Northern's £80 settlements and lack of incentive for Northern to provide facilities

[yorkie]

I don't understand why Byelaw 18 should still be allowed. Why is it a strict liability to present a ticket?

Getting rid of it wouldn't make it any more difficult for genuine fare evaders to be caught and prosecuted.

I agree, it shouldn't be allowed. There should be prosecutions when there is intent, but not otherwise.

While it exists, there is nothing we can do to stop Northern using it, but Northern are unable to use it where passengers boarded from stations without adequate facilities as no Byelaw 18 offence would be committed. They can't use Byelaw 18 to prosecute the OP of Failure to Pay - Northern Rail, for example.

Agreed 100%. There is no excuse for not having methods of payment available before boarding at urban and suburban stations, thus making a failure to pay obvious. One simple rule - you buy before you board; tickets are not sold on board or on arrival. Works for Metrolink, and it would also work for all Greater Manchester urban services, and probably most of the rural ones that pass through there as well.

Northern will not do this, no-one can (or will) make them do it, and their prosecution threats will continue unabated.

 

[Starmill]

Agreed 100%. There is no excuse for not having methods of payment available before boarding at urban and suburban stations, thus making a failure to pay obvious. One simple rule - you buy before you board; tickets are not sold on board or on arrival. Works for Metrolink, and it would also work for all Greater Manchester urban services, and probably most of the rural ones that pass through there as well.

This sounds great to me. All it requires is:

A minimum of 1 ticket machine per platform
A minimum of 1 help point per platform

At every station. Where locations require it these may be placed in more suitable locations than on the platform. Unless there are more than 2 machines all must accept cash and cards. Then you've got to make sure that these all work with a high availability rate. Regular maintenance, remote monitoring of their status, a solid servicing regime so that they don't run out of tickets. They also need to be very user friendly, easy to read and easy to press. It goes without saying that they need to be able to sell all tickets that might conceivably be needed to board a train at that station.

Metrolink has managed that. I don't see why Northern couldn't.

In the original post it states (my bold):

Thanks. Good to know I've got you here to set me straight.

 

[island]

This sounds great to me. All it requires is:

A minimum of 1 ticket machine per platform
A minimum of 1 help point per platform

At every station. Where locations require it these may be placed in more suitable locations than on the platform. Unless there are more than 2 machines all must accept cash and cards. Then you've got to make sure that these all work with a high availability rate. Regular maintenance, remote monitoring of their status, a solid servicing regime so that they don't run out of tickets. They also need to be very user friendly, easy to read and easy to press. It goes without saying that they need to be able to sell all tickets that might conceivably be needed to board a train at that station.

Would you be willing to pay the fare increase needed to fund the purchase and installation of the machines, the design of the user interface, the team of maintenance people to travel around and keep them in working order, and the frequent repair of machines at unstaffed stations with high vandalism rates?

Or more to the point, would the travelling public?

 

[ian959]

I agree, it shouldn't be allowed. There should be prosecutions when there is intent, but not otherwise.

Sorry but byelaw 18 is a very sensible piece of law in my view. If you cannot produce a ticket when requested to do so, then clearly in probably 95% of cases that is all the evidence necessary. Sure there will be times when people have genuinely lost their ticket, but in the vast majority of cases they would never have had a ticket in the first place.

Yes I have an issue where a TOC tries some of the tricks that Northern do like pulling people out of a line at the ticket booth, but really and truly how often does that happen?

We might see a number of cases here on the forums but there are probably other reasons why people get pulled out. We only ever hear one side of the story. We would need to know BOTH sides of the story in order to judge whether the action was fair or not. It should also be borne in mind that most likely the sort of person who does deliberately evade fares is more likely to lie in what they tell us on the forum. It is natural that we try and make our story look like it is not our fault that we deliberately evaded a fare.

Sure in an ideal world there would be a TVM selling every possible ticket on every platform in the UK. We don't live in an ideal world unfortunately.

 

[swt_passenger]

Charge them the fare due as the PTT will positively state what station they got on at.

I'm thinking of where the destination is also unbarriered and there's normally no physical inspection. In that case there is a risk that the PTT legitimises those who pay only when challenged.

AIUI this is why SWT have removed them across their network except at a very small number of stations when there is no TVM fitted.

 

[najaB]

This sounds great to me. All it requires is...

Metrolink has managed that. I don't see why Northern couldn't.

I can't tell if your post is serious or not...

Metrolink is a largely urban, intensively used service (92 stations). Northern is a much larger (463 stations operated / 526 served) network - some of the stations Northern operate are used by double-digit numbers of passengers daily (and a few are into single-digits!), I doubt that many of Metrolink's stations are under a thousand passengers on an average weekday.

 

[pemma]

Something I've observed about the Northern Parkeon TVMs is they won't accept Post Office credit cards (Mastercard), even though they do work on portable off-line machines. I don't know if there's any other card types the Parkeon TVMs won't accept which portable off-line machines do accept.

 

[34D]

I'm thinking of where the destination is also unbarriered and there's normally no physical inspection. In that case there is a risk that the PTT legitimises those who pay only when challenged.

AIUI this is why SWT have removed them across their network except at a very small number of stations when there is no TVM fitted.

I think the idea is that there would always be a grip on the train. If someone got on with a PTT from Mauldeth Road and then asked for a single to piccadilly that would be naughty, but if they asked for a northwest 3 in 7 rover or something they would be allowed.

 

[sheff1]

I can't tell if your post is serious or not...

Metrolink is a largely urban, intensively used service (92 stations). Northern is a much larger (463 stations operated / 526 served) network - some of the stations Northern operate are used by double-digit numbers of passengers daily (and a few are into single-digits!), I doubt that many of Metrolink's stations are under a thousand passengers on an average weekday.

The post was clearly about Greater Manchester urban services. I, too, see no valid reason why Northern cannot do the same as Metrolink in the GM urban area.

An alternative is the Merseyrail one of staffing all stations in the urban area. Refering to another point above, Merseyrail fares are very reasonable - no need, apparently, for fare increases there to cover the cost of providing proper ticket selling facilities.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the idea is that there would always be a grip on the train.

I thought most of the problems in the area were because there usually isn't a check on the train though? At least that's what many of the posters in 'disputes' seem to claim...

 

[34D]

I thought most of the problems in the area were because there usually isn't a check on the train though? At least that's what many of the posters in 'disputes' seem to claim...

Indeed. But I think what I envisage is that in a couple of years time everyone either hands over an itso card for scanning, or already has a ticket, with a couple of people who have a PTT.

Granted, the issue of sardine like trains could remain.

 

[CheesyChips]

What I think this thread illustrates is the inability of some people on this forum to view the railway network from the perspective of the 'man on the street' i.e the typical travelling public.

Undeniably the vast majority of people haven't got a clue about RORA vs byelaw offences (or know of their existence) and don't see the illegality of just jumping on the train without a ticket. Whilst I'm not defending this action at all, there appears to be such an inequitable imbalance towards the TOCs when it comes to resolving such cases even when there's no fraud intended.

This isn't a criticism of the forum itself but a criticism of the laws often discussed, particularly the strict liability offences but I fear that this subforum could be easily condensed into a simple flowchart given that details such as "i didn't see the sign" and "It was just a day after..." are discarded by contributors.

If railway-specific legislation was removed, how quickly would Northern be making a business case for TVMs everywhere or begin penalising guards who fail to make their way through the whole train to sell tickets? Probably just easier to prosecute and trick people for now.

 

[Starmill]

I can't tell if your post is serious or not...

Metrolink is a largely urban, intensively used service (92 stations). Northern is a much larger (463 stations operated / 526 served) network - some of the stations Northern operate are used by double-digit numbers of passengers daily (and a few are into single-digits!), I doubt that many of Metrolink's stations are under a thousand passengers on an average weekday.

I thought it was quite clear I was referring to (Northern) stations in the Greater Manchester area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would you be willing to pay the fare increase needed to fund the purchase and installation of the machines, the design of the user interface, the team of maintenance people to travel around and keep them in working order, and the frequent repair of machines at unstaffed stations with high vandalism rates?

Or more to the point, would the travelling public?

There needn't be one. DfT should simply mandate these standards. Don't you think they would be good? There aren't that many stations in Greater Manchester. DfT can say that if TOC doesn't want to pay to comply with them they may not make use of their rights under Byelaw 18.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sure in an ideal world there would be a TVM selling every possible ticket on every platform in the UK. We don't live in an ideal world unfortunately.

Well just remember that then if you ever join a train at a station with no facilities to pay and arrive at a Manchester station only to be accused of fare evasion. You're £80 down? Well, it's not an ideal world is it... :roll:

 

[island]

There needn't be one. DfT should simply mandate these standards. Don't you think they would be good? There aren't that many stations in Greater Manchester. DfT can say that if TOC doesn't want to pay to comply with them they may not make use of their rights under Byelaw 18.

Who's going to fund them so? I suppose Northern could give the old magic money tree a good shake :roll:

And the DaFT can't say that; it would require legislation.

 

[Starmill]

Not beyond the realms of possibility. New franchise agreements are doubtless being drafted as we speak. DfT has a lot of influence if it wants to use it.

Regarding the money, allow me to be clear. It's not an adequate excuse to prosecute with such moral discrepancy, an effective abuse of power, that money isn't available for better ticket issuing facilities. Arriva Trains Wales aren't a lucrative London commuter franchise, they don't prosecute people in this way and they do have better ticket issuing facilities at a lot of smaller stations.

Northern can afford better ticket issuing facilities. They probably do not want to reduce their profits by providing them voluntarily. The current situation should not be permitted to continue. It is within the remit and the powers of the DfT to do something about this.

I hope that's clear. No cake and eating thank you.

 

[pemma]

Who's going to fund them so? I suppose Northern could give the old magic money tree a good shake :roll:

According to Northern every £1 they spend on the revenue protection contract with STM Security brings in £2 of revenue. Northern Rail Limited have managed to make £30m profits in a single year, maybe spending £1m on more ticket selling facilities would bring in more than £1m in extra revenue, meaning over time Northern Rail would make more profits as well as refunding more subsidy to DfT.

 

[34D]

And the DaFT can't say that; it would require legislation.

They could stipulate it in the franchise agreement without having to create a piece of legislation. Said document would be considered 'persuasive' if a matter ever got before the bench.

Alternatively, it could be added to one of the documents that is created after the next budget (Finance Act 2016 I guess)

 

[crehld]

Who's going to fund them so? I suppose Northern could give the old magic money tree a good shake :roll:

And the DaFT can't say that; it would require legislation.

Would £1bn do it? Someone up thread claimed that was the annual cost of ticketless travel. And the installation of ticket machines is a one off capital cost so once they're in place you can start to recoup the cost (less a small maintenance fee).

 

[Mojo]

What I think this thread illustrates is the inability of some people on this forum to view the railway network from the perspective of the 'man on the street' i.e the typical travelling public.

On the contrary; this, and the thread it was split from, seemed to be about how confusing it is for an ordinary customer.

For instance, I was travelling to Wigan on Saturday morning. At Salford Crescent, a station with a manned booking office which was open at the time, a guy in his early 20s boarded the train and when approached by the Conductor asked for a return to Atherton. He was sold the £4.20 CDR. No remark was made by either party, who both acted as if that was a completely normal transaction.

Now imagine that there was a Revenue Protection Inspector on board the train, or that the Conductor never came round to him and there was a block on at Atherton. I can understand that he might be a little confused when issued with a "penalty fake" as he may have spent years purchasing tickets on board.

To be fair to Northern, I have noticed a lot more posters on trains and stations, but they aren't exactly clear that you should "Buy Before You Board." The posters aren't particularly prominent or eye-catching either. But the main issue for me, is that even if the Conductor isn't going to sell the Anytime fare, should it not at least be pointed out to the customer that they must buy from the machine or booking office in future (where facilities exist)?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

To be fair to Northern, I have noticed a lot more posters on trains and stations, but they aren't exactly clear that you should "Buy Before You Board." The posters aren't particularly prominent or eye-catching either. But the main issue for me, is that even if the Conductor isn't going to sell the Anytime fare, should it not at least be pointed out to the customer that they must buy from the machine or booking office in future (where facilities exist)?

I used to insist on selling the SDR / SOR in such situations. It came to my attention however that I spent far more time arguing with people over why I was charging them £x rather than the £y that it was pointless. I could actually protect more revenue, make more money and have less ticketless / incorrect travel overall by just selling whatever the cheapest fare was if someone was actually sat there with their money waiting to pay. If someone was obviously deliberately trying to avoid paying then they would get the full fare however. I often offer words of advice, but am fairly confident it falls on deaf ears though.

Incidentally, I note that throughout this thread there is this belief that people will use facilities if they are provided. Yesterday I worked a train from one major Northern city to another. It stopped at 6 stations. All of which had working SSTMs, most of them in multiple quantity. 4 of the 6 had open ticket offices. Yet I still took £250, many in smaller local fares. Only about £30 was "excess" penalty type fares (no railcard / wrong train advance etc). Pretty much everyone was ready and willing to pay when challenged, but similarly I would have every confidence that I if I didn't go to them and ask for their tickets then they would quite happily disappear at the end of the journey without paying. Ticket gates, where provided, are about as good at protecting revenue as a tea bag is at being waterproof. On Saturday, working similar routes and trains at similar times, I took £650 during the shift, all from stations with open ticket offices and / or working SSTMs.

You can put as many SSTMs and ticket offices in position as you want, but to solve the ultimate problem of revenue loss (note : not fare evasion, they are different things) from the "only pay when challenged" brigade, then there needs to be a cultural change in attitude overall, and without the weight of the various byelaws or RORA, then this would be even harder for the TOCS and the DfT to solve. And don't forget it was the DfT who insisted as part of the Direct Award that Northern did something about revenue loss quickly and cheaply, so I am sure the DfT actually supports their current approach as meeting these targets quite well.

I am not saying that perhaps Northern need to have better guidance for SSTM and their own officers in when to hand out an £80 FTP or to simply just charge the applicable fare, but the system overall, in my view, is not a bad one in trying to change the attitude of many people.

 

[Mojo]

I used to insist on selling the SDR / SOR in such situations. It came to my attention however that I spent far more time arguing with people over why I was charging them £x rather than the £y that it was pointless. I could actually protect more revenue, make more money and have less ticketless / incorrect travel overall by just selling whatever the cheapest fare was if someone was actually sat there with their money waiting to pay. If someone was obviously deliberately trying to avoid paying then they would get the full fare however. I often offer words of advice, but am fairly confident it falls on deaf ears though.

I agree with this, but the point I was making was that should customers at least not be informed that what they have done is wrong? I should imagine that most people that buy on board (including the gentleman in my example) have no idea what they are doing is wrong and potentially opens them up to the risk of prosecution! This is certainly the requirement of a real Penalty fares scheme.

 

[tony_mac]

I agree with this, but the point I was making was that should customers at least not be informed that what they have done is wrong? I should imagine that most people that buy on board (including the gentleman in my example) have no idea what they are doing is wrong and potentially opens them up to the risk of prosecution! This is certainly the requirement of a real Penalty fares scheme.

My experience is that getting to the ticket office involves going up and down stairs. Of the 15-20 posters you see on the way, none mention buying before boarding. The train guard always just sells people a ticket, with discounts, and never mentions it.
Why should I bother with the stairs, when the practice every day makes it obvious that you can buy on board?

Maybe most of the warnings would fall on deaf ears, but that still doesn't mean they shouldn't be given. Some would definitely be beneficial - particularly to those that have a ticket this time but overhear it.

There is also some conflict of interest, in that the guards themselves receive commission from the sales - why should they encourage people to use the ticket office?

The scheme really needs to have the day-to-day support from the majority of the customer-facing staff, and that just isn't happening.

 

[Crossover]

This sounds great to me. All it requires is:

A minimum of 1 ticket machine per platform
A minimum of 1 help point per platform

At every station. Where locations require it these may be placed in more suitable locations than on the platform. Unless there are more than 2 machines all must accept cash and cards. Then you've got to make sure that these all work with a high availability rate. Regular maintenance, remote monitoring of their status, a solid servicing regime so that they don't run out of tickets. They also need to be very user friendly, easy to read and easy to press. It goes without saying that they need to be able to sell all tickets that might conceivably be needed to board a train at that station.

You can be as sure as night follows day that if Northern did this, they would do one ticket machine per station, which would would be extraordinarily awkward at places like Mirfield!

Oh, and they'd be Parkeon, too, just to make it worse

 

[tbtc]

Is this a cultural thing around Manchester?

Or is it just the make-up of the Forum that means that we seem to hear a disproportionate amount of examples of people being caught without a ticket (or short faring etc) around Manchester?

According to Northern every £1 they spend on the revenue protection contract with STM Security brings in £2 of revenue. Northern Rail Limited have managed to make £30m profits in a single year, maybe spending £1m on more ticket selling facilities would bring in more than £1m in extra revenue, meaning over time Northern Rail would make more profits as well as refunding more subsidy to DfT.

Northern can afford better ticket issuing facilities. They probably do not want to reduce their profits by providing them voluntarily

The problem on this thread is that we are arguing about something we have no figures for, just hunches on whether something would be cost effective or not.

We don't know the total number of passengers without tickets (since, obviously, they aren't buying tickets) or the number of people short faring/ doughnutting etc.

We can guess a certain percentage, based on some small samples of "stings" against the number of tickets purchased nationally, but we're still guessing.

For arguments sake, lets say it costs a thousand pounds per machine plus a hundred pounds a year to maintain (these are figures plucked out of thin air). How many additional tickets would a TOC have to sell to justify that kind of cost? How many passengers are there at intermediate stations on the Little North Western/ Whitby branch etc?

Some of the rural Northern stations don't see more than a passenger or two an hour (a passenger or two a day in some cases, but the cost of the machines is going to be the same at some remote rural station as it would be at an urban one - maybe even more expensive at a rural station since it'll be more awkward for people to get to to empty the cash vaults regularly). No guarantee that the TOC will see 100% of the revenue either, given ORCATS.

And then do we accept that some days the machine will be Out Of Order... what then? Passengers can buy reduced price tickets on board? But how will the Guard know whether the machine is broken or not? How lenient should they be?

I'm in favour of such machines, but I don't think they'll necessarily be cheap/ simple/ profitable to install/ operate.

While I agree that additional ticket machines are needed, there's no reason that buying your ticket after you travel would add any more time to the end-to-end journey than buying afterwards at your destination. The time 'lost' at the destination station is 'saved' by not having to turn up as early at your origin station.

After posting I thought I should change "would take" to "should need to take" - in my mind I was placing the additional ticket machines at the major terminus stations. A gallery of twenty or thirty ticket machines, rather than a single ticket machine at each of twenty or thirty outlying stations.

That's an interesting way of looking at it - it'd certainly be more efficient to employ one extra machine (or one extra member of staff) at a busy station like Leeds than it would be to devote that amount of resources to each station.

Runs the risk of a significant amount of people claiming they boarded at somewhere nearby (Burley Park), but maybe one block a week at such stations would help? Dunno.

I think it is because the majority of fare evasion actually occurs from stations where ticketing facilities already exist.

That's the impression I get too.

I don't think that all of the solutions being offered on this thread are going to tackle the hardcore who already board at stations with ticketing facilities.

Worrying about the handful of passengers boarding at rural stations is fine, but doesn't solve the problem that a lot of people are boarding at urban stations with ticketing facilities without buying tickets.

Agreed 100%. There is no excuse for not having methods of payment available before boarding at urban and suburban stations, thus making a failure to pay obvious. One simple rule - you buy before you board; tickets are not sold on board or on arrival. Works for Metrolink, and it would also work for all Greater Manchester urban services, and probably most of the rural ones that pass through there as well.

At the very least there should be a Permit to Travel machine, but with advancing technology a "full" TVM should not be all that much more expensive.

Very rural lines could operate on a Paytrain basis, with this policy clearly stated on signage, but there aren't many of those in Greater Manchester itself.

Sounds good, but the nature of Northern's services means that many aren't simply confined to the boundaries of one PTE. In the case of Manchester, there's stations out in Derbyshire/ Cheshire/ Lancashire etc to consider too.

Much easier on self contained systems like Merseyrail/ Metrolink.

Then what do you do about people who take a PTT when their fares are available from the TVM?

Good point.

I thought most of the problems in the area were because there usually isn't a check on the train though? At least that's what many of the posters in 'disputes' seem to claim...

Agreed. But then that leads us into the "DOO" line of arguments, which is a whole other can of worms

It would cost less than that to equip every remaining station with TVMs...so I wonder why TOCs don't do it?

All it requires is:

A minimum of 1 ticket machine per platform
A minimum of 1 help point per platform

At every station. Where locations require it these may be placed in more suitable locations than on the platform. Unless there are more than 2 machines all must accept cash and cards. Then you've got to make sure that these all work with a high availability rate. Regular maintenance, remote monitoring of their status, a solid servicing regime so that they don't run out of tickets. They also need to be very user friendly, easy to read and easy to press

the installation of ticket machines is a one off capital cost so once they're in place you can start to recoup the cost (less a small maintenance fee)

I'm with starmill here - such machines aren't always cheap to maintain/ operate.

They are at fairly remote locations (e.g. meaning a long drive for the people travelling between them to empty the cash vaults etc) where they may be easily vandalised (assuming you want them to accept cash, as most seem to want to, you've got a chance that some idiot will try to prise one open at a remote station from time to time).

You'd need a couple of machines (and help points) at places like Dent that may only take a few quid in fares, yet have to be checked/ emptied/ replenished on a regular cycle. Its really not as simple as gets suggested. Despite the huge increases in passenger numbers nationally, there's over fifty stations with the equivalent of fewer than ten departing passengers a week.

On the contrary; this, and the thread it was split from, seemed to be about how confusing it is for an ordinary customer.

For instance, I was travelling to Wigan on Saturday morning. At Salford Crescent, a station with a manned booking office which was open at the time, a guy in his early 20s boarded the train and when approached by the Conductor asked for a return to Atherton. He was sold the £4.20 CDR. No remark was made by either party, who both acted as if that was a completely normal transaction.

Now imagine that there was a Revenue Protection Inspector on board the train, or that the Conductor never came round to him and there was a block on at Atherton. I can understand that he might be a little confused when issued with a "penalty fake" as he may have spent years purchasing tickets on board.

To be fair to Northern, I have noticed a lot more posters on trains and stations, but they aren't exactly clear that you should "Buy Before You Board." The posters aren't particularly prominent or eye-catching either. But the main issue for me, is that even if the Conductor isn't going to sell the Anytime fare, should it not at least be pointed out to the customer that they must buy from the machine or booking office in future (where facilities exist)?

That's the problem - a "nice" Guard who'll sell CDRs on board will get goodwill from passengers (and some commission on tickets!), but isn't helping with the TOC's message of "Thou Shalt Purchase At Your First Station Or Face Expensive Consequences".

If you know that you can board at Salford Crescent without purchasing a ticket and that the worst outcome is purchasing a CDR if the Guard manages to come round and ask for your ticket, then how many people are going to game the system and think only a mug would queue up at Salford to purchase a ticket before boarding (with the potential consequence of missing their train)?

That goes back to the "cultural" thing I mentioned above - a lot of people don't think there's anything wrong with buying before boarding (and when they do get "caught" then only have to pay the cheap fare anyway). Frustrating!

 

[Blindtraveler]

I wouldn't normally respond to or even trawl through the full lengths of this type of thread/argument/slagging match but I was asked by a member of forum staff for my views so have done so.

First off I agree that those who walk past open booking offices and working TVMs and still expect a railcard discounted super off peek return paid partly in 2 pences and partly with an RTV to be sold onboard without so much as a word being said need there habits tactfully changing as its this kind of action that not only makes Northern or any other company think that a herd of poorly paid, abusive, rude and disinterested securitty guards can disrupt the lives of the overwhelming majority of the travelling public who often go out of there way to pay and intend to do so, but also closes/reduces the hours of ticket offices, making the above much harder to achieve, especially if you want a ticket not offered by a machine or if like me (registered blind) you cant use it!

Worth pointing out here that I'm a BIG fan of Northern who other than the above type of staff and a particularly vial RPI on Saturday just past provide a great service with friendly people and try their best IMO.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is no incentive for Northern to provide adequate ticketing facilities either on suburban stations or by on-train fare collection when they are continually allowed to get away with such a lucrative scam. After all, it would take a lot of correctly-sold tickets to add up to the £80 "fine" with which they can sting unsuspecting passengers. I believe this is, literally, criminal and long for the day when Northern managers are given the long prison sentences they richly deserve as a fair match for the penalties which can be imposed on passengers, plus immediate and uncompensated loss of the franchise. Sadly I don't think I'll live to see such a day.

Note: split from Failure to Pay - Northern Rail

agree totally with this!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This comment is simply perverse:There has never been, and I doubt will ever be, a single railway passenger who has been offered the administrative settlement which Northern Rail offer, who has been denied any of the possible outcomes from ticketless travel that are otherwise available to them, and (perhaps more importantly) who has been denied any of the only outcomes available to them had they travelled with any of the other UK rail operators.

The "unsuspecting passengers" you refer to are, of course, only that subset of passengers who travel without a ticket - the situation which all of the UK operators have to deal with (but without the publicised offer to their passengers of a settlement), and which in total is costed at over £1 billon p.a.

The most "lurative scam" that anyone appears to be "allowed to get away with" seems to me to be that of the persistent and determined passengers failing to pay for the service taken. But I do appreciate a well presented 'consumerist complaint' when I see one.

We very rarely disagree Dave but I should tell you that you have insulted me with this post and 1 forum staff member has already been informed of this and 1 or other staff members will be further informed by my reporting this and requesting action.

I have been stung twice by the familiar unstaffed station, no grip on-board situation twice now. 1st time the station had a (unusable for me) TVM, THE 2ND TIME IT DIDN'T.

On both occasions I was treated shamefully at MAN, the 1st time I was allowed to pay and speak with Northern who settled it with a compensatory day rover, the 2nd time a year later they tried to accuse me of trying it on and I ended up paying £80 etc.

On both occasions comments were made along the lines of I shouldn't be travelling myself and where's my carer - humiliating. Also worth pointing out that the organisations that represent blind and PS individuals such as RNIB were about as much help as a hot water bottle in the desert.

The result is I'm now very unwilling to make an unscheduled trip in the affected areas which often results in inconvenience/greater costs etc.

I'm a believer that every unstaffed station with or without a TVM Should also have an easy to use accessible PTT Facility that would improve things greatly for many travellers.

The situation wont improve however whilst people like yourself Dave continue to take the view that those who don't pay, wont. It's not the case and I don't really care what you say in defence of this or how much money you make at the expense of us so called fare evaders with perfectly valid reasons for not having a valid ticket!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The £80 FTP scheme is fine.

It is fairly obvious that Northern need to adopt a different policy towards people who genuinely haven't had the opportunity to pay prior to being stopped by the revenue staff.
On a network like Northern's you will never get sstm's at every station, simply due to the size of the network and issues around vandalism, location etc.


However, as in my experience the vast majority of lost revenue comes from the "pay only when challenged" brigade, who will think nothing of walking past an open ticket office or working ticket machine at the start of their journey, and will quite happily walk out at the other end without paying either unless stopped, it is this attitude that needs to change, and no amount of ticket machines or ticket offices will stop this. Realistically a hard line and suitable penalty is required to reinforce this message.

 

[tony_mac]

Realistically a hard line and suitable penalty is required to reinforce this message.

Ultimately, yes.
However, it has to start with adequately informing passengers - which staff are not doing. Giving the staff incentives to not do it is probably not helping.

 

[Starmill]

The £80 FTP scheme is fine.

It is fairly obvious that Northern need to adopt a different policy towards people who genuinely haven't had the opportunity to pay prior to being stopped by the revenue staff.
On a network like Northern's you will never get sstm's at every station, simply due to the size of the network and issues around vandalism, location etc.

Aren't these 2 ideas, given Northern's current culture and way of behaving, mutually exclusive?

 

[pemma]

Regarding a couple of points in tbtc`s post.

Northern`s current policy is to install card only machines at stations which aren`t staffed for most of the day to reduce risk of vandalism and maintenance costs. Presumably the people who change the posters at rural stations can also fill up machines with blank tickets?

The number of passengers doesn`t always reflect the number of tickets which could be sold. Take Edale on a Summer Saturday you can get 20 or more passengers boarding some trains but they are mostly day trippers who should already be in possession of a ticket from their outward journey.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Aren't these 2 ideas, given Northern's current culture and way of behaving, mutually exclusive?

No.

The scheme should be what it is, a penalty for failing to pay when you have had the opportunity to do so.

If you haven't had the opportunity to do so then you shouldn't get an FTP, merely pay the fare that was due if you did have the opportunity to pay.