Northumberland Line : potential expansion and timetable improvements?

[Snex]

Moderator note:

Split from

Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

One of the first big tests of the Northumberland Line, a Newcastle United home night match and Northern have provided extra capacity with a 156 on the back of the usual 158 on 2T65, the last train of the night North so well done for that! The train is well loaded too probably so hopefully a...

www.railforums.co.uk

Could an option not be to swap the clock hours around so you'd have xx:46 trains in an evening rather than xx:16 with the last 2300 train from Ashington only running to Northumberland Park then straight back into the depot.

22:46 is reasonable enough in my opinion.

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

Ashington to Northumberland Park as the last train doesn't seem to have any value.

People will want to go straight onto the City Centre at that time of night and changing at Northumberland Park will be moot as the Metro will have stopped.

 

[androdas]

If it exceeds expectations its a good problem to have but without the problem of the single track sections especially alongside the metro there is not any room for improvement beyond 4 cars every half hour without significant further investment.

 

[ainsworth74]

If it exceeds expectations its a good problem to have but without the problem of the single track sections especially alongside the metro there is not any room for improvement beyond 4 cars every half hour without significant further investment.

I'm not sure that more than that would be required? It struck me the issue was only ever going to be getting enough units to consistently run 4-car sets rather than 2-car rather than increasing the frequency beyond the existing 2tph.

Well, other than electrification but that's a whole other kettle of fish!

 

[D6130]

If it exceeds expectations its a good problem to have but without the problem of the single track sections especially alongside the metro there is not any room for improvement beyond 4 cars every half hour without significant further investment.

IiRC, that was the same problem that affected the Borders Line after its reopening in 2015.

 

[ainsworth74]

IiRC, that was the same problem that affected the Borders Line after its reopening in 2015.

Though surely the same issue there is less that it can't run higher frequency than 2tph and more that there aren't enough units to run 4/6-car formations?

 

[androdas]

I'm not sure that more than that would be required? It struck me the issue was only ever going to be getting enough units to consistently run 4-car sets rather than 2-car rather than increasing the frequency beyond the existing 2tph.

Well, other than electrification but that's a whole other kettle of fish!

I think that's right if we ever get to that point serious consideration would need to be made to electrification possibly using bi-mode / hybrids. I have noticed in the last couple of weeks there have been a few of the Heaton based diagrams cancelled with the 'Too many units needing maintenance' reason which would suggest stock is limited at that depot already.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think that's right if we ever get to that point serious consideration would need to be made to electrification possibly using bi-mode / hybrids.

Oh yeah at the point you're running two trains per hour and each train is 4-car that's a line screaming out for electrification I reckon! We're probably getting a bit speculative now though...

I have noticed in the last couple of weeks there have been a few of the Heaton based diagrams cancelled with the 'Too many units needing maintenance' reason which would suggest stock is limited at that depot already.

Yeah I've noticed the same down here. The Middlesbrough - Newcastle semi-fasts seem to be first on the chopping block (not unreasonably) but there's been some other cancellations as well. Guess it's a combination of winter and also running a fleet of old trains harder and harder at the end of their lives (all these DMUs are, after all, comfortably over 30 years old).

 

[LLivery]

Great to see the popularity even with not all stations opened and helps the argument with other reopenings.

Would it be worth extending the Morpeth terminators to Bedlington? The line is there, the turnback is there and looks relatively straightforward...

 

[hacman]

On the plus side, if demand does indeed remain this strong and increases with the new stations, making a case for funding further upgrades should become much easier. Sadly though I think electrification is very far off. Getting the fares fully integrated with Metro would also be a very good start - the current setup is very much a minimal (and in my view poor) effort.

The section alongside Metro could be doubled - the majority of the right of way is wide enough, even if a little tight. The issue is a few bridges would need rebuilding, and also the way Nexus built Northumberland Park station has the island platform there sitting a little too far towards the north side of the cutting, leaving wasted space. A rebuild could solve that though, and maybe create a cross-platform interchange opportunity or at least a better integrated station. Taking over the road bridge to turn it into the new ticket hall would be a good idea, seeing as it has been closed to traffic for as long as I can remember. That said this will be the last section to be doubled, due to the cost of the aforementioned works.

The rest of the route would be easy to dual, and longer-term it would be nice to see stations added in at Seghill, the south of Ashington to serve the Jubilee estate, and maybe eventually Backworth near the level crossing since that area is going to see housing development soon. Assuming Northern's new units are specified for decent acceleration, adding a few extra stops wouldn't increase end-to-end journey times all that much, but would only further boost passenger numbers.

Sadly I don't think the stations are set for anything more than 4 cars from what I've seen, though I'm happy to be corrected here. Lengthening them wouldn't be the hardest task though!

On the rolling stock front, it does strike me as odd that we're seeing some of the TfW 150s go for scrap right now, when Northern could certainly use the extra units. Yes they're old and riddled with problems, but so are Northern's 150s - so a larger number of them would mean a larger pool to draw from, at least until Northern get their new fleet that is currently under tender.

Of course, the other option to boost frequency with the ECML paths being a major restricting factor would be to upgrade the line from Northumberland Park to Ashington so that Metro trains can also use it, either with their "ready for batteries" capability and recharge facilities at Ashington or by way of actual electrification - this would easily allow a 15-minute service, with alternating Northern and Metro services, with Metro going via Gosforth to Pelaw.

The issue with plain service increases on the Northern service, even if extra ECML paths become available, is always going to be the configuration of Benton Junction, which sees northbound services have to cross the southbound track to access the line; grade separation here is just never going to happen.

 

[Snex]

On the plus side, if demand does indeed remain this strong and increases with the new stations, making a case for funding further upgrades should become much easier. Sadly though I think electrification is very far off. Getting the fares fully integrated with Metro would also be a very good start - the current setup is very much a minimal (and in my view poor) effort.

The section alongside Metro could be doubled - the majority of the right of way is wide enough, even if a little tight. The issue is a few bridges would need rebuilding, and also the way Nexus built Northumberland Park station has the island platform there sitting a little too far towards the north side of the cutting, leaving wasted space. A rebuild could solve that though, and maybe create a cross-platform interchange opportunity or at least a better integrated station. Taking over the road bridge to turn it into the new ticket hall would be a good idea, seeing as it has been closed to traffic for as long as I can remember. That said this will be the last section to be doubled, due to the cost of the aforementioned works.

The rest of the route would be easy to dual, and longer-term it would be nice to see stations added in at Seghill, the south of Ashington to serve the Jubilee estate, and maybe eventually Backworth near the level crossing since that area is going to see housing development soon. Assuming Northern's new units are specified for decent acceleration, adding a few extra stops wouldn't increase end-to-end journey times all that much, but would only further boost passenger numbers.

Sadly I don't think the stations are set for anything more than 4 cars from what I've seen, though I'm happy to be corrected here. Lengthening them wouldn't be the hardest task though!

On the rolling stock front, it does strike me as odd that we're seeing some of the TfW 150s go for scrap right now, when Northern could certainly use the extra units. Yes they're old and riddled with problems, but so are Northern's 150s - so a larger number of them would mean a larger pool to draw from, at least until Northern get their new fleet that is currently under tender.

Of course, the other option to boost frequency with the ECML paths being a major restricting factor would be to upgrade the line from Northumberland Park to Ashington so that Metro trains can also use it, either with their "ready for batteries" capability and recharge facilities at Ashington or by way of actual electrification - this would easily allow a 15-minute service, with alternating Northern and Metro services, with Metro going via Gosforth to Pelaw.

The issue with plain service increases on the Northern service, even if extra ECML paths become available, is always going to be the configuration of Benton Junction, which sees northbound services have to cross the southbound track to access the line; grade separation here is just never going to happen.

Another place which might be difficult to dual is Seaton Delaval station without a major rebuild as they've built the new platform on the old track bed and the bridge is quite close to the station with housing at the other side. It'll be very tight to get a second track in which can curve quick enough to get under the bridge without it being a very tight curve.

I know this is a bit speculation territory but if there was every a rebuild for Northumberland Park, then it needs to be designed to allow a line which heads South towards Cobalt and Silverlink. The line has been in long term planning for years so rebuilding it without that in the design would be short term thinking as an understatement. How you do it, I'll let a planner do that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yeah agreed, it's my local station and I was always unsure how it would do. The fact the X7 (local bus) is unreliable, as an understatement, with regular cancellations probably helps the numbers aswell.

I always thought it would do well. For a while I lived down the far end (Denham Drive area) and the X7 has always been an absolute clown show of a bus service. I was living there ten years ago and, even then, I could ride my bicycle to my job by Haymarket in the same time it took to do that journey on the 8am X7. To the extent that, when I didn't fancy the ride, I often took the 57 down to West Monkseaton and then got the Metro from there as it was quite a bit quicker. And less unpleasant, given Arriva always seemed to stick a single decker on that 8am bus.

I could walk from my house to the 'new' Co-Op in 20-25 minutes. I'd definitely do that rather than take the X7, if I still lived there. Of course most people out there have a car because the public transport isn't great, so in reality they'd drive or get a lift. I strongly suspect that the car park isn't going to be big enough.

know this is a bit speculation territory but if there was every a rebuild for Northumberland Park, then it needs to be designed to allow a line which heads South towards Cobalt and Silverlink. The line has been in long term planning for years so rebuilding it without that in the design would be short term thinking as an understatement. How you do it, I'll let a planner do that.

The waggonway that runs from Earsdon Road all the way down to Percy Main would be easily enough converted back to rail or light rail. The section south of Middle Engine Lane already has track on it (the old Metro test track) as part of the museum. But that would only be accessible from the north. There's no way you'd ever see a west-south curve get built, the topography isn't well suited and a lot of expensive houses would need to be demolished.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On the rolling stock front, it does strike me as odd that we're seeing some of the TfW 150s go for scrap right now, when Northern could certainly use the extra units. Yes they're old and riddled with problems, but so are Northern's 150s - so a larger number of them would mean a larger pool to draw from, at least until Northern get their new fleet that is currently under tender.

At least you have the benefit of knowing that as this project is only commencing now, you have been spared the Northern Class 142 Pacer units as being seen as useful ideal extended life extensions on your line.

 

[hacman]

Another place which might be difficult to dual is Seaton Delaval station without a major rebuild as they've built the new platform on the old track bed and the bridge is quite close to the station with housing at the other side. It'll be very tight to get a second track in which can curve quick enough to get under the bridge without it being a very tight curve.

I know this is a bit speculation territory but if there was every a rebuild for Northumberland Park, then it needs to be designed to allow a line which heads South towards Cobalt and Silverlink. The line has been in long term planning for years so rebuilding it without that in the design would be short term thinking as an understatement. How you do it, I'll let a planner do that.

Agreed about Northumberland Park - it's a shame that the station we have there wasn't designed to allow 4 tracks/platforms in an integrated yet split configuration from the start, especially seeing as talk about re-opening the Northumberland Line has been ongoing since the late 90's. I suppose the issue with how you would integrate with a line to Silverlink is going to be the general topography of the trackbeds and local area. The easiest way I suppose would be to discount the idea of a line from the north linking to any possible Silverlink route entirely, so you'd just have a branch of the existing Metro route tightly curve to the south.

Yes - the way the trackbed has been fouled at Seaton Delaval is short-sighted - Network Rail seems to have a habit of doing this, especially with things like signalling cabinets and such.

The waggonway that runs from Earsdon Road all the way down to Percy Main would be easily enough converted back to rail or light rail. The section south of Middle Engine Lane already has track on it (the old Metro test track) as part of the museum. But that would only be accessible from the north. There's no way you'd ever see a west-south curve get built, the topography isn't well suited and a lot of expensive houses would need to be demolished.

Unless things have changed since I was last up that way, there is a vacant spot of land beside Earsdon Road that would allow a west-south curve - you would likely build it in a cutting with a new bridge for Earsdon Road to cross the line (benefit of avoiding a level-crossing!), and the line then rising to grade along the waggon way. Unless more stuff has been built there, the only property that would need to be affected is the one that houses the restaurant and take-out place (a structure whose absence would arguably improve the area!).

The curve would be tight and slow, but the 555s are well suited to that and would be the only traffic on the line.

Another interesting option would be to have the line continue north, connect with the Northumberland line at Backworth with an interchange station there, before branching off and approaching Killingworth from the north and terminating there. Or branch off at New Hartley, and terminate at Seaton Sluice. I'm quite sure neither of those options would hit the require cost-benefit metrics for consideration though.

At least you have the benefit of knowing that as this project is only commencing now, you have been spared the Northern Class 142 Pacer units as being seen as useful ideal extended life extensions on your line.

To be honest, whilst the 142s were utterly dire, their 143 and 144 counterparts would certainly be better than nothing if tidied up a little. And the 153 and 155s (the latter of which are still in service) are pretty much just pacers with bogies.

That said, D-Trains from Vivarail could have been a very good stop-gap, though sadly we all know how that turned out. And they would have run the risk of becoming another pacer-style "long-lived short-term solution".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That said, D-Trains from Vivarail could have been a very good stop-gap, though sadly we all know how that turned out. And they would have run the risk of becoming another pacer-style "long-lived short-term solution".

Indeed so, the Vivarail Borderlands line units seemingly have special operational dispensations granted that only see them work for half-day periods...

 

[03_179]

The cl.230s are probably the worst things I have ever travelled on when I did the Bedford to Bletchley line.
Even the cl.142s were better.

 

[edwin_m]

Not sure there'll be much demand for the interchange from Seaton Delaval for Northumberland Park personally. The 19 (Cobalt / North Shields / Silverlink), 57/57A (Whitley Bay) and X7 (Quorum) arguably serve the main places where people want to go in North Tyneside and are all direct. It'll all be direct Newcastle or beyond traffic imo.

Is there likely to be much demand for interchange the other way, between Ashington/Blyth and Benton/Gosforth/Jesmond?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Unless things have changed since I was last up that way, there is a vacant spot of land beside Earsdon Road that would allow a west-south curve

The patch of land would be way too small to fit any sort of curve in without either flattening the old houses on Station Road or the new houses on Edgefield and Emmerson Place. The scope of the earthworks to build the required cutting (as the coast line is in a cutting there) would be too great.

Never say never and all that, but I can’t see that ever getting off the drawing board.

 

[typefish]

Is there likely to be much demand for interchange the other way, between Ashington/Blyth and Benton/Gosforth/Jesmond?

It depends. If someone (such as myself) is coming from west of Regent Centre, it may just be a case of whatever is scheduled first, metro then X20 or metro then rail from Northumberland Park. I honestly don't see much difference in timings.

(X21 or X22 would basically be a useless service for me at this point)

 

[NorthOxonian]

Is there likely to be much demand for interchange the other way, between Ashington/Blyth and Benton/Gosforth/Jesmond?

The one issue there is that Gosforth is served fairly poorly by the Metro - from most destinations along the Northumberland Line you can get a direct bus to Gosforth High Street (or to Regent Centre) - the only exception is Seaton Delaval. Whereas a connection at Northumberland Park only gives access to the less convenient South Gosforth.

I don't know how it works regarding hospitals, but I suppose it's possible some people from the area might be sent to the Freeman leading to some demand for travel to Longbenton? The big civil service site there is I think being closed in the medium term but for now you might get some commuting.

 

[hacman]

The patch of land would be way too small to fit any sort of curve in without either flattening the old houses on Station Road or the new houses on Edgefield and Emmerson Place. The scope of the earthworks to build the required cutting (as the coast line is in a cutting there) would be too great.

Never say never and all that, but I can’t see that ever getting off the drawing board.

It would probably have to be a concrete box-type structure, which would work well as it could allow the space above to be developed similarly to some of the plots above the Manors curve and avoid needing large amounts of space on either side. The actual curve part of the Manors curve turns a not-too-different amount of directional change in a similar space.

That said, the compulsory purchase of a few houses certainly wouldn't be out of the question either for such a scheme. Though it may be acceptable to simply have the route terminate in a new station at Backworth or on Earsdon Road, with the service running from there to St. James via Silverlink.

Is there likely to be much demand for interchange the other way, between Ashington/Blyth and Benton/Gosforth/Jesmond?

Not really - the biggest generator of demand was likely to be HMRC Benton Park View and DWP Tyneview Park, both of which are relocating into the city centre over the next 5 years. These sites will likely be redeveloped as housing.

The other major employment sites in the area would be Regent Centre, Quorum Business Park and Freeman Hospital. There are not really any major leisure or education destinations. There is the large industrial estate at Benton Square, but despite its size, it doesn't employ that many people as it is low density.

The majority of interchange traffic will come from people who want a service that drops them at the north end of the city centre.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The patch of land would be way too small to fit any sort of curve in without either flattening the old houses on Station Road or the new houses on Edgefield and Emmerson Place. The scope of the earthworks to build the required cutting (as the coast line is in a cutting there) would be too great.

Well said. Has the matter referred-to ever been a matter upon which the residents of those new properties have ever been notified of the possible likelihood of such a matter when their solicitor was carrying out searches prior to completion of contract exchange? With regards to the owners of the older properties, has this matter ever been something that their elected councillors have discussed with them?

 

[nerdowell]

Posting this here rather than the Infrastructure thread as its just the new timetable with Newsham going online on the 17th.


Northumberland Line Timetable | March 2025