG 5B31

I have 150150 as not refurbished so prob cet tank fitmen as its only been there 2 weeks.
K

 

[Jamesrob637]

Donny to Newton Heath cancelled

Crewe to Newton Heath is running.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 13/07 then CAN

Realtime Trains - 599A 1154 Heaton T&R.S.M.D. to Eastleigh Trsmd

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

STP 14/07

Realtime Trains - 548B 0945 Wolverton Centre Sidings to Newton Heath T.M.D.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 569B 1449 Newton Heath T.M.D. to Wolverton Centre Sidings

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk