Not collected the tickets from the station

[regularpanda]

Hello everyone,

I needed to travel to Edinburgh from Worthing and had an advanced return ticket booked for today.
I was in a rush due to being late and while on my way noticed that I need to collect the ticket which made it even worse. I rushed to the ticket office and told my collection reference number to the officer who entered it to the system but due to being to stressed I thought I would miss the train if I wait it to be printed and did not wait for it and run and talked to the officer at the gate that I have this collection reference on Trainline app and the officer let me pass through. I managed to catch the train within last seconds.

I travelled to London Victoria and then to King's Cross station and went to LNER ticket office. They told me that the ticket is shown as collected on the system and asked me to buy another ticket. I talked to the gate officer who asked me to talk to the officers in the train and I get into the train. I talked to the officer who was checking the tickets and explained the situation, showed him Trainline app which had the collection reference number and showing the details of the planned travel. He strictly told me that it is my responsibility to collect and present the ticket when asked and issued me with Unpaid Fare Notice of approximately £200. And told me that if I can find the ticket I can appeal. He said that the reason for the collection reference number and receipt and details of travel on Trainline being not sufficient is that I can cancel the tickets and get refund later which did not make much sense as advance travel tickets are not refundable. The only other possible fraud which can be made from my understanding after reading about how to rectify this issue is giving tickets to someone else and them using the tickets but I did not collect the tickets and the train was in a minute of alleged collection and I believe the officer in Worthing station printed the tickets while I was rushing to the gate.

At the moment I am feeling really stupid. I do not know how to rectify this and do not have the money to pay.

I am not sure what happened to the tickets, if they been printed (which seems likely) and if printed what did the officer in Worthing station did with the tickets if they just binned it or kept it safe thinking it could cause an issue like this for me.

Is there any way out for me in this?

 

[furlong]

You should have asked Kings Cross to phone Worthing ticket office - they should have put the ticket to one side, anticipating a call about it later.

You need now to get back in touch with Worthing yourself now, and then LNER, to try to sort something out.

 

[Haywain]

You should have asked Kings Cross to phone Worthing ticket office - they should have put the ticket to one side, anticipating a call about it later.

You need now to get back in touch with Worthing yourself now, and then LNER, to try to sort something out.

No, the OP should have shown a bit more patience at Worthing.

 

[regularpanda]

You should have asked Kings Cross to phone Worthing ticket office - they should have put the ticket to one side, anticipating a call about it later.

You need now to get back in touch with Worthing yourself now, and then LNER, to try to sort something out

Thank you. I will get in touch with Worthing station tomorrow morning. I actually asked the LNER officer in the ticket office if he can contact with the Worthing station and he refused to do that.

No, the OP should have shown a bit more patience at Worthing.

I know I should have known better was not able to manage the stress.

 

[furlong]

I actually asked the LNER officer in the ticket office if he can contact with the Worthing station and he refused to do that

That's unfortunate. At a station I know, when people accidentally leave tickets behind for one of the common local destinations, they simply put the tickets to one side and wait for a call from the barrier staff at that station.

 

[regularpanda]

That's unfortunate. At a station I know, when people accidentally leave tickets behind for one of the common local destinations, they simply put the tickets to one side and wait for a call from the barrier staff at that station.

I do hope that would be the case and the officer at Worthing station put the ticket on the side. If I manage to get the ticket can I appeal and get the unpaid fare notice cancelled?

 

[AlterEgo]

I do hope that would be the case and the officer at Worthing station put the ticket on the side. If I manage to get the ticket can I appeal and get the unpaid fare notice cancelled?

There is no formal appeal process for an Unpaid Fare Notice, but they may perhaps cancel it - however there is no automatic right to this even if you locate the tickets later.

 

[Belperpete]

That's unfortunate. At a station I know, when people accidentally leave tickets behind for one of the common local destinations, they simply put the tickets to one side and wait for a call from the barrier staff at that station.

I suspect the issue would be how readily available the internal phone number of the booking office at Worthing would be to a booking clerk at Kings Cross.

 

[MrJeeves]

I suspect the issue would be how readily available the internal phone number of the booking office at Worthing would be to a booking clerk at Kings Cross.

All phone numbers for ticket offices are readily available through industry-wide internal systems, so that shouldn't be an issue as long as staff are aware of the system.

 

[Belperpete]

No, the OP should have shown a bit more patience at Worthing.

Agreed, as the clerk had already entered the reference number, then it would only have taken a few seconds for the tickets to print out. Probably less time than it took for the OP to persuade the gateline staff to let him through without a ticket.

To the OP: I can see your conundrum here, in that if you waited for the ticket but then missed the train, you would have had your ticket but it would have been worthless, being an advance. However, the bottom line is that you chose to commit the offence of travelling without being in possession of a ticket, despite specifically being advised not to. You will now be entirely dependent on the goodwill of the train company not to take action against you.

It could be argued that the booking clerk at Kings Cross could have been more helpful. Alternatively it could be argued that the gateline staff at Worthing and Kings Cross were too helpful in letting you through without a ticket. But you really should have sought permission from the guard before boarding the train, not wait until mid journey to find out that the guard was not okay with it.

 

[regularpanda]

That's unfortunate. At a station I know, when people accidentally leave tickets behind for one of the common local destinations, they simply put the tickets to one side and wait for a call from the barrier staff at that station.

Thankfully the officer in Worthing station has kept the tickets and now a friend of mine has the tickets.
What should I do now with this?
Shall I pay the unpaid fare notice and then appeal or should I talk to LNER before that?
Can I travel from Edinburgh to Worthing with the photo of my ticket and Trainline app confirmation reference?
Shall I get my friend to send the tickets by post to my Edinburgh?

There is no formal appeal process for an Unpaid Fare Notice, but they may perhaps cancel it - however there is no automatic right to this even if you locate the tickets later.

Thank you! I managed to get the tickets shall I pay then apply to appeal as instructed on the notice or shall I talk to LNER customer service first?

Agreed, as the clerk had already entered the reference number, then it would only have taken a few seconds for the tickets to print out. Probably less time than it took for the OP to persuade the gateline staff to let him through without a ticket.

To the OP: I can see your conundrum here, in that if you waited for the ticket but then missed the train, you would have had your ticket but it would have been worthless, being an advance. However, the bottom line is that you chose to commit the offence of travelling without being in possession of a ticket, despite specifically being advised not to. You will now be entirely dependent on the goodwill of the train company not to take action against you.

It could be argued that the booking clerk at Kings Cross could have been more helpful. Alternatively it could be argued that the gateline staff at Worthing and Kings Cross were too helpful in letting you through without a ticket. But you really should have sought permission from the guard before boarding the train, not wait until mid journey to find out that the guard was not okay with it.

I know it was a very stressful moment which I will try not to be in again. I regret the decision I made and will be careful next time.

 

[reb0118]

Shall I get my friend to send the tickets by post to [me in] Edinburgh?

Yes, if they will arrive in time. It will save against purchasing new tickets to return or another potential UFN.

 

[tspaul26]

Shall I pay the unpaid fare notice and then appeal or should I talk to LNER before that?

As already stated above, you have no right of appeal. The unpaid fare notice is simply a form of invoice which you will either pay or not.

If you do not pay then LNER may consider taking further action against you, including potential criminal prosecution.

If you are able to provide copies of the outbound tickets then you might be able to persuade LNER to cancel the notice, but you are not entitled to this and whether LNER would actually be receptive to this I cannot say.

Can I travel from Edinburgh to Worthing with the photo of my ticket and Trainline app confirmation reference?

No, unless you are specifically authorised so to do. Even then you are likely to encounter problems unless you have a specific written authority from an identifiable member of rail staff e.g. a note with a booking office stamp on it.

Shall I get my friend to send the tickets by post to my Edinburgh?

That would probably be the best way forward.

 

[John R]

You might want to send them guaranteed next day delivery.

 

[gray1404]

Does the unpaid fares notice say anything about being able to appeal?

 

[Andy Pacer]

I suspect the issue would be how readily available the internal phone number of the booking office at Worthing would be to a booking clerk at Kings Cross.

Presumably as well even if the tickets were safely in the ticket office at Worthing they still couldn't have been used to board the train at King's Cross.

 

[nanstallon]

It seems amazing to me that LNER can prosecute the OP if he doesn't pay the UFN, when he now has a ticket to cover that journey. It really is time that the scales were not so loaded against the customer. Still, this is Britain, and the customer must be kept in his place!

 

[Andy Pacer]

It seems amazing to me that LNER can prosecute the OP if he doesn't pay the UFN, when he now has a ticket to cover that journey. It really is time that the scales were not so loaded against the customer. Still, this is Britain, and the customer must be kept in his place!

But he/she didn't have a their ticket with them at the time it was checked.

 

[nanstallon]

But he/she didn't have a their ticket with them at the time it was checked.

True, but he had paid the fare, and the ticket now available proves it. If I were the Chairman of the bench, I'd go for an absolute discharge and make the prosecution pay the defendant's (OP's) costs.

 

[MotCO]

It seems amazing to me that LNER can prosecute the OP if he doesn't pay the UFN, when he now has a ticket to cover that journey. It really is time that the scales were not so loaded against the customer. Still, this is Britain, and the customer must be kept in his place!

The issue is that the passenger must have a ticket for that journey at the time, not produced sometime after the event. If that was allowed, then eBay would be awash with people offering to sell unchecked tickets to passengers who did not have a ticket and were challenged by an inspector, who can then magically produce a ticket some time later in response to a letter.

 

[Andy Pacer]

True, but he had paid the fare, and the ticket now available proves it. If I were the Chairman of the bench, I'd go for an absolute discharge and make the prosecution pay the defendant's (OP's) costs.

But possession of the ticket after the event doesn't prove that someone else hadn't travelled on that ticket.

 

[John R]

The issue is that the passenger must have a ticket for that journey at the time, not produced sometime after the event. If that was allowed, then eBay would be awash with people offering to sell unchecked tickets to passengers who did not have a ticket and were challenged by an inspector, who can then magically produce a ticket some time later in response to a letter.

And also administratively it would cost a fortune if large numbers didn’t produce a ticket immediately when asked but entered a back office process to verify that they had one. Which could easily happen if the law entitled them to do it.

 

[Haywain]

If I were the Chairman of the bench, I'd go for an absolute discharge and make the prosecution pay the defendant's (OP's) costs.

So, if you were a magistrate you would ignore the law and just do your own thing?

 

[nanstallon]

So, if you were a magistrate you would ignore the law and just do your own thing?

Not at all. An absolute discharge is a conviction, because the law has been broken; however when it is only a technical breach and the defendant has not done anything morally wrong, the court may order an absolute discharge to reflect its view of the matter.

 

[island]

Not at all. An absolute discharge is a conviction, because the law has been broken; however when it is only a technical breach and the defendant has not done anything morally wrong, the court may order an absolute discharge to reflect its view of the matter.

That much is correct. But...

If I were the Chairman of the bench

then you would pronounce the collective or majority decision of the bench. The presiding justice does not have any power to decide things on their own.

make the prosecution pay the defendant's (OP's) costs

There is no power for a Magistrates Court to make a costs order in favour of a convicted defendant.

 

[regularpanda]

But possession of the ticket after the event doesn't prove that someone else hadn't travelled on that ticket.

All of the tickets were printed and stayed in the Worthing station. Now being posted to Edinburgh which I will pick up in two days. The officer in Worthing ticket office is the witness that I did not get the tickets and there is no way anyone else can travel with those tickets as they stayed in the Worthing station overnight.

 

[Hadders]

On the face of it this is an unfortunate incident. My observations are:

- @regularpanda should have left more time to collect the tickets at Worthing. Why did they not use a TVM (which would normally be quicker than using a ticket office)?
- If they'd given the ticket code to the member of staff and they were in the process of printing them why did they not wait for the ticket to be printed which would have taken less time than 'blagging their way through the gareline'?
- How did they cross London without the ticket?

 

[regularpanda]

Yes, if they will arrive in time. It will save against purchasing new tickets to return or another potential UFN.

Thank you. I am expecting them by post in two days.

Does the unpaid fares notice say anything about being able to appeal?

Yes it has explanation regarding the appeal process. The officer who issued the notice also told me that if I can present the tickets to the email address written on the notice they would cancel the notice.

The issue is that the passenger must have a ticket for that journey at the time, not produced sometime after the event. If that was allowed, then eBay would be awash with people offering to sell unchecked tickets to passengers who did not have a ticket and were challenged by an inspector, who can then magically produce a ticket some time later in response to a letter.

I agree to this but in my case I have witness and evidence it cannot be happening (the officer in Worthing station and my friends know about this and the tickets are being posted to Edinburgh which I will pick up within two days). I made an dumb but honest mistake due to being stressed and I hope that LNER would show some sympathy.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I agree to this but in my case I have witness and evidence it cannot be happening (the officer in Worthing station and my friends know about this and the tickets are being posted to Edinburgh which I will pick up within two days). I made an dumb but honest mistake due to being stressed and I hope that LNER would show some sympathy.

I'm sure it's a lesson learned too considering how much more stressed this whole episode will have made you as opposed to waiting a few extra seconds in the ticket office would have.

 

[tspaul26]

It seems amazing to me that LNER can prosecute the OP if he doesn't pay the UFN, when he now has a ticket to cover that journey.

The OP hasn’t at the moment - it is either still in Worthing or with Royal Mail.

True, but he had paid the fare, and the ticket now available proves it.

The ticket now available. Which was not available when the OP was asked to hand it over for inspection.

If I were the Chairman of the bench, I'd go for an absolute discharge and make the prosecution pay the defendant's (OP's) costs.

On what legal basis would you do this?

I agree to this but in my case I have witness and evidence it cannot be happening (the officer in Worthing station and my friends know about this and the tickets are being posted to Edinburgh which I will pick up within two days). I made a dumb but honest mistake due to being stressed and I hope that LNER would show some sympathy.

I think you can probably leave this “someone else could have used the ticket” line of argument to one side.

It isn’t really relevant to the situation you find yourself in.

The best way forward seems to be:

1. Receive all of the tickets in the post so that you can travel back.
2. Submit the outbound tickets in response to the UFN using whatever method the notice specifies. Include an explanation of what happened and request that the UFN be cancelled.
3. If LNER does not cancel the UFN by the payment deadline then you must decide whether to pay it or not, noting that a failure to pay the UFN may lead to LNER considering a prosecution against you.