No. You just need to accept that if it was simple they would have done it already. Any scheme that includes TVMs needs to factor in a certain amount of losses due to vandalism, etc. Just saying "CCTV will prevent loss" is being supremely optimistic.
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Northern's £80 settlements and lack of incentive for Northern to provide facilities
- Thread starter neilmc
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Potentially yes, and Northern already have this in place. But there remain a number of flaws in relying on it as a universal means of ticketing.
1. App requires mobile signal in order for mTickets to be purchased. 100% coverage cannot be assured.
2. Requires all passengers to have a smart phone. Again 100% coverage cannot be assured, especially among certain demographics of passengers.
3. Takes up to 15 minutes from point of purchase for ticket to be available for use. So no walk up and go.
4. From my local station (Hellifield) I can only use a mobile ticket to travel to four destinations: Bentham, Long Preston, Skipton and Wennington.
5. M-Tickets are not available from many Northern stations.
6. The railway industry permits me to pay by cash, any Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro or Amex card, RTVs or rail warrants. m-Tickets restrict me to card only, so it does not represent an adequate opportunity to pay.
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That as well!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
noddingdonkey
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True, but build in a way that you can give the guard/RPI your username for the service and they can check, and you're good to go.
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Items 3-6 are all perfectly fixable by Northern.
Item 1 may be a valid one, but if you know you're in an area of dodgy signal you can always buy before you head to the station. Tie it in with an initiative to widen WiFi provision on trains (isn't there a Government target already?) and you're onto a winner.
Item 2 is perfectly legitimate, however this would reduce the queues at the Leeds ticket windows as others would use it.
Another option - Oyster/Contactless. We used to have Metro Saverstrip cancellers on every platform, I don't see why an Oyster reader couldn't be a goer.
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Items 3-6 are all perfectly fixable by Northern.
Item 1 may be a valid one, but if you know you're in an area of dodgy signal you can always buy before you head to the station. Tie it in with an initiative to widen WiFi provision on trains (isn't there a Government target already?) and you're onto a winner.
Item 2 is perfectly legitimate, however this would reduce the queues at the Leeds ticket windows as others would use it.
Another option - Oyster/Contactless. We used to have Metro Saverstrip cancellers on every platform, I don't see why an Oyster reader couldn't be a goer.
The correct response to my saying that TVMs would be vandalised wasn't to give up, it was to say that regular emptying of the machines (e.g. multiple times per day) would (a) make them less of a target since they would contain a lot less money; and (b) allow them to be brought back into use much quicker.
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Item 1 may be a valid one, but if you know you're in an area of dodgy signal you can always buy before you head to the station. Tie it in with an initiative to widen WiFi provision on trains (isn't there a Government target already?) and you're onto a winner.
That strays dangerously close to expecting the passenger to know in advance what may cause them issues. Fair enough when you're talking about regular travellers, but it is unreasonable to base your policies on the assumption that everyone is a regular.
Operators need to ensure it is straightforward to purchase legitimately, and then apply a consistent policy to those who don't adhere.
That strays dangerously close to expecting the passenger to know in advance what may cause them issues. Fair enough when you're talking about regular travellers, but it is unreasonable to base your policies on the assumption that everyone is a regular.
Operators need to ensure it is straightforward to purchase legitimately, and then apply a consistent policy to those who don't adhere.
Indeed. And the same machines for ClipperCard in GMPTE land.
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starmill makes a very good and true point that FTP income will be a part of the current Northern's business plan that they don't particularly want to loose.
As he says, they could arrange things so that the cases which wouldn't succeed before the mags stop being FTP (due to proper facilities) and those that remain are cases that are right and proper for the mags to hear.
BurtonM
Member
With regard to a question posed a few pages back, on Manchester and fare evasion.
Manchester's Northern ticket staff have been incompetent as long as they've been outsourced. Let's look back to G4S.
For example, at Piccadilly, instead of blocking 13/14, they moved the RPIs to block the overbridge, and concourse doors on 10-14. This created an unclosable loophole (unclosable because it relates to accessibility, someone could cry Equality Act) that I shan't disclose but I'm sure any regular user of 13/14 will be aware of. I have seen this covered by an RPI on very rare occasions. There's a Northern TVM inside the current revenue block, but it never gets used: could you possibly gain entry to the block sans ticket, claiming you wish to use the TVM?
Lately I have noticed the overbridge isn't always barriered - in which case all you have to do is wander down, check for a platform with no RPIs at the other end, and away you go. That's two loopholes!
As for Vic, we all know about the McDonald's problem.
Before the ticket barriers were installed, I always observed the gate staff at Victoria to be completely useless:
-Running to catch a train from P3 that was about to leave. RPI waves me through without checking ticket.
-Staff not paying attention or manning barrier, they're all standing having a chat and don't see a train come in. I pass unchallenged.
-Staff don't read tickets.
-discussions with other Twitter users passing through Vic suggested the staff didn't actually care if you had a ticket as long as you waved something at them that looked like one
-No knowledge of ticket types, what you can and can't have, no local specialist knowledge e.g. TfGM Scholar's Concessionary Permit and LACON coded singles/returns
-I went up the stairs to McDonalds with a friend, ate, and came back down. While still in the station we are stopped by a plain clothes G4S RPI who had somehow decided we were using McDonald's to fare dodge and wouldn't believe that we had no intention of travelling, or that we didn't even arrive at the station on a train (we both came into Manchester on the train earlier in the day - as a matter of fact it's entirely possible neither of us even arrived at Vic, having come from Preston and Stalybridge). RPI insists we show him tickets to prove we aren't fare dodging despite us insisting we haven't even travelled. Luckily we both had valid returns with Manchester Stns/CTLZ as destinations, so we showed them to him simply to get rid of him. Other friends of mine claim this also happened to them. I encountered the same RPI some weeks later after I managed to somehow get out of platform 14 (old G4S block) without the uniforms noticing me, again, showing him a ticket dispersed him.
-In a queue for the gate I once observed two young people use the OUT and RTN portions of the same ticket to attempt to pass through the barrier, they were pulled up on it but immediately let go with little more than a frown from a supervisor
I can't comment on STM at Victoria since barrier installation as I've never had to buy a ticket from them - I always buy at Stalybridge before I board.
Clearly if you use the barrier at Vic now there's no problem (McDonalds notwithstanding), but Piccadilly still has room for improvement. Some of the RPIs on the 13/14 doors do seem to make some attempt to check tickets (and I'm seeing one or two faces regularly), but it's all too easy to pass them by if you choose the busy door, wait for both to be preoccupied and walk right between them.
Can't comment for Oxford Road but I imagine it has less issues as there aren't any loopholes, and there's a gateline. The manned gate may have occasional issues, and from what I've read here apparently the ticket office too!
I have never used Deansgate for any reason.
TVMs are lacking in some places because Northern presumably don't want to install them, or they actively removed them. For example, Flowery Field had a card only Parkeon installed, but it was removed due to vandalism - despite the name the station isn't in the nicest of areas. Northern elected to install card only as they thought the machine would be less prone to vandalism as it didn't carry cash... didn't work.
I suspect Northern fear TVMs installed in many places in GM will just be vandalised - I can think of a few stations where it just wouldn't be wise to bother, mainly unstaffed stations with no buildings (which coincedentally often line up with less affluent areas), but also some like Hattersley where the ticket office closes in the early afternoon.
I think there is something of a consensus amongst rail users in Manchester that the RPIs are all apathetic halfwits (and to an extent this is also my opinion, though I do commend the work of those that do their job), and that this only makes it less likely that people will be inclined to buy a ticket (I always do but I do wonder why I bother sometimes, to be frank). This is only made worse by the RPIs' employers not being Northern, and as such the comapny's interest in, and knowledge of railway operations being limited: it is evident that a large amount of the RPIs have little interest in the workings of the railway or its ticketing system, being trained only to deal with basic cases, i.e.
'you are a ticket inspector. if the person has a ticket with today's date on they can pass. here are some common ticket types and discount codes
~
if the person has no ticket, they are an evil fare dodging swine. take their details and pass them on to the train people to recover costs. do not apply discretion.'
There's a lot of work that needs to be done to combat evasion in Manchester - the problem is entirely a lack of common sense, initiative and drive on Northern's end. The system is never going to be perfect (see: lack of TVMs), but if guards and RPIs followed (correct) procedure and used discrection to the best of their abilities, then Northern could start to work towards minimising their losses.
PS: a ticket machine on every platform at every station is never going to happen as long as parliamentary services exist.
Manchester's Northern ticket staff have been incompetent as long as they've been outsourced. Let's look back to G4S.
For example, at Piccadilly, instead of blocking 13/14, they moved the RPIs to block the overbridge, and concourse doors on 10-14. This created an unclosable loophole (unclosable because it relates to accessibility, someone could cry Equality Act) that I shan't disclose but I'm sure any regular user of 13/14 will be aware of. I have seen this covered by an RPI on very rare occasions. There's a Northern TVM inside the current revenue block, but it never gets used: could you possibly gain entry to the block sans ticket, claiming you wish to use the TVM?
Lately I have noticed the overbridge isn't always barriered - in which case all you have to do is wander down, check for a platform with no RPIs at the other end, and away you go. That's two loopholes!
As for Vic, we all know about the McDonald's problem.
Before the ticket barriers were installed, I always observed the gate staff at Victoria to be completely useless:
-Running to catch a train from P3 that was about to leave. RPI waves me through without checking ticket.
-Staff not paying attention or manning barrier, they're all standing having a chat and don't see a train come in. I pass unchallenged.
-Staff don't read tickets.
-discussions with other Twitter users passing through Vic suggested the staff didn't actually care if you had a ticket as long as you waved something at them that looked like one
-No knowledge of ticket types, what you can and can't have, no local specialist knowledge e.g. TfGM Scholar's Concessionary Permit and LACON coded singles/returns
-I went up the stairs to McDonalds with a friend, ate, and came back down. While still in the station we are stopped by a plain clothes G4S RPI who had somehow decided we were using McDonald's to fare dodge and wouldn't believe that we had no intention of travelling, or that we didn't even arrive at the station on a train (we both came into Manchester on the train earlier in the day - as a matter of fact it's entirely possible neither of us even arrived at Vic, having come from Preston and Stalybridge). RPI insists we show him tickets to prove we aren't fare dodging despite us insisting we haven't even travelled. Luckily we both had valid returns with Manchester Stns/CTLZ as destinations, so we showed them to him simply to get rid of him. Other friends of mine claim this also happened to them. I encountered the same RPI some weeks later after I managed to somehow get out of platform 14 (old G4S block) without the uniforms noticing me, again, showing him a ticket dispersed him.
-In a queue for the gate I once observed two young people use the OUT and RTN portions of the same ticket to attempt to pass through the barrier, they were pulled up on it but immediately let go with little more than a frown from a supervisor
I can't comment on STM at Victoria since barrier installation as I've never had to buy a ticket from them - I always buy at Stalybridge before I board.
Clearly if you use the barrier at Vic now there's no problem (McDonalds notwithstanding), but Piccadilly still has room for improvement. Some of the RPIs on the 13/14 doors do seem to make some attempt to check tickets (and I'm seeing one or two faces regularly), but it's all too easy to pass them by if you choose the busy door, wait for both to be preoccupied and walk right between them.
Can't comment for Oxford Road but I imagine it has less issues as there aren't any loopholes, and there's a gateline. The manned gate may have occasional issues, and from what I've read here apparently the ticket office too!
I have never used Deansgate for any reason.
TVMs are lacking in some places because Northern presumably don't want to install them, or they actively removed them. For example, Flowery Field had a card only Parkeon installed, but it was removed due to vandalism - despite the name the station isn't in the nicest of areas. Northern elected to install card only as they thought the machine would be less prone to vandalism as it didn't carry cash... didn't work.
I suspect Northern fear TVMs installed in many places in GM will just be vandalised - I can think of a few stations where it just wouldn't be wise to bother, mainly unstaffed stations with no buildings (which coincedentally often line up with less affluent areas), but also some like Hattersley where the ticket office closes in the early afternoon.
I think there is something of a consensus amongst rail users in Manchester that the RPIs are all apathetic halfwits (and to an extent this is also my opinion, though I do commend the work of those that do their job), and that this only makes it less likely that people will be inclined to buy a ticket (I always do but I do wonder why I bother sometimes, to be frank). This is only made worse by the RPIs' employers not being Northern, and as such the comapny's interest in, and knowledge of railway operations being limited: it is evident that a large amount of the RPIs have little interest in the workings of the railway or its ticketing system, being trained only to deal with basic cases, i.e.
'you are a ticket inspector. if the person has a ticket with today's date on they can pass. here are some common ticket types and discount codes
~
if the person has no ticket, they are an evil fare dodging swine. take their details and pass them on to the train people to recover costs. do not apply discretion.'
There's a lot of work that needs to be done to combat evasion in Manchester - the problem is entirely a lack of common sense, initiative and drive on Northern's end. The system is never going to be perfect (see: lack of TVMs), but if guards and RPIs followed (correct) procedure and used discrection to the best of their abilities, then Northern could start to work towards minimising their losses.
PS: a ticket machine on every platform at every station is never going to happen as long as parliamentary services exist.
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
It is simple. What it isn't is cheap.
Given that one Penalty Fake is the same as 20 people buying a ticket from Leeds to Bradford, I'm not surprised there isn't much motivation from Northern...
I suppose - physically installing TVMs isn't exactly rocket science. But it does beg the question why they haven't done so already.
I am. The scheme - as they are running it - isn't exactly making them lots of fans. Given that there is a franchise renewal process in the offing you'd think that Serco/Abellio would be trying to drum up popular support. Just look at how much of an effort Virgin/Stagecoach put into their brand recognition and publicity - I'm sure it didn't hurt when Beardy was saying how unfair the DfT had been in the west coast fiasco.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Given the fact that Serco still won contracts despite allegedly defrauding the taxpayer, I don't think that a bit of bad PR will bother them one little bit.
And that makes a difference how exactly? It's hardly like the East Coast franchise where they rely on income from leisure passengers who may choose to drive, or business passengers who may choose to fly. People generally have no choice but to use Northern for these sorts of journeys into places like Manchester, and will mostly use the trains regardless.
..among DfT officials, yes. Which is what they're doing!
A completely different type of operation, and even if Northern were not persecuting their customers they'd not be popular because the franchise doesn't allow for that sort of investment.
Solent&Wessex
Established Member
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- 2,683
I can assure you that Oxford Road barrier is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.
The wide gate is always open, and whilst attended, that is just about all it is. The attendant makes absolutely no effort to challenge or check tickets of anybody walking through it, so people without tickets can just sail through completely unchallenged.
I believe that staff manning it are STM staff.
But don't let that make you think Northern staff would be any better.
The barriers at Leeds are equally ineffective and the staff equally as useless, and they are directly employed by Northern.
bb21
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- 24,151
Let's not turn this into another Serco-bashing thread and try and stick to the central topic.
BurtonM
Member
My apologies: I'm simply saying there might be a connection between their shortfalls and passenger attitudes.
This is also untrue. I've taken the Brighouse via Dewsbury to Leeds train dozens, maybe hundreds of times and I've never been fined for presenting myself at the ticket counter at Leeds on the (common) occasion I couldn't purchase from the guard.
185143
Established Member
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The wide gate is open at all times except the morning peak-which makes trying to get out of the station in anything like an orderly fashion impossible-especially as most of our tickets don't work!
I wasn't aware of the gateline staff at MCO being STM employed; ive never seen the usual staff wearing the STM high vis jackets, and I know of staff (Not at MCO) saying that MCV was to be manned by thugs, unlike other gatelines.
You can't call a statement of facts about a problem someone else had with Northern untrue just because you've never faced the same issues.
Item 1 could be fixed relatively simply. Provide free wifi at the station. This could even be limited to only allow access to the ticket purchasing site.
Indeed. Sceptre's statement (and of course the earlier statement made by DaveNewcastle) is an excellent example of the 'problem of induction'.
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Yes that would fix problem 1. I remain uneasy, however, at the prospect that all passengers must have on their possession a smart phone (which not all passengers own) in order to qualify for travel, in addition to paying the appropriate fare. Where the installation of TVMs is problematic, it is much more suitable to invest in adequate facilities on board (e.g. additional ticket examiners) and not to operate a penalty scheme which assumes universal availability of ticketing opportunities on stations.
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