Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

[david1212]

That's equivalent to less than 2.4% a year, which suggests you were looking at general inflation. Construction industry inflation is always much higher, but I don't know a figure.

Construction inflation indices are here:

Construction output price indices - Office for National Statistics

Construction Output Price Indices (OPIs) from January 2014 to December 2023, UK. Summary.

www.ons.gov.uk

I was not aware generally construction inflation was significantly higher than general inflation. While house prices have increased significantly more there is a big difference between the estate agent price and the insurance rebuilding price.

There’s also been “standards inflation” for new construction stations. Some of the 1990s new station quality was pretty hopeless.

Indeed a valid point.

What I would like to see is a cost comparison for exactly the same work between 1991, when it would have been carried out or at least managed by British Rail, and 2021, with fragementation between TOC's, Network Rail and maybe others. In light of the first point further the difference between the increase for general construction e.g. houses, offices and railway stations and infrastructure.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Does 40 m enough for six new stations? The recently opened two-platform station all exceed 10 million.

I think the access to the infrastructure will bring the price down a lot. Not intensively used with opportunities for long day time line blocks I would imagine.

If that keeps the programme down it will keep the costs down.

 

[Swanley 59]

Has there been any indication of what sort of journey time we are looking at for the projected Ashington - Newcastle service?

As a freight-only line I guess the current maximum speed is 40 MPH, but with many severe restrictions well below this figure. Nevertheless, I'd like to think that a end-to-end journey time of 40 mins should be possible?

It's a very long time since I've done the journey by bus, but I seem to recall it taking 50 mins - 1 hour off-peak. And a lot longer than that in the rush hour.

 

[class26]

Has there been any indication of what sort of journey time we are looking at for the projected Ashington - Newcastle service?

As a freight-only line I guess the current maximum speed is 40 MPH, but with many severe restrictions well below this figure. Nevertheless, I'd like to think that a end-to-end journey time of 40 mins should be possible?

It's a very long time since I've done the journey by bus, but I seem to recall it taking 50 mins - 1 hour off-peak. And a lot longer than that in the rush hour.

According to Modern Railways it will be 35 minutes, they quote the bus journey at 60 minutes

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are all the projected railway stations within easy reach of the communities they are said to serve?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are all the projected railway stations within easy reach of the communities they are said to serve?

“Blyth Bebside“ (one station#) and “Newsham” are both on the far western side of Blyth, which originally had its own branch and a more central station. I think all the rest are reasonably well positioned with respect to their named places.

(# A BBC story mistakenly read as though Blyth and Bebside were separate stations.)

 

[Swanley 59]

According to Modern Railways it will be 35 minutes, they quote the bus journey at 60 minutes

Thank you. That's quite encouraging. Years ago, when reopening was first mooted, BR quoted 50 minutes. I don't think they were interested!

 

[androdas]

Ashington is very central to the town as the railway bisects it and is being built in the same location as the original (Well technically the old goods yard). Bedlington is not near to the town of Bedlington itself but Bedlington has never had a central station, the original station was built someway from the town in a settlement originally called Sleekburn which grew due to the railway to join Bedlington and is now known as Bedlington Station even though there has not been a station there for the best part of 60 years. Blyth was always served, at least by passenger trains, by a terminus due to its geography surrounded by the North Sea and Port of Blyth. Bebside and Newsham are on the outskirts and when they closed would have been in semi rural settings but Blyth has since grown out to them, Seaton Delaval is also not right in the middle of the settlement but is in an area of housing growth as is Northumberland Park which is a commuter suburb for Newcastle and also an interchange for the Metro. I would say the two Blyth stations will be more Park and Ride types with the others all within walking distance of a good amount of people.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thank you. That's quite encouraging. Years ago, when reopening was first mooted, BR quoted 50 minutes. I don't think they were interested!

For “belt and braces”, the Northumberland council summary linked in post #58 also quotes 35 mins.

 

[MarkLong]

For “belt and braces”, the Northumberland council summary linked in post #58 also quotes 35 mins.

So what is the new maximum speed after reopening?

 

[swt_passenger]

So what is the new maximum speed after reopening?

I saw a mention of just a 50 mph maximum in one of the scoping reports, but they weren’t really going into much detail. They did say it was going to be limited because of tight curves, existing level crossings etc etc...

 

[edwin_m]

The route curves by close to 90 degrees in no less than four places, some of which are tight enough to limit speed. This is because it was originally put together by joining together various older routes, some of which were old wagonways bringing coal down to the Tyne.

 

[Killingworth]

Saturday 12th June, The Tynesider, an opportunity to travel much of the line, although this train goes to Morpeth and not Ashington.

"This excursion provides a rare opportunity to travel by special train from the North Lincolnshire area to Tyneside. The route is via the East Coast Main Line through York. Passengers have the option of spending time in Newcastle-upon-Tyne or staying on the train to travel over the Blyth & Tyne Railway line to Morpeth, a route no longer used by passenger services. Our train will be steam hauled from Cleethorpes to Newcastle and Morpeth and then back to York."

See; https://www.railwaytouring.net/the-tynesider

Starts from Cleethorpes, last pick up York.

 

[MarkLong]

I saw a mention of just a 50 mph maximum in one of the scoping reports, but they weren’t really going into much detail. They did say it was going to be limited because of tight curves, existing level crossings etc etc...

Given upgrading the route is much cheaper if the route does not have passenger service yet, they should consider upgrading this line to a higher standard. it is unreasonable to build a railway in the 2020s with 1920s top speed.

 

[Roast Veg]

Given upgrading the route is much cheaper if the route does not have passenger service yet, they should consider upgrading this line to a higher standard. it is unreasonable to build a railway in the 2020s with 1920s top speed.

I think "much cheaper" might be a bit of an overstatement when it comes to a local line running through some rather tight formations through towns that would probably appreciate not being bulldozed for their own convenience.

Take a look at the consultation documents.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I think "much cheaper" might be a bit of an overstatement when it comes to a local line running through some rather tight formations through towns that would probably appreciate not being bulldozed for their own convenience.

But are the four 90 degree bends in built-up areas? I don't know the route but there's a low-quality YouTube video which shows tight curves in green fields.

 

[Bald Rick]

But are the four 90 degree bends in built-up areas? I don't know the route but there's a low-quality YouTube video which shows tight curves in green fields.

Have a look at the map. Building in the way. And, not insignificantly, if you go outside the fence you’d need an order under the Transport & Works Act. Now there’s one needed anyway, but that’s fairly straightforward for level crossings and stations. It would complicate the whole process if you were knocking down houses to increase speed by a few mph to save a few seconds.

And the overriding objective for this project is to have it open before April 2024.

 

[Killingworth]

The route curves by close to 90 degrees in no less than four places, some of which are tight enough to limit speed. This is because it was originally put together by joining together various older routes, some of which were old wagonways bringing coal down to the Tyne.

The effects may be rather exaggerated.

The bend immediately after leaving Northumberland Park is probably not going to limit speeds greatly as trains wouldn't be going fast near the station anyway. Same goes in Ashington. The Seaton Delaval curve will also be near a station.

The really tight bend is at New Hartley (old Hartley Junction on the line to Monkseaton) see attached aerial view from Google Maps. It too is near any Seaton Delaval station so impact may not be as great as implied.

 

[swt_passenger]

With 6 stations in about 12 miles. (Northumberland Park to Ashington section) It’s getting down towards acceleration being more important than top speed isn’t it?

 

[hwl]

With 6 stations in about 12 miles. (Northumberland Park to Ashington section) It’s getting down towards acceleration being more important than top speed isn’t it?

Yep, you won't get much over 50 (and only for 10s-15s max) with an older DMU on those station spacings.

 

[danielnez1]

Are all the projected railway stations within easy reach of the communities they are said to serve?

Sadly no, for example Seaton Delaval station is supposed to serve the whole of Seaton Valley, including Seghill (the line runs through more or less the middle of the village). Privately the officer behind the project have admitted that people from the likes of Seghill won't likely use/benefit from the re-opening, due to the nearest station being too far away, and forcing potential users to backtrack up the line.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sadly no, for example Seaton Delaval station is supposed to serve the whole of Seaton Valley, including Seghill (the line runs through more or less the middle of the village). Privately the officer behind the project have admitted that people from the likes of Seghill won't likely use/benefit from the re-opening, due to the nearest station being too far away, and forcing potential users to backtrack up the line.

But that’s really no different to any reopening on an extant route. There’s always going to be a few areas missed by the project, as the area presumably developed without consideration of future reopening. Or alternatively you provide so many stations it impacts badly on line speed for everyone.

 

[MarkLong]

Yep, you won't get much over 50 (and only for 10s-15s max) with an older DMU on those station spacings.

But we need to consider the bigger scope and the longer term, the route might some day used for some long-distance diversion route. Also, have the potential for a fast freight train to use this section.

 

[swt_passenger]

But we need to consider the bigger scope and the longer term, the route might some day used for some long-distance diversion route. Also, have the potential for a fast freight train to use this section.

I thought it already can be used as a diversion route, which is presumably why railtours still use it without any problem...

 

[MarkLong]

I think "much cheaper" might be a bit of an overstatement when it comes to a local line running through some rather tight formations through towns that would probably appreciate not being bulldozed for their own convenience.

Take a look at the consultation documents.

In many East Asian counties, the lowest standard for new railway or upgraded is about 75 mph. The higher building standard made future upgrades cheaper, also open new opportunities for future fast service. When you planning infrastructures, think about the future. And it is even worse to build a diesel railway line, better to planning electrification on it.

In Sum, in 2020's UK, they build a 1950's diesel line with 1920's top speed. It is very sad for a country that invented the railway.

I thought it already can be used as a diversion route, which is presumably why railtours still use it without any problem...

Then it is even more necessary to build it in a higher standard, not the 50 mph top speed.

 

[edwin_m]

But we need to consider the bigger scope and the longer term, the route might some day used for some long-distance diversion route. Also, have the potential for a fast freight train to use this section.

With the number of stations planned, freight and diversions wouldn't have much chance to build up any speed before catching up a passenger train.

 

[zwk500]

But we need to consider the bigger scope and the longer term, the route might some day used for some long-distance diversion route. Also, have the potential for a fast freight train to use this section.

Fast freight is only going to be relevant when running between 100mph+ trains. The only time anything will divert over it will be if it's the only way through, so it's not really necessary to massively blow the business case on speccing a higher speed for the once in a blue moon event. Given freight is limited to 75mph (and in practice doesn't get anywhere near that) it'll fit neatly into the all-stations service tbh.

With modern DMUs on all-stations and freight, a target ruling linespeed of 75mph is sensible. Any diverts will just accept the hit. In order to get this linespeed, 90mph where possible and lower restrictions on tight corners is probably as far as the budget will stretch while still being affordable.

I thought it already can be used as a diversion route, which is presumably why railtours still use it without any problem...

It can, but it is so slow and low-capacity trains won't use it other than as an absolute last resort. And you need a diesel engine onboard to get through.

In Sum, in 2020's UK, they build a 1950's diesel line with 1920's top speed. It is very sad for a country that invented the railway.

No, we're taking a 1900s railway and raising it to an appropriate standard within 2020's budgets.

 

[MarkLong]

With the number of stations planned, freight and diversions wouldn't have much chance to build up any speed before catching up a passenger train.

Yes, that is true, but in infrastructure planning, we always planning in advance not legging behind, upgrading in a single time is cheaper than planning twice.

Fast freight is only going to be relevant when running between 100mph+ trains. The only time anything will divert over it will be if it's the only way through, so it's not really necessary to massively blow the business case on speccing a higher speed for the once in a blue moon event. Given freight is limited to 75mph (and in practice doesn't get anywhere near that) it'll fit neatly into the all-stations service tbh.

With modern DMUs on all-stations and freight, a target ruling linespeed of 75mph is sensible. Any diverts will just accept the hit. In order to get this linespeed, 90mph where possible and lower restrictions on tight corners is probably as far as the budget will stretch while still being affordable.


It can, but it is so slow and low-capacity trains won't use it other than as an absolute last resort. And you need a diesel engine onboard to get through.


No, we're taking a 1900s railway and raising it to an appropriate standard within 2020's budgets.

In 2020s railway is electrified, with proper ETCS signal, and built for much higher speed. A limited budget sounds wise, but in a longer time you will waste more money to upgrade them.

 

[ainsworth74]

Do you want the line reopened or not? I quite agree in an ideal world we'd thrown the kitchen sink at any re-opening so that it was electrified, had upgraded signalling, higher linespeeds, etc etc. But we don't live in that world. If you went to the DfT (read: the Treasury) with a proposal to do all that work and the price tag attached they'd laugh at you and tell you to jog on. We'd therefore have no passenger railway at all. That's just the cold reality. Should it be the case? Probably not but wishing hard about it won't make that change. Until the Government decide that they want to significantly increase the spending on the railway (and considering that they already spend eyewatering sums of money and must be beginning to wonder just what on earth they actually get for that cash this seems unlikely) we have to live with the world as we find it.

 

[MarkLong]

Do you want the line reopened or not? I quite agree in an ideal world we'd thrown the kitchen sink at any re-opening so that it was electrified, had upgraded signalling, higher linespeeds, etc etc. But we don't live in that world. If you went to the DfT (read: the Treasury) with a proposal to do all that work and the price tag attached they'd laugh at you and tell you to jog on. We'd therefore have no passenger railway at all. That's just the cold reality. Should it be the case? Probably not but wishing hard about it won't make that change. Until the Government decide that they want to significantly increase the spending on the railway (and considering that they already spend eyewatering sums of money and must be beginning to wonder just what on earth they actually get for that cash this seems unlikely) we have to live with the world as we find it.

I want the line to reopen. But the current approach is sub-optimal. As a huge rail fan from East Asia whose county build railways at an ever imagined speed. The current UK railway industry is stretched and failed to dream big. Because the government failed to optimized the investment, the industry lack capacity, and the funding modal is not suitable for massive rail upgrading.

Sending some people to study in Japan about how to properly planning new lines, in Hong Kong to learn about how the railway can be funded, in South Korea to learn how incrementally service can be improved.

By the way, this 50mph 1920 railway's cost per mile is on par with Korea's 180 mph high-speed rail line...