Not happy with staff on Northern

[Bletchleyite]

This:

However, I must ascribe weight to the obligation that you should be making every effort to purchase a ticket, as per the terms and conditions of travelling.

...is very interesting, as it would certainly imply that it is not down to a simple choice of "I'd prefer to pay cash", as if you have a card and you don't use it (unless it has a zero balance and no overdraft facility) you are not making "every effort" to purchase a ticket.

 

[gray1404]

Totally pathetic. This Rail Ombudsman is hopeless and another revolving door exercise. There was nothing stopping the Rail Ombudsman say that: although a customer is expected to buy at the first opportunity, this is not extend to having to walk through the train to seek out the Conductor and there is nothing documented in this regard. Sounds like the rail continues to want to have their cake and eat it.

 

[gray1404]

I really wish the likes of the BBC would do an undercover investigation on how Northern are targeting arrivals at Leeds and Manchester Victoria. Targeting customers coming from stations without ticket selling facilitates. The way we see the hi-viz wannabe thugs hanging around the ticket offices waiting for innocent easy pickings at these stations is disgusting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really wish the likes of the BBC would do an undercover investigation on how Northern are targeting arrivals at Leeds and Manchester Victoria. Targeting customers coming from stations without ticket selling facilitates. The way we see the hi-viz wannabe thugs hanging around the ticket offices waiting for innocent easy pickings at these stations is disgusting.

I certainly think Northern is attempting to have their cake and eat it. I would be all for super-strict revenue enforcement if, for instance, they provided a minimum of two TVMs at each station with clear signage and no long walks to them, and that there was a due process to report such a TVM not working in exchange for a free journey as I understand Metrolink does or did.

 

[yorkie]

This:



...is very interesting, as it would certainly imply that it is not down to a simple choice of "I'd prefer to pay cash", as if you have a card and you don't use it (unless it has a zero balance and no overdraft facility) you are not making "every effort" to purchase a ticket.

It's just someone's opinion at an organisation that has already demonstrated itself to lack the required level of knowledge.

If I want a legal opinion I know solicitors and barristers who would be able to give me a much more informed opinion than they could.

• has seen the conductor stay in his cabin twice ..

No ticket check on my most recent Northern services (Leeds - Keighley; Keighley - Leeds; Leeds - York; York - Leeds; Leeds - York) which is entirely in line with my expectations.

I certainly think Northern is attempting to have their cake and eat it. ...

The last time someone said that to me was a mere two days ago (@robbeech ) though that was about Delay Repay. But it's true in several aspects of what Northern do.

They're a rotten company who appear to have united many of their customers and a sizeable proportion of their employees into disliking them. I can't think of any other company that has managed to achieve quite such levels of distrust among both its customers and staff alike.

 

[gray1404]

I know Ombudsmans in theory are to be fair to both parties. But the Rail Ombudsman is bias towards the TOCs and very anti passenger in reality.

 

[yorkie]

https://www.railombudsman.org/about-us/

We are an independent, not-for-profit organisation approved by the Chartered Institute of Trading Standards and approved as Full Members of the Ombudsman Association.

Are either of these institutions likely to listen to us if we complain about the lack of knowledge and ineffectiveness of the Rail Ombudsman, does anyone know? Or is that beyond their remit?

I know Ombudsmans in theory are to be fair to both parties. But the Rail Ombudsman is bias towards the TOCs and very anti passenger in reality.

True.

They got off to a bad start: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/an-unsatisfactory-start-from-the-rail-ombudsman.177457/ I proposed meeting with them to see if we could improve things, but they refused. Now I realise they have no intention of increasing their knowledge and improving outcomes for passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last time someone said that to me was a mere two days ago (@robbeech ) though that was about Delay Repay. But it's true in several aspects of what Northern do.

They're a rotten company who appear to have united many of their customers and a sizeable proportion of their employees into disliking them. I can't think of any other company that has managed to achieve quite such levels of distrust among both its customers and staff alike.

I don't think LNR are far behind them, to be fair, but I would personally say that Northern are presently by far the worst TOC in a way the previous, far worse-funded, Abellio incarnation weren't.

At least LNR, unlike Northern, have now realised that they have screwed up and are actually working to fix things.

 

[yorkie]

You mean WMT (LNR is a brand name used by the train company called West Midlands Trains); but yes I agree Northern are even worse than WMT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean WMT (LNR is a brand name used by the train company called West Midlands Trains); but yes I agree Northern are even worse than WMT.

Yes, correct, sorry

 

[MikeWh]

This:



...is very interesting, as it would certainly imply that it is not down to a simple choice of "I'd prefer to pay cash", as if you have a card and you don't use it (unless it has a zero balance and no overdraft facility) you are not making "every effort" to purchase a ticket.

No.

It's saying you should make every effort to purchase a ticket. It is not making any statement about which of the many methods of payment which are available should be used. The railway accepts cash. End of. Until that facility is publicly discontinued there is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPULSION TO USE ANY METHOD OF PAYMENT THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No.

It's saying you should make every effort to purchase a ticket. It is not making any statement about which of the many methods of payment which are available should be used. The railway accepts cash. End of. Until that facility is publicly discontinued there is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPULSION TO USE ANY METHOD OF PAYMENT THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO.

That does not appear to be the opinion of a number of TOCs, and my opinion is tending that way, too. Too many people who could pay by card or on their phone (and already have the app for doing so) are using Promise to Pay tickets as a means of avoiding payment. They will spoil it for us all, and the only logical outcome of that is "you must pay using the payment methods on offer at your journey start, and if those are not available the station is closed unless you've somehow prepaid" - which is the position of SBB in Switzerland on regional routes so there is precedent for such a policy.

 

[yorkie]

That does not appear to be the opinion of a number of TOCs, and my opinion is tending that way, too. Too many people who could pay by card or on their phone (and already have the app for doing so) are using Promise to Pay tickets as a means of avoiding payment. They will spoil it for us all, and the only logical outcome of that is "you must pay using the payment methods on offer at your journey start, and if those are not available the station is closed unless you've somehow prepaid" - which is the position of SBB in Switzerland on regional routes so there is precedent for such a policy.

That's odd because I spoke to a forum member who was in a prominent post at Rail Delivery Group who made it clear that if the passenger wishes to pay by cash then they are entitled to do so. We have been though this many times before!

If you wish to resurrect your proposals for a Swiss style system you are welcome to do so in an appropriately titled thread in the relevant forum area.

 

[Wombat]

"However, I must ascribe weight to the obligation that you should be making every effort to purchase a ticket, as per the terms and conditions of travelling."

Lame in the extreme. What does "every effort" mean? If you really wanted to, you could make the effort to depart from a manned station that can sell you a ticket, but the suggestion that you should do that is clearly absurd. I always wonder whether organisations like this know that they're useless, or if they think they're doing a good job.

Maybe it's worth getting your MP involved. Both Northern and now the ombudsman have swerved a simple but significant question, and I don't see why they should get away with it.

 

[some bloke]

The Ombudsman home page refers to "transparent outcomes". Yet they risk misleading passengers about the "obligation".

The National Rail Conditions of Travel states;
[....] “This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.”

They took no account of this:

the passage...is an information box and does not form part of a Train Company's contract with the customer.

We might think the Ombudsman should know the position, even if they hadn't seen that letter of yours to Northern.

And:

It also says “should”, not “must”.

So to me, this looks less than expert - and liable to mislead:

I recognise that there are circumstances where you may be unable to purchase a ticket via your starting station, or from the conductor on the train. However, I must ascribe weight to the obligation that you should be making every effort to purchase a ticket, as per the terms and conditions of travelling.

 

[some bloke]

Are either of these institutions likely to listen to us if we complain about the lack of knowledge and ineffectiveness of the Rail Ombudsman, does anyone know? Or is that beyond their remit?

Perhaps the reference to "audit" is relevant:

CTSI is appointed by the UK government to audit and approve bodies which meet requirements of the consumer Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) Regulations (The Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes - Competent Authorities and Information - Regulations) 2015.

https://www.tradingstandards.uk/news-policy/news-room/2018/new-rail-ombudsman-launched-today

The Regulation on "removal of approval" is here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/542/regulation/13/made

.......................

The Association has no role whatsoever in the internal working of member schemes nor any influence or jurisdiction over them.

http://www.ombudsmanassociation.org/the-ombudsman-association.php

 

[gray1404]

I'd be tempted to make a formal complaint to the Ombudsmen for the failure to address the situation and not take account of all relivant evidence and documentation.

 

[WesternLancer]

https://www.railombudsman.org/about-us/

Are either of these institutions likely to listen to us if we complain about the lack of knowledge and ineffectiveness of the Rail Ombudsman, does anyone know? Or is that beyond their remit?


True.

They got off to a bad start: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/an-unsatisfactory-start-from-the-rail-ombudsman.177457/ I proposed meeting with them to see if we could improve things, but they refused. Now I realise they have no intention of increasing their knowledge and improving outcomes for passengers.

Would there be any value in writing to the (new) chair of the HoC Transport Select Committee suggesting the idea of eg a 'mini' select cttee enquiry into issues to do with Ticket Penalty Fares / Delay-Repay / Ombudsman handling etc?

Such an investigation (if they opted to do it) would then allow people to make written submissions and send in case studies, and may result in being called to give evidence (as would TOC reps / RDG / ombudsman / TF etc - who I would expect to be actively called to give evidence).

 

[gray1404]

It would be worth a shot. You would simple write to the Chair of the Committee but do this by name i.e.
MP's Name - whoever the Chair happens to be
House of Commons
London SW1A 0AA

The other way of achieving this would be to write to your own MP (as above) and ask them if they would please support your request, that the Committee looks into this, and could they write to the Chair (enclosing your correspondence) requesting such a review.

 

[WesternLancer]

It would be worth a shot. You would simple write to the Chair of the Committee but do this by name i.e.
MP's Name - whoever the Chair happens to be
House of Commons
London SW1A 0AA

The other way of achieving this would be to write to your own MP (as above) and ask them if they would please support your request, that the Committee looks into this, and could they write to the Chair (enclosing your correspondence) requesting such a review.

You would need to do it via the Select Committee as per here
https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/153/transport-committee (see the 'contact us' at the base of this page) as otherwise it risks being mixed up with constituency correspondence and misunderstood (eg by some underling who screens the MPs correspondence). Indeed could also try via your own MP - and indeed the Chair indicates an interest in matters raised by reps from 'across the House' but odds on risk is they would have little understanding about the subtleties of the issues and probably just think you wanted to complain about Ombudsman etc and take it up with the Sec of State or some other blind alley. Better to engage with the Select Committee (and its transport expert staff) via the MP who is the relatively new Chair.

Such an approach would need detailed evidence, case studies etc were the Cttee to progress it - because no doubt the TOCs / RDG would provide evidence showing large numbers of claims made / appeals successful / penalties legitimately charged to offenders etc etc to imply that generally the system works very well.