'Northern worker' ignorant to specially adapted pushchair for disabled child

[Mogster]

The Alderley Edge to Wigan was short terminated, I was on it. I didn’t notice them getting off, they may have though.

 

[js1000]

What is it with guard/platform staff and access ramps?

It's a constantly recurring problem for both TOCs and Network Rail. Staff need to be better trained.

 

[muz379]

couldn’t understand why they were requesting the ramp, the push chair was just a large pram and could easilly be lifted on. A passenger assisted one of the parents in lifting the pram with the child off the train at Wigan.

Its not really for the guard or platform staff to decide that it is just a large pram though . Depending on the condition the child suffers from even a minor bump during manual handling of the type that was instead employed could cause significant pain or discomfort for the child . Not exactly a dignified way to treat a passenger .

 

[Narom]

I couldn’t understand why they were requesting the ramp, the push chair was just a large pram and could easilly be lifted on

How heavy is it? How heavy is the child? Are the carers physically fit enough? Not know the answers? Get the ramp, simple.

Its like telling an amputee "well it looks like a real leg".

 

[jh64]

https://www.uksmobility.co.uk/paediatrics/pushchairs/special-tomato-eio-pushchair

The chair in question starts at over £500. It's entirely reasonable to want to play it safe with a ramp if you ask me, it's not at all easy to replace something like that if it isn't handled properly.

 

[theironroad]

Genuine question here, so don't shoot me down.

There seems to be a opinion that if someone asks for the ramp it should be provided in any situation.

So if every person using a pram requests a ramp and people using those shopping baskets on wheels, heavy luggage with wheels and people who don't want to climb the step onto the train, should they all be provided with a ramp on request with no questions asked by staff.

Should tocs be required to provide these facilities at all stations?

 

[Intermodal]

Genuine question here, so don't shoot me down.

There seems to be a opinion that if someone asks for the ramp it should be provided in any situation.

So if every person using a pram requests a ramp and people using those shopping baskets on wheels, heavy luggage with wheels and people who don't want to climb the step onto the train, should they all be provided with a ramp on request with no questions asked by staff.

Should tocs be required to provide these facilities at all stations?

Guards/staff can provide ramps to any passenger who requests one in order to make reasonable adjustments for their level of ability.

The issue is that no guard or member of staff is trained in assessing someone's level of ability and what that means they can and cannot do. Short of a drunk man on a Saturday night I cannot see myself refusing to put a ramp down when asked in many situations. You open yourself up to a can of worms in terms of liability - you could be seen to be discriminating against a hidden disability or you could be seen to be making unfair and unreasonable judgements about a person.

Sure, if someone is clearly taking the piss I would happily refuse to help them with a ramp, but if I had any doubt whatsoever I would put a ramp down.

 

[richw]

I never attempted to use a train, but my daughter has just spent 6 weeks in an adapted disabled buggy following surgery, and sadly the ignorance in certain places to it being a disability aid rather than a buggy has been shocking. She had both legs in a bright pink cast to give away it wasn’t just a buggy.
It was huge and heavy.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I never attempted to use a train, but my daughter has just spent 6 weeks in an adapted disabled buggy following surgery, and sadly the ignorance in certain places to it being a disability aid rather than a buggy has been shocking. She had both legs in a bright pink cast to give away it wasn’t just a buggy.
It was huge and heavy.

If, just out of interest, you had used the train & asked for a ramp, but they said “I can help you lift it on instead” would you have?

 

[Narom]

If, just out of interest, you had used the train & asked for a ramp, but they said “I can help you lift it on instead” would you have?

As a carer I would, if it were safe to do so obviously. It's hard enough at some platforms with huge drops from trains. Salford has that and could be tricky and the person in the train could end up bending awkwardly to compensate.

One of the most horrible experiences you can have when out as a carer is when you ask for help and you get a refusal, just compounds a hard situation needlessly. However a reasonable alternative solution wouldn't even raise an eyebrow and would certainly be appreciated.

 

[pemma]

Genuine question here, so don't shoot me down.

There seems to be a opinion that if someone asks for the ramp it should be provided in any situation.

So if every person using a pram requests a ramp and people using those shopping baskets on wheels, heavy luggage with wheels and people who don't want to climb the step onto the train, should they all be provided with a ramp on request with no questions asked by staff.

Should tocs be required to provide these facilities at all stations?

In the case of the story in the original post the specially adapted buggy had a blue label on it saying "Treat me like a wheelchair."

At Northwich station there's a very low platform with a 'Harrington Hump', prior to the hump being installed there were occasions when the guard or station staff got out the ramp if someone would have struggled to board/alight otherwise.

Surely with luggage the best thing to do if you're struggling with luggage or a shopping trolley is to ask a member of staff to lift it on to the train for you opposed to ask them to put down the ramp.

 

[pemma]

One of the most horrible experiences you can have when out as a carer is when you ask for help and you get a refusal, just compounds a hard situation needlessly. However a reasonable alternative solution wouldn't even raise an eyebrow and would certainly be appreciated.

Sometimes disabled people can welcome assistance less than non-disabled people e.g. hold open a door for someone who's carrying a shopping bag in both arms would be welcomed but holding it open for someone with a physical disability might not be if they feel they are capable of doing it themselves.

 

[muz379]

Genuine question here, so don't shoot me down.

There seems to be a opinion that if someone asks for the ramp it should be provided in any situation.

So if every person using a pram requests a ramp and people using those shopping baskets on wheels, heavy luggage with wheels and people who don't want to climb the step onto the train, should they all be provided with a ramp on request with no questions asked by staff.

Should tocs be required to provide these facilities at all stations?

With heavy luggage on wheels and shopping baskets I would offer to lift the luggage onto the train for the passenger rather than provide the ramp and I have never had a situation when someone has instead requested the ramp but thinking about it if someone insisted on loading their own luggage I would get the ramp . Ive had situations when I have offered to get the ramp for someone struggling to climb onto the train and they have said no .

We dont get trained to recognise when someone just doesn't want to climb the step and when someone has a genuine hidden disability that would hinder them climbing the step so from a personal point of view if it was requested in those circumstances I would provide the ramp .

It is a fair question you ask and I can see the potential for abuse but the alternative is to not provide assistance when requested and risk genuinely denying someone reasonable adjustment because in my view they dont look disabled .

 

[theironroad]

Guards/staff can provide ramps to any passenger who requests one in order to make reasonable adjustments for their level of ability.

The issue is that no guard or member of staff is trained in assessing someone's level of ability and what that means they can and cannot do. Short of a drunk man on a Saturday night I cannot see myself refusing to put a ramp down when asked in many situations. You open yourself up to a can of worms in terms of liability - you could be seen to be discriminating against a hidden disability or you could be seen to be making unfair and unreasonable judgements about a person.

Sure, if someone is clearly taking the piss I would happily refuse to help them with a ramp, but if I had any doubt whatsoever I would put a ramp down.

With heavy luggage on wheels and shopping baskets I would offer to lift the luggage onto the train for the passenger rather than provide the ramp and I have never had a situation when someone has instead requested the ramp but thinking about it if someone insisted on loading their own luggage I would get the ramp . Ive had situations when I have offered to get the ramp for someone struggling to climb onto the train and they have said no .

We dont get trained to recognise when someone just doesn't want to climb the step and when someone has a genuine hidden disability that would hinder them climbing the step so from a personal point of view if it was requested in those circumstances I would provide the ramp .

It is a fair question you ask and I can see the potential for abuse but the alternative is to not provide assistance when requested and risk genuinely denying someone reasonable adjustment because in my view they dont look disabled .

Both sound like good approaches.

As a carer I would, if it were safe to do so obviously. It's hard enough at some platforms with huge drops from trains. Salford has that and could be tricky and the person in the train could end up bending awkwardly to compensate.

One of the most horrible experiences you can have when out as a carer is when you ask for help and you get a refusal, just compounds a hard situation needlessly. However a reasonable alternative solution wouldn't even raise an eyebrow and would certainly be appreciated.

It sounds like you've had some bad experiences and the original articke in this thread certainly doesn't help the railways reputation.

However bad this incident, I know for sure that every day on the railway hundreds of prams, wheelchairs and bags are helped on and off trains. Sometimes that's through pre-planned assistance, sometimes the guard in the train providing a ramp or help, sometimes station based staff doing the same and then hundreds of incidents network wide of staff and members of the public giving that extra helping hand to another human being to make their life just then a wee bit easier.

 

[davmet]

Sometimes disabled people can welcome assistance less than non-disabled people e.g. hold open a door for someone who's carrying a shopping bag in both arms would be welcomed but holding it open for someone with a physical disability might not be if they feel they are capable of doing it themselves.

I have to walk with a stick while I don't expect any help I do express my gratitude when get it

 

[Bletchleyite]

How heavy is it? How heavy is the child? Are the carers physically fit enough? Not know the answers? Get the ramp, simple.

Its like telling an amputee "well it looks like a real leg".

In my experience most disabled people like to retain as much independence and ability as they can, and as such will only ask for assistance when they actually need it. Therefore if someone is asking for it, it is a good indication that they probably need it.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I have to walk with a stick while I don't expect any help I do express my gratitude when get it

When I was 16, I got run over (I’m fine now, 30 odd years later!) after a few months on crutches I got it down to a few weeks with a stick. An old man helped me off a bus once, I think he knew what it was like trying to get off a bus with a non-fully functioning leg! No step-free buses in those days. He meant well, it was appreciated, but it made me chuckle.

 

[philthetube]

When I was on crutches my problem was persuading people I didn't want help, particularly seats, If I sat down it was agony to stand and I much preferred to remain standing, I am not complaining about people doing the right thing though.

 

[richw]

If, just out of interest, you had used the train & asked for a ramp, but they said “I can help you lift it on instead” would you have?

Probably as long as the staff felt safe to do so. I’d have shown them where they could and couldn’t grip it. My daughter was in a hip spica which almost doubled her body weight and the buggy was quite heavy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably as long as the staff felt safe to do so. I’d have shown them where they could and couldn’t grip it. My daughter was in a hip spica which almost doubled her body weight and the buggy was quite heavy.

I have carried a "large pushchair" of the kind used for wheelchair-bound children who are bigger than the sort of kid who would normally be in a pram (but aren't yet ready for a regular manual wheelchair) up a flight of stairs (with occupant) for a friend. It was not easy, and is the kind of manual lifting I would assume anyone in a work setting would be banned from doing for their own safety, particularly as there is a correct way of boarding such a wheelchair onto the train, namely the ramp.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was this the chap who had form for previously harassing the staff and demanding access to trains he knew full well they were barred from helping him to leave at his stop for safety reasons (IE Guide Bridge station where class 142s were barred from having the wheelchair ramps deployed)

1. Why is this?

2. I think a Court would determine, as Northern have a selection of DMUs, that it would be a "reasonable adjustment" to deploy a Class 150 on a service where assistance had been requested in advance at that station as the very minimum. That Northern are too incompetent to properly diagram their DMUs (and keep them on diagram) is not the Court's problem nor should it be that of the wheelchair user.

 

[LowLevel]

1. Why is this?

2. I think a Court would determine, as Northern have a selection of DMUs, that it would be a "reasonable adjustment" to deploy a Class 150 on a service where assistance had been requested in advance at that station as the very minimum. That Northern are too incompetent to properly diagram their DMUs (and keep them on diagram) is not the Court's problem nor should it be that of the wheelchair user.

The ramp is either too steep or bumps into a wall or similar, can't remember which. It's to do with the double step. We have stations where ramps can't be deployed for safety reasons.

I disagree - until 01/01/20 there's no requirement for trains to be accessible full stop. Changing the unit rostering is not a minor adjustment. It could take a week or two worth of adjustments to diagrams to achieve. I don't believe it was prebooked either way.

 

[Narom]

It sounds like you've had some bad experiences and the original articke in this thread certainly doesn't help the railways reputation.

Never on the railway. As a carer we've only ever travelled on Merseyrail and they've always been brilliant and we are more than happy that guards will be kept on their trains.

 

[Amy Worrall]

In my opinion, it should ALWAYS count as reasonable adjustment for a disabled passenger to request a ramp to help them board or leave the train. They shouldn't have to pre-book, either — the aim is to give disabled people the same freedom as the rest of the population, and the rest of the population don't have to plan their rail travel a day in advance. (Obviously if they wish to pre-book as a courtesy, then that's a good situation for everyone — but it should be the disabled person's choice.)

If this makes services late, then so be it. The way to mitigate such delays should be by improvements to rolling stock, staffing levels etc, and that should be up to the TOC to decide. But the TOC should not be allowed to prioritise timeliness over disabled rights.

Regarding stations where ramps cannot be deployed for safety reasons, that's a different issue. I'd hope they'd be fixed ASAP, but I appreciate there is a lot of old infrastructure on the railway network. I just hope those safety reasons are genuine, not "we can't be bothered to do a new risk assessment when the slope would be one degree steeper than normal".

 

[pemma]

1. Why is this?

2. I think a Court would determine, as Northern have a selection of DMUs, that it would be a "reasonable adjustment" to deploy a Class 150 on a service where assistance had been requested in advance at that station as the very minimum. That Northern are too incompetent to properly diagram their DMUs (and keep them on diagram) is not the Court's problem nor should it be that of the wheelchair user.

Although at stations with low platforms having a 142 on a service is an advantage for less mobile passengers due to the double step.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although at stations with low platforms having a 142 on a service is an advantage for less mobile passengers due to the double step.

This is true, though I still think PRM-TSI missed a trick by not mandating all new stock to have level boarding at one of the standard platform heights as used in that country.

 

[OneOffDave]

If (the guard) thinks it's acceptable for them to be lifted on rather than using the ramp they've got to accept the risk/liability for damage/injury should the chair/buggy and the child in it be dropped. There's a world of difference between a heavy case and a human being

 

[whhistle]

If you are already carrying a passenger in a wheelchair and arrive at a station with another passenger in a wheelchair and have no other safe space for the additional passenger to travel in then that is another matter altogether . But to refuse on the grounds of delay is unacceptable .

Remember though, sometimes the travelling public like to invent their own reasons why something happens/doesn't happen. This thought then translates into fact.

What I find strange is Northern apologised straight away... without any form of investigation?
Unless they were already aware and have investigated of course.

 

[muz379]

What I find strange is Northern apologised straight away... without any form of investigation?
Unless they were already aware and have investigated of course.

It does not really surprise me that much . It seems the order of the day that once the story has ended up in the newspaper the TOC will apologise straight away without having had time to properly investigate .All it is is an apology that the customers experience was not a great one . That in itself is no admission or wrongdoing and just makes sense from a PR perspective .

 

[richw]

What I find strange is Northern apologised straight away... without any form of investigation?

An apology isn’t an acknowledgment of guilt.
For example “sorry you feel that way” is apologising for how you feel rather than what you’ve done. All about careful wording to avoid taking blame