Northern want more female train drivers

Status
Not open for further replies.

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
Northern are simply trying to encourage more females to apply for a job which is over represented by males - probably (as already said) because there are such a low number of female applicants.

At the end of the day, everyone will still have to pass the assessments/interviews regardless of gender. At the FCC assessment day I went to there was one female out of the 46 of us there. Sort of highlights Northern's point really...

Just because they're encouraging female applicants doesn't mean they're discriminating based on gender! :lol:

To be perfectly honest, assuming the job is advertised in an environment which is equally accessible to both men and women, which I presume most TOCs' websites are, if hardly any women go for it then that would perhaps tend to indicate that women aren't as interested in the job as men. If I saw an ad for a job that interested me, particularly with a salary in region of 40k plus, I would go for it, regardless. This would apply even moreso if I was a woman, as the new age of equality in the workplace is hardly a secret.

If a job is fairly advertised and made available to all, then it is up to the individuals to apply for it. Why do management endlessly insist on fretting over the demographics when they get the application forms back? If there aren't any women, or people from a certain background, or people called George, or people with blonde hair, or whatever, then that is because they didn't apply. They could have done, but they didn't. So what?! Move on, and recruit from within the candidates that you have. The fact that it is felt necessary to try and manipulate who applies next time around suggests that there is discrimination going on, however much they might try and dress it up as being 'fair'. I would also have to acknowledge an earlier point that it is incredibly rare to find any organisation trying to encourage male applicants into a female-dominated job role, which is perhaps something that society should be looking at in light of the tireless efforts to get women into typically male workplaces - or is equality in truth only a one way street?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Woolsty

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2012
Messages
32
Example?


Firearms trainer, refused to pass a female because she failed to reach the required standard on assesment, he was eventually removed from post and the female officer was passed.
I have known officers from ethnic minorities be recruited despite them struggling with the English language. It happens.
Now im sure Northern would want more females to fill a diversity quota, you would just hope that its on ability, but on occasions it wont be.
It happens in every occupation.
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,750
Location
Essex
I have known officers from ethnic minorities be recruited despite them struggling with the English language. It happens.
Now im sure Northern would want more females to fill a diversity quota, you would just hope that its on ability, but on occasions it wont be.
It happens in every occupation.
Ironic.
 

Temple Meads

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2010
Messages
2,224
Location
Devon
It is interesting that encouraging women to apply for a job is discriminatory in some peoples minds. Presumably because these people are frightened that a competent woman will be better than they are!

I didn't mean anything like that, my apologies if it came across as so, I'm sure a lot of women (and men) could drive a train better than I can (particularly if my BVE performance is anything like the job in real life :lol:), I don't mind what gender drivers are, as long they are the safest, smoothest, yet punctual candidates for the job, and I feel that we need to select drivers on the latter attributes, and not on their gender.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
18,455
Location
0035
I am not aware of any public organisation with paid employees with a ''quota'' and I think any such organisation would be opening itself up to legal action. Therefore I cannot believe that any company operates such a system. Companies may want their organisation to accurately reflect the people they serve, but that is different from rejecting white male applicants even when they are better.
 

Woolsty

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2012
Messages
32
I think you will find that many companies are under pressure to recruit from minorities ( hence thats why they place adverts encouraging the same because they are under represented, ) to avoid being accused of racism, sexism etc.
The height restriction was removed from the Police to encourage ethnic minorities.
They certainly do have a quota to fill. A great sigh of relief went out when the police were allowed to count recruits from the R of I as minorities.
next you will be telling me that MPs dont fiddle expenses.
 

TDK

Established Member
Joined
19 Apr 2008
Messages
4,126
Location
Wrexham
I think you will find that many companies are under pressure to recruit from minorities ( hence thats why they place adverts encouraging the same because they are under represented, ) to avoid being accused of racism, sexism etc.
The height restriction was removed from the Police to encourage ethnic minorities.
They certainly do have a quota to fill. A great sigh of relief went out when the police were allowed to count recruits from the R of I as minorities.
next you will be telling me that MPs dont fiddle expenses.

Companies can direct their vacancies at anyone but you will fins that the people they are directing their interst in are not necessarily interested in the roles advertised. Sureley if there is a minority of a certain group of people be it women, afro carribean, asian or NI a percentage of those people seeking work in that area shoud surfice for the company to not be worried about any discrimination so for instance in town B there are 1000 people out of that 1000 800 of them are lets say white british, 100 are asian and 100 afro carribean sureley if the applications rendered 10% asian and 10% afro carribean and 80% white british this is a good reflection on the population?
 

Woolsty

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2012
Messages
32
Companies can direct their vacancies at anyone but you will fins that the people they are directing their interst in are not necessarily interested in the roles advertised. Sureley if there is a minority of a certain group of people be it women, afro carribean, asian or NI a percentage of those people seeking work in that area shoud surfice for the company to not be worried about any discrimination so for instance in town B there are 1000 people out of that 1000 800 of them are lets say white british, 100 are asian and 100 afro carribean sureley if the applications rendered 10% asian and 10% afro carribean and 80% white british this is a good reflection on the population?

What you will find is they are not interested because they feel barred in someway, women may not want to be train drivers because its a male dominated role and that the industry in general is likewise male dominated. Ethnic minorities were always suspicous of the Police in there own country and they felt the same way about the UK Police, they also felt it was rife with racism. Its not about whether they apply its finding out why not as well.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
I am not aware of any public organisation with paid employees with a ''quota'' and I think any such organisation would be opening itself up to legal action. Therefore I cannot believe that any company operates such a system. Companies may want their organisation to accurately reflect the people they serve, but that is different from rejecting white male applicants even when they are better.

I agree.

I think you will find that many companies are under pressure to recruit from minorities ( hence thats why they place adverts encouraging the same because they are under represented, ) to avoid being accused of racism, sexism etc.
The height restriction was removed from the Police to encourage ethnic minorities.
They certainly do have a quota to fill. A great sigh of relief went out when the police were allowed to count recruits from the R of I as minorities.
next you will be telling me that MPs dont fiddle expenses.

There have been no 'quotas' in any place that I have worked. Of course, ther emay be a perception that ther eis a quota because of the way monitoring information on applicants is collected, but that is all that there is.

Certainly, in my current employment, details on gender, ethnicity etc are not seen by recruiting managers until after the shortlisting stage. Interview notes and assessments are also vetted to ensure that they are objective, and not discriminatory in anyway, as that would be illegal.

At the same time, employers will try and encourage applications from sections of the community that are under represented. Maybe that is why there is a feeling that there are quotas that have to be met?

What you will find is they are not interested because they feel barred in someway, women may not want to be train drivers because its a male dominated role and that the industry in general is likewise male dominated. Ethnic minorities were always suspicous of the Police in there own country and they felt the same way about the UK Police, they also felt it was rife with racism. Its not about whether they apply its finding out why not as well.

Indeed, which is why Northern have tried to use a female views of the job in order to reassure other women that they should not feel barred. Sadly, it is a long process to try and break down the traditional stereotypes that are associated with particular roles.
 

LCC106

Member
Joined
16 Nov 2011
Messages
908
I'm a girl and I worked my backside off to pass the assessment centres for the role of trainee driver. There were 3 women at my assessment centre and I was the only one to pass. (The other 2 went home after the reaction test and 1 was internal). I think that clearly demonstrates that practise, practise, practise and ability, not gender, was what got me through.

I was told by a conductor at my TOC "No disrespect but if you're a woman you're automatically guaranteed an interview." I find that rather insulting as both a female and a former HR professional. I've since learned that this conductor has a chip on his shoulder and bad attitude, hence the fact he never passes the interview stage.

However, having worked in HR, I do wonder whether positive action puts people off applying. For instance, if I saw an advert stating that applications were particularly welcome from those with a disability or from particular ethnic minorities I probably wouldn't apply, as I'd assume they weren't looking for an able bodied white female...

Anyway, that's my twopenneth. Been a few weeks since I've been on the forum and it may be a few more before I'm back but an interesting debate nonetheless.
 

TDK

Established Member
Joined
19 Apr 2008
Messages
4,126
Location
Wrexham
I was told by a conductor at my TOC "No disrespect but if you're a woman you're automatically guaranteed an interview." I find that rather insulting as both a female and a former HR professional. I've since learned that this conductor has a chip on his shoulder and bad attitude, hence the fact he never passes the interview stage.

You are right to think that is insulting - part of this is correct, if you have or are a guard you will score very high on the points system of the sifting whether or not you are male of female due to the nature of the role as a guard and the criteria of the questions so I would say most guards unless they have a poor attendance record or safety of the line incidents have a much better chance of going through to the final assessment stages - I have worked with female drivers and managed them in the past and to be honest there is not any difference between women driver and men drivers except of the obvious fact that there are many more men than women driving trains.

As I have quoted before generally if you are sifting applications the name and other details are removed from the application so you wouldn't know the gender of the applicant, you can sometimes tell by the answers given but any professional manager would put through anyone who is competent and would suit the role be it a man or a woman. I think the guard who told you this was either envious of you or trying to put you off so they could possibly go for the job themselves.
 

LCC106

Member
Joined
16 Nov 2011
Messages
908
I know what you mean about being able to work gender out from things people say in their applications. You'll know as well as I that despite the fact age discrimination is a no-no, it's easy to work it out based on GCSEs. CSEs or O-Levels - as much as how far back the job history goes. We'll always live in an imperfect world, but it's good to know we sing from the same hymn sheet in terms of professional approach. Just wish the rest of the world worked that way too!
 

JENNY17

Member
Joined
10 May 2012
Messages
6
I have just applied last week for Northern Rail Liverpool.

I certainly wouldnt expect any prefrence over men though. If i am unable to do the job, then its not the job for me. Even though i think i am perfectly suited to it.

I am just hoping to get called for assessment, for which i am already practicing for. practice practice practice will hopefully put me in good stead. Any advice or pointing in direction for help would be much appreciated.

Thanks
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
I am just hoping to get called for assessment, for which i am already practicing for. practice practice practice will hopefully put me in good stead. Any advice or pointing in direction for help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

There is a Northern thread in the Jobs and Careers section which had info on some of the recent vacancies, interviews etc. Lots of good info there.
 

Class_317

Member
Joined
5 Apr 2012
Messages
35
Interesting debate. Before I give my point I must point out that I am male.

There is a lot of ill-feeling in this thread. From a moral standpoint it doesn't matter whether you are male/female black/white/purple/green or luminous yellow... If you can do the job then you should be assessed/ given the job if you are competent. I really can't see why a TOC asking for more females to apply is such a trajedy? If you have applied and been turned down or ignored it is your own fault as you did not meet the criteria required for an assessment or didn't do well enough. Life deals us many blows... We should be mature to cope with them.

On a political view... Equal opportunities are what make me proud to be british. Where would we be if sexist/racist views ruled our land?

Good luck to all that apply. Our world is changing and we should embrace that.
 

LCC106

Member
Joined
16 Nov 2011
Messages
908
Well said Jennie and Class_317. Best of luck to all those who apply, work hard and make it - however long it takes - you deserve it!
 

JENNY17

Member
Joined
10 May 2012
Messages
6
Thanks LCC106, i have been practicing ever since i sent my application in. If i dont get in this time, am just going to keep trying now until i do.

Hoping i do well this time though obviously:)
 

Class_317

Member
Joined
5 Apr 2012
Messages
35
Thanks LCC106, i have been practicing ever since i sent my application in. If i dont get in this time, am just going to keep trying now until i do.

Hoping i do well this time though obviously:)

Best of luck Jenny17. The application stage is the biggest hurdle, if you stay prepared when you finally get an assessment you should do very well. Good luck!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top