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Northern withdraws some CAF trains due to yaw bracket failures

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TheGarner

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I clocked 331009 (14/04) at Dinting on the Man Picc-Glossop.
From the video still, you can see white marks on the soleplate where various structure is attached. Is this an indicator that examination has been carried out?

I think that may be part of inspections they do - I have a photo from Feb 2020 and similar parts of the train have been cleaned to show numbers or whatever it is they display. I mean it does show that they are checking certain areas for sure though but I don't think it's unique to this specific problem.
 
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skyhigh

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I think that may be part of inspections they do - I have a photo from Feb 2020 and similar parts of the train have been cleaned to show numbers or whatever it is they display. I mean it does show that they are checking certain areas for sure though but I don't think it's unique to this specific problem.
It is new. Previously the dirt was only wiped off so you could read the lettering there.
 

DustyBin

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I’m stood looking at 195 127 now and the mounting points have all been wiped clean which suggests they’re being inspected regularly, and also that it is indeed the T-slots that are failing. @millemille is quite right, the blocks/mounting plates are very short!
 

superkev

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I’m stood looking at 195 127 now and the mounting points have all been wiped clean which suggests they’re being inspected regularly, and also that it is indeed the T-slots that are failing. @millemille is quite right, the blocks/mounting plates are very short!
Note that not only the yaw bracket mountings have been cleaned for inspection but also the adjacent mounting for the vertical damper etc.
K
 

david l

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Some random comments/observations
Since the announcement at Easter(ish), from records kept, 9 195/0, 14 195/1, 8 331/0 and 1 331/1 have not worked at all on service trains- somewhat more than the 22 originally stopped alluded to - although with a lower tt in use, perhaps some are not needed.
On the west side from observations all the Liverpool/Wigan/Blackpools are being covered by 319's (of which 10 in use today). Wigan/Leeds & Blackpool/Leeds are being covered by a variety of single/double 150's, 2 car 158's and the occasional 156. Manchester-Windermere/Barrow are still 3 car 195/1, but some 195/0 substitution. This week there are no more than 6 pairs of 331/0's out (no singles) - previously 13 doubles were diagrammed.
Several units are at Blackpool N & some moved (recently) to Huddersfield (195012/3/25, 195103 over past couple of days)
Apparently Northern were advising that they could cope until the new tt on 17/5, but with the increase in services from that date it could get interesting, unless there is a very quick fix.
 

Adam0984

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Some random comments/observations
Since the announcement at Easter(ish), from records kept, 9 195/0, 14 195/1, 8 331/0 and 1 331/1 have not worked at all on service trains- somewhat more than the 22 originally stopped alluded to - although with a lower tt in use, perhaps some are not needed.
On the west side from observations all the Liverpool/Wigan/Blackpools are being covered by 319's (of which 10 in use today). Wigan/Leeds & Blackpool/Leeds are being covered by a variety of single/double 150's, 2 car 158's and the occasional 156. Manchester-Windermere/Barrow are still 3 car 195/1, but some 195/0 substitution. This week there are no more than 6 pairs of 331/0's out (no singles) - previously 13 doubles were diagrammed.
Several units are at Blackpool N & some moved (recently) to Huddersfield (195012/3/25, 195103 over past couple of days)
Apparently Northern were advising that they could cope until the new tt on 17/5, but with the increase in services from that date it could get interesting, unless there is a very quick fix.
I've heard it's about a week per unit once they get the equipment to fix the mountings
 

edwin_m

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I've heard it's about a week per unit once they get the equipment to fix the mountings
Assuming it's a fatigue failure they tend to occur at a fairly consistent number of stress cycles so it's quite likely more will fail soon. If they can only fix one at a time then I'd guess that for some time yet, they will be failing faster than they can be fixed.
 

skyhigh

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Some random comments/observations
Since the announcement at Easter(ish), from records kept, 9 195/0, 14 195/1, 8 331/0 and 1 331/1 have not worked at all on service trains- somewhat more than the 22 originally stopped alluded to - although with a lower tt in use, perhaps some are not needed.
If you're getting the unit numbers from RTT, there's a few units that don't seem to show up but are definitely in service. Not 100% sure on the 195 side of things, but I know that 7x331/0s are affected and no 331/1s. Worth remembering that there are 195s on training duties too that don't show up on RTT. I think the figure of 22 units seems accurate to me.
 

jonnyfan

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The direct affect of the withdrawal of some of the CAF units will now be some service reductions in the May 2021 timetable compared to what has already been loaded onto online systems

 

Watershed

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The direct affect of the withdrawal of some of the CAF units will now be some service reductions in the May 2021 timetable compared to what has already been loaded onto online systems

I wonder if that is the whole story behind the reductions.
 
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northernchris

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Went past Holbeck today and noticed 195015 and 195132 stabled on one of the lines just past the depot presumably out of action until a fix is found.
 

js1000

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The direct affect of the withdrawal of some of the CAF units will now be some service reductions in the May 2021 timetable compared to what has already been loaded onto online systems

What a mess. If 22 units are out of action due to what seems to be a flaw, then surely the other 80 will need to be repaired in the not too distant future. If these units were built was 10 years ago and this issue arose it could be viewed as wear and tear but these were built less than 2 years ago. Imagine Eversholt and CAF are nervous about other defects arising in the coming years.
 

Mag_seven

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A request that we try to confine discussion in this thread to the actual withdrawal of the CAF units.

A speculative thread regarding possible short term replacements for the withdrawn units can be found here

Thanks
 

Nogoohwell

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Would it make sense for Northern to remove and reform the units which are out of action? Surely not all carriages on a unit are affected, a bit of cut and shut and they could get a few of those back in service!
 

HSP 2

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Would it make sense for Northern to remove and reform the units which are out of action? Surely not all carriages on a unit are affected, a bit of cut and shut and they could get a few of those back in service!

I don't think it that simple, as all of the coaches that make up a unit will normally have had very much the same stresses put on them. So until a fix is found it would be better to keep them together, once the fix is found. I think that we will see a full unit getting pulled out of service for the fix, starting with the ones that are showing the most fatigue / most mileage.
 

D6130

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Would it make sense for Northern to remove and reform the units which are out of action? Surely not all carriages on a unit are affected, a bit of cut and shut and they could get a few of those back in service!
If they're anything like the 333s, with the bar couplings and all the air, electrical and electronic connections it would take the best part of a day to uncouple two vehicles and a similar amount of time to put them back together again. Then you would have to multiply that for three vehicles. By the time you had finished with all that faffing about, the yaw damper bracket could have been repaired.
 

skyhigh

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If they're anything like the 333s, with the bar couplings and all the air, electrical and electronic connections it would take the best part of a day to uncouple two vehicles and a similar amount of time to put them back together again. Then you would have to multiply that for three vehicles. By the time you had finished with all that faffing about, the yaw damper bracket could have been repaired.
Except there's currently no fix, so it couldn't have been...
 

Adam0984

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I've heard that there is a machine to sort it and it will be coming to northern and each unit will take a week to sort
 

Llama

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It'll have to be a machine that can weld aluminium, provide an engineering fix, test and repaint if there is...
 

skyhigh

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I've heard that there is a machine to sort it and it will be coming to northern and each unit will take a week to sort
Can't say I've heard that. Is it to repair to as-new, or modify to solve the issue?
 

xtpe

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Also the train management system would not doubt have a massive hissy fit and through up all sorts of imagined faults!
 

hwl

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Would it make sense for Northern to remove and reform the units which are out of action? Surely not all carriages on a unit are affected, a bit of cut and shut and they could get a few of those back in service!
Even if a vehicle is currently affected it may not be that far off starting to fail and will need fixing to prevent failure in the future as well.

I've heard that there is a machine to sort it and it will be coming to northern and each unit will take a week to sort
A large AC TIG welder?
 

edwin_m

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Can't say I've heard that. Is it to repair to as-new, or modify to solve the issue?
Depends whether it's caused by the designers not allowing for the stresses and fatigue cycles actually encountered, or a manufacturing issue such as poor welding.
 

172007

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Depends whether it's caused by the designers not allowing for the stresses and fatigue cycles actually encountered, or a manufacturing issue such as poor welding.
Wonder whether all this comes from the modifications to the coupling boxes. They where modified as there where not of enough size to accommodate the movement of the inner vehicle couplers around tight track as i understand.

If this was the case then the bogies may be moving a lot more and possibly outside the envelope envisaged originally by the designers of the yaw damper bracket and when the mod for the coupler box was done no thought was given to what else may be struggling with tight curves. Just a thought, not an engineer or rolling stock technician.
 

tpjm

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Mk5/a stock is apparently not affected as the bogie design is different.

Class 397s have all been checked (and continue to be checked every 24-48 hours) for signs of cracks and nothing has been identified.
 
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