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Not able to buy returns on trains, only singles?

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barnesg

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I was told by a conductor today that I was unable to buy a return on a train, and instead would have to buy two singles (which he was willing to sell me) I produced 5 other return tickets that I'd bought on the train but was told all these people were wrong to do this.

Who is correct?
 
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gordonthemoron

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I thought you could only buy singles, if you had an opportunity to purchase a ticket before borading, i.e. the ticket office was open. Otherwise you should be able to buy any ticket onboard
 

John @ home

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Welcome to the forum, barnesg!
I was told by a conductor today that I was unable to buy a return on a train, and instead would have to buy two singles
From which station? To which station? Returning on the same day or on a later day?

Sorry, the British railway ticketing system is complex and it's not possible to answer your question without knowing the answer to these questions.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I have been sold return tickets on trains a number of times.

As far as I understood it; you cannot buy discounted tickets on trains if the ticket office was closed, not returs.
 

tony_mac

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As the return tickets actually exist, I can only assume that this is where the guard believes that there was an opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding, and is only prepared to sell a full-price ticket.

In this case, either the guard has misunderstood the rules and has interpreted that as full-price single, or there is no full-price return for that journey and so he is only offering singles.

So, yes, we would need to know the stations involved, and if it was a day return, to find out whether a full-price return actually exists.
 

First class

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NRCoC said:
2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.
If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22,
30, 35 and 39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty
Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey.

As above: if you travel in a train, without a ticket, you will be liable to pay the full single fare.

He may well have only charged you the Anytime Single because it would have been cheaper for you to buy a different type of ticket (Cheap Day Sgl) etc, for the return.

You cannot board a train without a valid ticket unless no facilities exist at the station you board at, (e.g. no self service machine, no booking office etc).

link: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
 

b0b

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Note the bottom of section 2:
For the purposes of this Condition, and Conditions 4, 39 and 41, “full single fare or full return fare” means the highest priced single or (if requested by the passenger) return fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making.
 

yorkie

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but we need to know the journey. eg. you cannot officially get a period ('open') return york - doncaster on board...
 

Mojo

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So what is the "full...return fare" then?

Is it the highest priced standard class return ticket? Or is it always an Anytime return?

There are cases where no Anytime return exists, because the Off-peak is valid at any time (eg. Hereford to Bristol). There are also cases where the Anytime is cheaper than the Off-peak (eg. York to Doncaster).
 

tony_mac

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The NRCoC seems to say that, if you request a return fare, you should be given the highest-priced return available - it doesn't say it has to be an anytime fare, or even that it must be more expensive than the highest-priced single available (although I can't find an example of that!).

I'm sure that isn't what it is meant to say, but.......
 

glynn80

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At the bottom of Condition 2 "Requirement to hold a ticket", it states the following:

FRPP said:
For the purposes of this Condition, and Conditions 4, 39 and 41, “full single fare or full return fare” means the highest priced single or (if requested by the passenger) return fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making.

So if there was no SOR/FOR available then the highest priced alternative would be applicable whether that be an SDR, FDR, SVR or whatever.
 

yorkie

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Hmm... Would East Coast issue a SVR (Off Peak Return) for a journey where it was the highest priced return (and valid on any scheduled train) but a SDR and SDS was also available, but no SOR? This is the case for shorter distance journeys, for example:
York-Doncaster
SVR £19.30
SSR £18.60
SDR £14.30
CDR £11.70
SDS £11.60

While there is no doubt you can buy the SDS or SDR on board, can you buy the SVR on board?
 

janb

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Did it used to be just a single available on board? Or has the wording always been "single or return"?

The problem with selling "full priced return" on board is that between stations where only a SDS and SDR are available it provides no penalty to attempted fare evasion, whereas selling a single each direction would.
 

glynn80

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Did it used to be just a single available on board? Or has the wording always been "single or return"?

Was certainly "Single or Return" in the NRCoC prior to the 2009 and 2006 releases:

NRCoC pre 2006 said:
7. If you travel without a valid ticket

If you travel on a train without a valid ticket, you will be liable to pay the full single or return fare for the journey you have made or want to make. However, you will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms which would otherwise apply.

The pre 2006 version was around for around 7 years IIRC.
 

b0b

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Did it used to be just a single available on board? Or has the wording always been "single or return"?

The problem with selling "full priced return" on board is that between stations where only a SDS and SDR are available it provides no penalty to attempted fare evasion, whereas selling a single each direction would.

A return could consist of 2 SOS/SDS's though, if someone wants to get chippy about it. It doesn't say that it has to be one ticket...
 

yorkie

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A return could consist of 2 SOS/SDS's though, if someone wants to get chippy about it. It doesn't say that it has to be one ticket...
That's 2 singles. If anyone argued that, I'd laugh.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The problem with selling "full priced return" on board is that between stations where only a SDS and SDR are available it provides no penalty to attempted fare evasion, whereas selling a single each direction would.
Attempted fare evasion? A penalty for that can only be issued through the courts. If you suspect someone of fare evasion then fill in an MG11.
 

janb

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Attempted fare evasion? A penalty for that can only be issued through the courts. If you suspect someone of fare evasion then fill in an MG11.

OK, let me put it this way,

"The problem with selling "full priced return" on board is that between stations where only a SDS and SDR are available it provides no penalty to those who board the train at a staffed station without a ticket hoping to get away without paying, whereas selling a single in each direction would."

Call that civil debt, call it fare evasion, call it just plain taking the proverbial, call it what you like.
 

yorkie

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Ahh, it becomes clear. Some staff are incorrectly refusing to issue returns, as a form of punishment, despite not being authorised to do so. They know they have absolutely no evidence of any crime, and they think they can get away with enforcing a rule that they invented on some moral grounds of fighting fare evasion, where someone can be considered 'guilty' by the guard and given a punishment.

I suggest the OP writes to the TOC and hopefully disciplinary action will be taken against the guard, as he was clearly in the wrong.

Perhaps such guards should be identified so that in shops they can not be given any discount (just in case they were intending not to pay), and any other service they pay for should be charged at full price, unless they pay in advance as there is always that risk that they may be intending not to pay.;) Of course, they'd be up in arms if anyone suggested they may refuse to pay for something with no evidence. Oh no, that's different....
 

Dolive22

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Technically if you board a train at a station where you can buy a ticket without having bought a ticket you commit an offence. So if someone says they boarded at a station where they could have got a ticket and they don't have a ticket that is evidence they comitted a crime.

Of course in many cases no charges are brought, but a crime has still been comitted.

Having said that, the proper way to deal with a byelaws offence is at the magistrates court following the laying of an information, not by refusing to sell tickets. If you can prove they did that you nail them. I do so hate vigilantes, so self rightous, so hypocritical.
 

yorkie

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Technically if you board a train at a station where you can buy a ticket without having bought a ticket you commit an offence. So if someone says they boarded at a station where they could have got a ticket and they don't have a ticket that is evidence they comitted a crime.

Of course in many cases no charges are brought, but a crime has still been comitted.
If that was really true then just about everyone who has travelled by rail has committed a crime. It's an old law that really should be re-worded, but it does say something like 'unless there is a notice to say you can buy on board' such a notice is actually in the NCoC:-

National Conditions of Carriage said:
If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22,
30, 35 and 39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special
terms unless....

There is no question that you can buy a SOS, SDS, SOR, SDR on board and that no offence is being committed.

I think it is a matter of debate as to whether or not you could buy a SVR on board, where the SVR is higher priced than the SDR and there is no SOR. I'd assumed the answer was "no" from reading the NCoC, as I thought "full fare" meant an Anytime. However the FRPP says that the "highest priced" return can be sold. I'd like to see someone try buying an SVR on board East Coast (for a flow where it is the highest priced return ticket) as a test case some time.
 

142094

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However, when companies such as Grand Central and Hull Trains allow you to board at staffed stations and still get cheaper tickets, no wonder things like this happen.
 

janb

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Ahh, it becomes clear. Some staff are incorrectly refusing to issue returns, as a form of punishment, despite not being authorised to do so. They know they have absolutely no evidence of any crime, and they think they can get away with enforcing a rule that they invented on some moral grounds of fighting fare evasion, where someone can be considered 'guilty' by the guard and given a punishment.

I suggest the OP writes to the TOC and hopefully disciplinary action will be taken against the guard, as he was clearly in the wrong.

Well so you think, we don't actually know what happened.

Just because I pointed out what is IMHO a "flaw"/"loophole" with the NCoC/pricing models doesn't mean it has any relation to this incident.

Perhaps you are under the mistaken impression I am in a guard, I am neither that or an RPI. Just someone giving an opinion about a rule that in some instances doesn't reward honest customers, or penalise those who boarded without a ticket.

Perhaps such guards should be identified so that in shops they can not be given any discount (just in case they were intending not to pay), and any other service they pay for should be charged at full price, unless they pay in advance as there is always that risk that they may be intending not to pay.;) Of course, they'd be up in arms if anyone suggested they may refuse to pay for something with no evidence. Oh no, that's different....

Well if they tried to walk out the door without paying I'm sure they wouldn't expect a discount.

Its a very strange world we live in where most people would regard shoplifting as wrong, and yet plenty of people see getting away without paying for a train journey as acceptable.

Surely even customers champion Yorkie isn't going to defend those who walk past a manned ticket office and board without a ticket, is he? Or does the vehement dislike of railway staff run so deep that even that is acceptable?
 

Greenback

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But the point is that the assumption that anyone who boards a train without having bought a ticket is evading a fare in some way is wrong.

You have stated you don't agree with a rule because it doesn;t 'penalise those who boarded without a ticket'. Why should someone be penalised for not buying a ticket when:

The touch screen on the TVM is broken and you can't actually bring up the ticket type or destination that you want to buy.
The TVM won't take your £20 note.
Two people are taking 20 mins to buy an Advance return - your train is due and you arrived at the station 15 minutes ago.
You want to see if there's room for your bicycle before buying a ticket.

The first three situations happened to me within the last three months. I resent the assumption that I am trying to evade my fare in some way, and I woudl resent any member of staff accusing me of this. Fortunately, it doesn't happen as the on train staff and barrier staff around here are very friendly, professional, non judgemental and will happily sell you any ticket on the train.

If you were a guard Janb, would you question me when I asked to buy a ticket on board? Would you accept my explanation that the TVM screen was not working? What you argue with the other (unconencted) person who wasn't able to buy a ticket at the same time? Would you assume we were both trying to 'get away with it'? Would you try to penalise us for not having a ticket?

I don't mean to sound nasty, but it will probably come across nastier than I intended! I'm simply trying to point out that things are not cut and dried!
 

jon0844

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An RPI should be able to check if a ticket office was open. Ticket machines SHOULD report faults automatically that can be verified. The problem with the touchscreen issue is that it can stop small parts of the screen responding (e.g. the edges or one side) and isn't likely to be detected by the machine. By it not detecting the fault and reporting it, nobody will be sent out to fix it and an RPI doing checks will conclude it must be working fine - so now it is your word against theirs.
 

Greenback

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We don't have RPI's here! At least, in three years commuting I've never seen one on a train! I don;t know what they call the barrier people, but they are all ATW staff and nice people (except for one who didn't smile at me in Cardiff Central last May!).

The screen wasn;t working in certain areas. I managed, with great difficulty, to type in SWA to get Swansea, then I couldn't select the ticket type. Thinking about it, the keyboard is in the middle of the screen, and the ticket types are to the side. So it may be that the machine hasn't realised it's got a fault? I'm so glad I live in S Wales where you don't get penalty fares, or inquisitions when you want to buy on board!
 

Mojo

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And of course there's the famous issue of FGW's machines not working in the rain!
 

Dolive22

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Byelaw 18 read (in part) 'In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.'

There are three exceptions (plus the stnadard being an authorised person, which applies to most of the byelaws)

'(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.'

The notice must be at a station. In any case the NCoC lays out what fare you would have to pay, it does not authorise you to travel.
 

jon0844

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The new TVMs used by FCC and many others (not sure who makes them off the top of my head - but they're the same as the 'new' ones put in at King's Cross by platforms 9-11) are meant to be under cover, but the covers don't properly cover them - and rain, combined with cold weather, seems to make the screens act up all over the place.

My problem was being able to select a ticket but not proceed to 'buy ticket' as I couldn't press the icon!

I have no doubt that it's a known problem, just as much as I bet there are screens that are more suitable for use in exposed areas. A machine that is indoors in a warm, dry, environment are going to be fine - so it's rather naive to think that a small metal roof is going to make them work fine in a snowstorm!
 
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