Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

[BrianW]

WebTAG here: (Theres lots of it and then data book is the key bit)

Transport analysis guidance

Transport analysis guidance (TAG) provides information on the role of transport modelling and appraisal.

www.gov.uk

Marking of bids - not published

Assessment criteria ‘adjusted’: only by direction of the Secretary of State. This is a very rare event.

Thank you Bald Rick- when I have a couple of spare hours/days/ ... I'll read on- it's actually very informative, so thank you.
You will have detected my general scepticism perhaps but I do recognise that choices for investment have to be made and substantiated somehow.
In what I have read there I see a lot of room for how a range of 'issues' regarding 'policy context' may be seen, and assessed.
Do those bidding have access to the marking? After all they will have invested time, money and emotional energy in preparing a submission; arguably they need to know in order to do better next time.
Does 'Freedom of Information' apply?
Having said which I do have concerns about the ability of folk to object to decisions made on our behalf by those elected so to do, and at our expense in increased costs and delayed delivery.
Moving on ...

 

[snowball]

The Borders Railway as I understand it suffers from issues of overcrowding because passenger numbers were underestimated in the original business case, even with 5 or 6 car trains and it only ends in the middle of nowhere because the English DfT will not allow it to be extended to its correct terminus of Carlisle, which would allow it to be used for LNER Tyne Valley diversions or even have a regular service to England, increasing efficiency on both the WCML and ECML when Newcastle - Edinburgh or Carlisle/Carstairs - Edinburgh or even Glasgow is closed.

In what way is the DfT not allowing the Borders Railway to be extended to Carlisle? Isn't it rather that the monetarised benefits would be negligible and the cost vast, and 90% of it would fall on the Scottish government?

 

[Neptune]

In what way is the DfT not allowing the Borders Railway to be extended to Carlisle? Isn't it rather that the monetarised benefits would be negligible and the cost vast, and 90% of it would fall on the Scottish government?

The Borders Railway has been done to death on here so the poster either hasn’t read the threads or has chosen to ignore them to justify their argument.

Remember, the letters B.C & R in that order are the most hated letters of those that want all those loss making lines in the 60’s reopened.

 

[bramling]

In what way is the DfT not allowing the Borders Railway to be extended to Carlisle? Isn't it rather that the monetarised benefits would be negligible and the cost vast, and 90% of it would fall on the Scottish government?

Yes I don't quite get the point about going onwards to Carlisle, when Borders was justified primarily on providing a link to Edinburgh. I can well see an argument in extending this down to Hawick, but I can't so easily see why lots of people would suddenly want to reach Carlisle. That said, I'd love to see it re-opened, just not sure whether it's an effective use of our tax to pay for it!

 

[70014IronDuke]

The Borders Railway as I understand it suffers from issues of overcrowding because passenger numbers were underestimated in the original business case, even with 5 or 6 car trains and it only ends in the middle of nowhere because the English DfT will not allow it to be extended to its correct terminus of Carlisle, which would allow it to be used for LNER Tyne Valley diversions or even have a regular service to England, increasing efficiency on both the WCML and ECML when Newcastle - Edinburgh or Carlisle/Carstairs - Edinburgh or even Glasgow is closed.

This sounds like pub talk several whiskies after the SNP's AGM, and even then by the more extremist members.

And there are large gold deposits under Riccarton Jcn too, but the Civil Service in London are keeping details secret for fear that their exploitation will lead to Scottish independence.

I'm not even sure that the Borders trains are overcrowded. But it is true that ideally, it should have gone a mile or two more to server Melrose better, but the cost was deemed too high for the extra return.

As others have noted, an economic assessment of reopening the Ashington branch reveals a far better case for the Northumberland line than that of the Borders.

 

[BrianW]

Yes I don't quite get the point about going onwards to Carlisle, when Borders was justified primarily on providing a link to Edinburgh. I can well see an argument in extending this down to Hawick, but I can't so easily see why lots of people would suddenly want to reach Carlisle. That said, I'd love to see it re-opened, just not sure whether it's an effective use of our tax to pay for it!

Agreeing. Finding it hard to see why the Scottish Government would want to support'investment'expenditure to help Scots reach England more directly
Whereas it is very possible to see why Northumberland might be hoped to be grateful for expenditure in the 'red wall' area, as they were for the attention of Quintin Hogg and Ernie Marples when they had 'never had it so good'. Happy daze ...

 

[Killingworth]

Wow, the days when Hailsham came ringing his hand bell. Another age.

I'm waiting for someone to propose linking the Borders line down the North Tyne and Bellingham to Hexham and Newcastle. Lots of timber to take from in the Kielder Forest and and even more engineering and financial challenges to be debated.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is a (non-speculative) infrastructure thread to discuss Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

Thanks

 

[Bald Rick]

it only ends in the middle of nowhere because the English DfT will not allow it to be extended to its correct terminus of Carlisle

Transport Scotland won’t allow it to be extended from ‘the middle of nowhere’ either.

Do those bidding have access to the marking?

yes, because they are doing it themselves.

of course they might get it wrong…

 

[Pinza-C55]

I'm afraid that this really isn't true. Several newly introduced services since 1990 have performed poorly e.g. Wakefield to Knottingley, Aylesbury to Aylesbury Vale Parkway or Glasgow to Maryhill. Others have outperformed expectations but had BCRs of substantially less than 1 at the time of their authorisation e.g. Borders Railway.

I did say "recent" and I would hardly call 32 years ago recent.

 

[507020]

I did say "recent" and I would hardly call 32 years ago recent.

And how much better would Aylesbury Vale Parkway perform with northbound services to Calvert, Bletchley and Milton Keynes Central? Particularly recently with WCML services terminating no further south than Milton Keynes Central, a direct service to London via Aylesbury Vale Parkway would be well used. There is an argument over whether it is the GCML i.e. a main line, or a branch line in the middle of nowhere.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is a (non-speculative) infrastructure thread to discuss Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

Thanks

 

[Starmill]

I did say "recent" and I would hardly call 32 years ago recent.

It is recent compared with the Beeching cuts. In addition, you claimed thay rail travel "recently" has been buoyant, when in fact this description isn't really widely true either in the past two years.

You may go on to claim that by "recent" what you actually meant was 2010 - 2019, but I probably wouldn't believe that either because if that's what you'd meant you would have said so, and even then the lines I named weren't performing well during that period (indeed it's when the Borders Railway opened). The Northumberland line is going ahead because it is unlike Wakefield to Knottingley, not because it is like it.

 

[507020]

It is recent compared with the Beeching cuts. In addition, you claimed thay rail travel "recently" has been buoyant, when in fact this description isn't really widely true either in the past two years.

You may go on to claim that by "recent" what you actually meant was 2010 - 2019, but I probably wouldn't believe that either because if that's what you'd meant you would have said so, and even then the lines I named weren't performing well during that period (indeed it's when the Borders Railway opened). The Northumberland line is going ahead because it is unlike Wakefield to Knottingley, not because it is like it.

"The Reshaping of British Railways" was 1963, which was 59 years ago, so 1990 is closer to Beeching than the present day. Rail travel has been more bouyant since coming out of lockdown than we were told it would be beforehand.

 

[Starmill]

"The Reshaping of British Railways" was 1963, which was 59 years ago, so 1990 is closer to Beeching than the present day. Rail travel has been more bouyant since coming out of lockdown than we were told it would be beforehand.

Indeed if the start of 1990 were when all of these things happened but they weren't. They've all happened closer to today than 1963. One of them was five years ago. Please do stop trying to split hairs - it makes it sound as if you've not got any rational points left to make.

The original point being made was that any old railway that reopened would do better than predicted. This is most certainly not true.

 

[dan4291]

I'm sure it says in this thread somewhere, but what's the target date for running passenger services on the Northumberland line?

 

[pdeaves]

I'm sure it says in this thread somewhere, but what's the target date for running passenger services on the Northumberland line?

Currently, the full route is expected to open in December 2023. Things could change, though.

 

[D821]

How long is the route in total?

 

[swt_passenger]

How long is the route in total?

About 15 miles from the junction with the ECML. Add about 4 miles on the main line.

 

[43066]

In addition, you claimed thay rail travel "recently" has been buoyant, when in fact this description isn't really widely true either in the past two years.

I wonder why…

 

[Pinza-C55]

It is recent compared with the Beeching cuts. In addition, you claimed thay rail travel "recently" has been buoyant, when in fact this description isn't really widely true either in the past two years.

You may go on to claim that by "recent" what you actually meant was 2010 - 2019, but I probably wouldn't believe that either because if that's what you'd meant you would have said so, and even then the lines I named weren't performing well during that period (indeed it's when the Borders Railway opened). The Northumberland line is going ahead because it is unlike Wakefield to Knottingley, not because it is like it.

That seems to imply that I am lying in some way ? I express my opinions here, as do others. I know there seems to be a strand of opinion on here that Beeching was justified but I don't share that opinion. My opinion that Beeching wasn't justified probably won't stand up to rigorous cross examination but then I don't care.
Bearing in mind the warning on speculation, I will say no more on this subject.

 

[Rick1984]

Is the any plans to connect the section to Morpeth in the future?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is the any plans to connect the section to Morpeth in the future?

No, nothings ever been mentioned about a passenger service to Morpeth in the various documents supporting this proposal, the infrastructure is only being modified slightly so as to allow a 2 tph service to Ashington plus freight.

The track does already exist though, as you’re probably already aware.

 

[Killingworth]

No, nothings ever been mentioned about a passenger service to Morpeth in the various documents supporting this proposal, the infrastructure is only being modified slightly so as to allow a 2 tph service to Ashington plus freight.

The track does already exist though, as you’re probably already aware.

Very much in mind for the future though.

 

[507020]

The original point being made was that any old railway that reopened would do better than predicted. This is most certainly not true.

It was more a point that many reopening proposals seem to seriously underestimate potential passenger numbers.

Currently, the full route is expected to open in December 2023. Things could change, though.

I am hoping for some time around November-December 2023, the same time of year as Okehampton. With the small railway projects in London mentioned upthread opening this year, that very much satisfies my desire for mileage to be added to the passenger network in each successive year. I believe there is a new passenger service scheduled for a goods line in Birmingham in the new timetable next week, with new stations to follow shortly afterwards.

Is the any plans to connect the section to Morpeth in the future?

I have seen news articles about a press event where a train ran to Morpeth. Perhaps if they were to build a bypass of smaller stations on the ECML, trains could run via Blyth to Morpeth and beyond. Rather than a standalone reopening proposal, there needs to be some progression in mind for which new services could follow if the line is successful.

 

[Starmill]

It was more a point that many reopening proposals seem to seriously underestimate potential passenger numbers.

Again, this is incorrect. But in the interest of trying to stay on topic as has been asked, this isn't the place to take a deep dive into that point.

I am hoping for some time around November-December 2023, the same time as Okehampton.

It's very unlikely that the work will be finished in time for December 2023. We have not yet heard the decision from the Secretary of State.

 

[507020]

It's very unlikely that the work will be finished in time for December 2023. We have not yet heard the decision from the Secretary of State.

I thought it was Portishead we hadn’t heard the decision for

 

[The exile]

I am hoping for some time around November-December 2023, the same time as Okehampton. With the small railway projects in London mentioned upthread opening this year,

This is, however, of a vastly different scale of magnitude to Okehampton, surely?
I assume that the reference to “small railway projects in London” is meant ironically…

I thought it was Portishead we hadn’t heard the decision for

That one is certainly still outstanding ( after how many years?), but then it’s not in the north, so fails to tick at least one box!

 

[swt_passenger]

This is, however, of a vastly different scale of magnitude to Okehampton, surely?

A point made clearly a few days ago, I think. Pretending this project‘s scope is similar to Okehampton is ridiculous.

 

[507020]

This is, however, of a vastly different scale of magnitude to Okehampton, surely?
I assume that the reference to “small railway projects in London” is meant ironically…

“Small railway projects in London” is meant ironically, but I meant the same time as year for the reopening as Okehampton.

A point made clearly a few days ago, I think. Pretending this project‘s scope is similar to Okehampton is ridiculous.

I’m not expecting it to be finished faster than Okehampton, but it might be finished at the same time of year (November/December)

That one is certainly still outstanding ( after how many years?)

I have just looked at the Portishead thread and the DfT’s response to the urgency seems to be some sort of joke…