Not happy with staff on Northern

[SteveM70]

Which is going to be more likely to be the case? That a passenger has inadvertently or otherwise committed what is usually a strict liability offence, or that railway staff are (again, I feel the need to point this out) engaged in a criminal conspiracy to frame passengers, with absolutely no net benefit to themselves?

The obvious “net benefit” would be the avoidance of potential disciplinary action for not performing their jobs properly

 

[sheff1]

Which is going to be more likely to be the case? That a passenger has inadvertently or otherwise committed what is usually a strict liability offence, or that railway staff are (again, I feel the need to point this out) engaged in a criminal conspiracy to frame passengers, with absolutely no net benefit to themselves?

I was responding to your point about people jumping to conclusions. Human nature is that people can jump to conclusions, some more quickly than others and some with less evidence than others.

 

[trenopendo]

engaged in a criminal conspiracy to frame passengers, with absolutely no net benefit to themselves

Don't underestimate Big TOC employees. I think some of them would frame a passenger if it meant avoiding disciplinary action.

 

[deltic]

It does not happen on a regular basis. The police consider the evidence they've found, and don't accuse anyone until charges are being considered.

Northern's staff conduct their investigation and speak to the public in a very different way to the police.

Around 400,000 people are stopped and searched by police each year based on suspicion. Only a quarter are arrested and not everyone arrested is charged. Plenty of people are arrested on suspicion of committing an offence and are subsequently released without charge. From my experience how the police speak to you depends very much on your characteristics.

 

[Starmill]

Around 400,000 people are stopped and searched by police each year based on suspicion. Only a quarter are arrested and not everyone arrested is charged. Plenty of people are arrested on suspicion of committing an offence and are subsequently released without charge. From my experience how the police speak to you depends very much on your characteristics.

This is all undoubtedly correct.

Being searched, or even arrested on suspicion of an offence you aren't then charged for, however, is not done simply because you travelled on a train. Crucially, being searched by itself does not imply that you have committed an offence, but Northern do do this.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Northern made a mistake in their revenue operation. It doesn't surprise me that their mistake caused them to falsely accuse a consumer of a serious crime. And it doesn't surprise me that, when found out, the mistake was not dealt with in the proper way, and they didn't even bother to offer apologies.

 

[Master29]

Don't underestimate Big TOC employees. I think some of them would frame a passenger if it meant avoiding disciplinary action.

Really, and run a significant risk of losing their job. Sounds really productive that.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I never understand why some posters jump to the conclusion that rail staff are acting with malice when their actions are perfectly explainable by incompetence. Never mind suggesting that they are involved in criminal conspiracy...

Which is going to be more likely to be the case? That a passenger has inadvertently or otherwise committed what is usually a strict liability offence, or that railway staff are (again, I feel the need to point this out) engaged in a criminal conspiracy to frame passengers, with absolutely no net benefit to themselves?

You are completely twisting what was originally posted to make a point. The poster said what would have happened if the two people at Outwood had lied to cover the fact they had gone walkabouts? If they thought the fact they had not being doing their job, and hadn't told someone they had had a break or whatever they were doing, could lead to disciplinary action being taken then of course lying would benefit them.

 

[ca2102]

Thank you all for your comments and observations, I appreciate all of your replies. I am not a frequent rail traveller so my thoughts regarding the episode are purely personal and I have no axe to grind with TOCs.

1. Fare dodging should never be condoned - It costs us all.
2. Attempts to reduce the number of fare dodgers should be accomodated by all rail users - If the attempts are done correctly.
3. A clear explanation of the exercise is given to the rail user - Courteously and with a measure of humility.
4. Railway staff are not expected to be abused by rail users - This is a two way street. Conduct and manners are important when dealing with rail users.
5. TOCs operate a "guilty until proven innocent" policy - This can be stressful for innocent rail users caught up in a flawed excercise.
6. If you are wrong in your assertions, admit it and apologise - Nothing difficult here.

Looking at numerous threads on this forum my experience with Northern has been trivial in comparison. My sympathies go to the other "innocents" out there.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

As to the question as to whether there is a legal obligation to take the token and present it, well, you are obliged to follow any instructions from railway staff

Perhaps you would like to cite a source for this claim? The NRCoT do not contain any provision dealing with complying with staff instructions (other than in relation to the carriage of firearms). The Byelaws only require passengers to obey instructions relating to safety. If you refer to the common law authority of landowners (or their indirectly appointed representatives as may be the case here) to determine the behaviour of those on their land, the only penalty for failure to comply with this would be ejection from the land in question. It wouldn't be an offence to refuse to comply with the instructions.

I can't see what the problem is there.

What if, as happened to the OP, the staff were not actually present? What if the staff didn't actually cover all the entrances to the station (bearing in mind there are lesser used side entrances to many stations)? What if the OP was unfortunate enough to lose the slip they were issued, during their journey? Would any of these make out an offence? No, of course they would not. But they could quite easily lead to significant issues, as experienced by the OP (and if it had not been for the honesty of the staff at their origin station they could be defending a wrongful prosecution). Unless there is sufficient CCTV or other similar evidence (e.g. tailing by undercover RPIs) throughout the journey, I think it is very difficult to be certain that a scheme like this can be fully relied upon for its intended purpose.

To their credit they did phone through, and get confirmation that the OP was telling the truth, but to my mind the complaint should be more directed at the failure of the process that led to the two staff being put in the position of making a false accusation. I bet they were just as mad as you were that in carrying out their job they were let down by their colleagues and made to look silly.

It's hardly to their credit if it required the RPIs at Leeds to actively phone them to find out they were not in position. They should have used the relevant measures (e.g. TyrellCheck or Northern's equivalent of this) to ensure that their collegues at Leeds already knew of the situation before the OP even got on the train.

That they may have been mad at being undermined is no reason not to give a profuse apology to the OP there and then. But then again the customer service training of a number of individuals I've come across in these kinds of roles has been less than perfect to put it nicely. So, I have to say, I'm not at all surprised by this (even if it's still just as unacceptable).

I never understand why some posters jump to the conclusion that rail staff are acting with malice when their actions are perfectly explainable by incompetence. Never mind suggesting that they are involved in criminal conspiracy...

Which is going to be more likely to be the case? That a passenger has inadvertently or otherwise committed what is usually a strict liability offence, or that railway staff are (again, I feel the need to point this out) engaged in a criminal conspiracy to frame passengers, with absolutely no net benefit to themselves?

Perhaps it's not obvious, but the security of employment of many people in that position is often tenuous at best. They tend to be employed on zero hours contracts and/or as outsourced agency workers, often paying minimum wage (or close to it). If you were in that situation, and you had just made a mistake that could cause someone to wrongfully be apprehended (or potentially even convicted of a criminal offence), perhaps you can see the incentives of not admitting to what you had just done.

Really, and run a significant risk of losing their job. Sounds really productive that.

If they back each other up then who is to ever know any better? Both being in the same situation, it wouldn't at all be the first time that people covered up a mistake they had made to cover their own backs.

The reality is that employing people in the nature that unfortunately occurs for these kinds of roles, is not in the slightest conducive to obtaining evidence as reliable and trustworthy as that which might be expected from, say, a police officer. And yet seemingly their word is just taken. It's a deeply unsatisfactory situation which would best be remedied by either the installation of ticket barriers at all short-faring hotspots (expensive, yes) or much more extensive installation and use of CCTV in such cases (time consuming, yes).

The standard of evidence required to convict (or intimidate into pleading guilty) someone of an offence of this nature, which can lead to a considerable fine and potentially damaging criminal record, is frankly laughable. The process of self-administered SJP summonses is an affront to the idea of justice and the concept of innocent until proven guilty. But these mechanisms and schemes are cheap and efficient, so no-one really cares if it falsely convicts a few innocent people amongst the greater number of guilty people.

 

[trenopendo]

Really, and run a significant risk of losing their job. Sounds really productive that.

Yes, because the alternative is being fired if they have been working for less than 2 years and can be dismissed without just cause. Besides, you wouldn't know if middle (upper?) management is also part of the conspiracy.

 

[shredder1]

Can I ask, if he had already paid his fare at Leeds and held a valid ticket, could he have simply ignored them and continued on his journey, or would they beable to hold someone against their will who held a valid ticket, he obvuiously wasnt intending to avaoid the fare, because he paid it as soon as he arrived, I`m just curious, thanks in advance.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Can I ask, if he had already paid his fare at Leeds and held a valid ticket, could he have simply ignored them and continued on his journey, or would they beable to hold someone against their will who held a valid ticket, he obvuiously wasnt intending to avaoid the fare, because he paid it as soon as he arrived, I`m just curious, thanks in advance.

The Byelaws don't give rise to any right to hold a person after they have passed the automatic or manned barriers in the correct manner. None of the offences under the Byelaws or RoRA are indictable so, unless the person in question is causing a disturbance likely to cause a breach of the peace, there exists no right to a "citizen's arrest" under common law or Section 24A of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. See this article for more.

It's possible the staff would follow you and that they might call the (British Transport) Police, who in turn would be authorised to arrest you if the conditions for a police arrest were satisfied. But a determined passenger might well get away before they turned up. It'd probably be down to chance as to what happened.

 

[shredder1]

Thats sounds reasonable, thank you.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

Hello, On Sunday 15th December I went to Outwood Station to catch the 13:01 train to Leeds. The ticket machine was out-of-order so when I boarded the train I was hoping to buy a ticket from the guard. This did not happen so when I arrived at Leeds station I went to the Ticket Office and purchased an Outwood-Leeds single ticket for £3.30p. (Outwood is the last station before Leeds) I had not walked 5 metres from the Ticket Office when I was stopped by 2 staff (one female and the other male). The female staff member asked me where I had travelled from and could she see my ticket. (If I did not know better I am sure that they heard me make my purchase at the Ticket Office). She then said that Outwood station was conducting a "blocking excercise" (or something like that) and could I show her a "ticket/voucher" that should have been given to me by two members of staff that were at Outwood station. I told her there were no staff on the platform at Outwood but she insisted that there were. I re-affirmed my statement that there were no staff at Outwood station and her reply both surprised and upset me. She said that if I could not produce a "ticket/voucher" that should have been given to me by two staff at Outwood station then she would have to assume that I must have travelled from another station. This, to me, meant that I was being accused of being a fare dodger. All this was happening on the concourse whilst commuters were passing and to say that I was embarrassed and humiliated was no under-statement. I showed her my driving licence with my Outwood address on it and again insisted that there were no staff present at Outwood station when I boarded the train. She then told me to wait and proceeded to make a mobile telephone call in front of me. I heard her describing myself (age, clothing etc.) and asking if they (the two staff) were at Outwood station. She then asked them if they had left the station at all. They must have admitted that they had, at some point, left the station because she proceeded to tell them that they must let her know if they ever leave the station, even for a moment. After the telephone call ended she told me that her colleague (the male member of staff who was stood with her) would deal with the two members of staff at Outwood station. She then said I could continue my journey. Not a sorry, not an apology, nothing. The whole experience has left a bad taste in my mouth and I am still angry about the whole episode. I am 61 years old and have always paid my dues. To be falsely accused and made to feel like I did is shameful on Northern Railways part. I do not expect anything to happen because there were two staff members present and it is their word against mine but I will not forget the experience anytime soon.

i have had a northern guard make me (a 15 year old) buy another ticket because it was apparently not valid (it was, it was bought from there website in there flash sale) he said he would tell every other northern guard not to accept my ticket however funnily enough everyone did. there are just those types of jobsworth, moody people at northern.

 

[Skiddaw]

I bet Northern are the Employers From Hell. I've no evidence, but based on their reputation I can just imagine it being one of those bullying, divide and rule working cultures. Not saying that's an excuse for staff to be rude or obstructive but it is so often the way when you encounter staff with a pants employer isn't it? Very little incentive to be friendly or accommodating.

 

[LMS 4F]

I have said on previous threads that as a former Police Officer I have grave doubts about a lot of what I read on here as regards to actions of staff dealing with alleged offenders. The need to conform to P.A.C.E. 1984 act, the rules of evidence and recording of what was or was not said seems to be problematic at best. Someone, most probably an untrained zero hours employee, will find themselves in the dock one day facing a charge of perverting the course of Justice. If I was in any of these situations I would certainly fight it all the way. It would appear that a lot of TOCs are no better than rip off car parking firms when it comes to their procedures.

 

[sportzbar]

Coming back onto the topic, as a former guard I recall an incidence of arriving at a station that had in the past few weeks become a penalty fares station. The single ticket machine was not working and there were contractors (not actual Northern staff, but hey if it says Northern on their hi-viz then naturally...), handing out little slips of badly photocopied paper. On it was stated that the passenger had boarded at said station. As I went through the train I was presented with these slips, the contractors telling passengers to present then at the first opportunity to buy a ticket ( in respect almost as a promise to pay).

Later when speaking to my colleagues and management it became apparent that this was something that had been decided by the contractor and no one from Northern had actually given approval. I'm wondering if the same idea has resurfaced again.

As for the way the op was treated it stinks of race to the bottom, cheap as chips staff with no customer service training.

 

[323235]

Blocking is a perfectly legitimate way to catch people short faring, and I would imagine is very effective, and catches a lot of people out. If it prevents fare dodging then I'm all in favour of it. As to the question as to whether there is a legal obligation to take the token and present it, well, you are obliged to follow any instructions from railway staff, and it would be in your own interest to do so, so I can't see what the problem is there.

I'm pretty sure I recall a court case, where Northern tried to prosecute a passenger who didn't have a "voucher" and it was proven that these so called "vouchers" they give out during revenue blockades have no legal standing, the only thing that matters is, whether a passengers has breached the relevant ticketing bylaws.

@yorkie would be the one to confirm this .

 

[70014IronDuke]

I never understand why some posters jump to the conclusion that rail staff are acting with malice when their actions are perfectly explainable by incompetence. Never mind suggesting that they are involved in criminal conspiracy...

Oh, indeed.

Jumping to conclusions without properly reading the text posted can lead one up the creek without a dead man's handle, and even with egg on the visage.

Rashness in the railway industry is not to be recommended.

 

[Antman]

Something very similar happened to my neice on Southeastern a year or so ago, she arrived at Bickley and found the ticket office closed and the machine out of order. She asked a member of staff who was sweeping up on the platform how to buy a ticket and he told her to pay at her destination. When she got off at Shortlands there were revenue staff checking tickets and they made it quite clear that they didn't believe what she was saying. Eventually they phoned Bickley and presumably got confirmation that the ticket office had indeed been closed and she was told quite abruptly to buy a ticket from the ticket office there at Shortlands. Presumably if they hadn't got this confirmation she would have been treated as a fare dodger? This might sound like a nothing incident to some people but she is a shy and rather timid teenager who lacks a bit of self confidence and she was quite upset by the whole experience. Her mother (my sister) contacted Southeastern and eventually got an apology and an and an assurance that the staff would be interviewed about it and retrained if necessary.

 

[ca2102]

Here is the response I received from my complaint........... (A mealy mouthed apology at best - I can imagine the grinding of teeth whilst it was being typed).

Dear xxxxx,

Whilst unacceptable behaviour of a staff member cannot be condoned, our revenue staff have a difficult job to do, ensuring that people who arrive into the station have an appropriate ticket for travel so that we, as a responsible and subsidised business manage and help to reduce fare evasion across the railway industry.

It is a condition of the Railway Bylaws that if a ticket office or ticket machine is provided all customers must be in possession of a ticket before getting on a train. We respectfully ask our customers to make use of these facilities before joining our services. When our ticket office is closed and there are no ticket machines available it is possible to purchase a ticket from the conductor on the train. It is the customer’s responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket. Essentially, the act of using a train service without a valid ticket is illegal and can result in a criminal record.

Reducing the number of people who travel without a ticket is not only in our interest as the operator but also in the interest of our fare paying customers. No-one wants to pay more for their tickets, because some people avoid paying and there is loss of income due to people travelling without tickets, it reduces the money available to us to invest in a better rail service. It is imperative that our staff approach customers in a reasonable, polite and professional manner and put our customers at ease if it is felt that it is appropriate to question them about their ticket or travel arrangements. I am sorry if you feel that this was not the case on this occasion. To this end your comments regarding the attitude of the staff member will be passed to the relevant manager for investigation.

Kind regards

xxxxxxx
Customer Complaints Manager

Telephone: 0800 200 6060
Smart Ticketing: 0333 222 0127
Post: FREEPOST Northern Railway

www.northernrailway.co.uk

If you are planning a journey, or you already have a journey booked, please ensure that you refer to Journey Check before you travel. This will enable you to keep up to date with any potential changes to your planned journey.

https://www.journeycheck.com/northern/

Proud to be Northern

 

[WesternLancer]

Here is the response I received from my complaint........... (A mealy mouthed apology at best - I can imagine the grinding of teeth whilst it was being typed).

Dear xxxxx,

Whilst unacceptable behaviour of a staff member cannot be condoned, our revenue staff have a difficult job to do, ensuring that people who arrive into the station have an appropriate ticket for travel so that we, as a responsible and subsidised business manage and help to reduce fare evasion across the railway industry.

It is a condition of the Railway Bylaws that if a ticket office or ticket machine is provided all customers must be in possession of a ticket before getting on a train. We respectfully ask our customers to make use of these facilities before joining our services. When our ticket office is closed and there are no ticket machines available it is possible to purchase a ticket from the conductor on the train. It is the customer’s responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket. Essentially, the act of using a train service without a valid ticket is illegal and can result in a criminal record.

Reducing the number of people who travel without a ticket is not only in our interest as the operator but also in the interest of our fare paying customers. No-one wants to pay more for their tickets, because some people avoid paying and there is loss of income due to people travelling without tickets, it reduces the money available to us to invest in a better rail service. It is imperative that our staff approach customers in a reasonable, polite and professional manner and put our customers at ease if it is felt that it is appropriate to question them about their ticket or travel arrangements. I am sorry if you feel that this was not the case on this occasion. To this end your comments regarding the attitude of the staff member will be passed to the relevant manager for investigation.

Kind regards

xxxxxxx
Customer Complaints Manager

Telephone: 0800 200 6060
Smart Ticketing: 0333 222 0127
Post: FREEPOST Northern Railway

www.northernrailway.co.uk

If you are planning a journey, or you already have a journey booked, please ensure that you refer to Journey Check before you travel. This will enable you to keep up to date with any potential changes to your planned journey.

https://www.journeycheck.com/northern/

Proud to be Northern

well - at least you forced them to address it and respond, which I think is the main thing and a good reason for your taking the time to do it.

 

[thejuggler]

The letter needs a follow up, just on the basis of this statement.

"It is the customer’s responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket"

I'd ask them where this laid down in any regulation.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Here is the response I received from my complaint........... (A mealy mouthed apology at best - I can imagine the grinding of teeth whilst it was being typed).

Dear xxxxx,

Whilst unacceptable behaviour of a staff member cannot be condoned, our revenue staff have a difficult job to do, ensuring that people who arrive into the station have an appropriate ticket for travel so that we, as a responsible and subsidised business manage and help to reduce fare evasion across the railway industry.

It is a condition of the Railway Bylaws that if a ticket office or ticket machine is provided all customers must be in possession of a ticket before getting on a train. We respectfully ask our customers to make use of these facilities before joining our services. When our ticket office is closed and there are no ticket machines available it is possible to purchase a ticket from the conductor on the train. It is the customer’s responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket. Essentially, the act of using a train service without a valid ticket is illegal and can result in a criminal record.

Reducing the number of people who travel without a ticket is not only in our interest as the operator but also in the interest of our fare paying customers. No-one wants to pay more for their tickets, because some people avoid paying and there is loss of income due to people travelling without tickets, it reduces the money available to us to invest in a better rail service. It is imperative that our staff approach customers in a reasonable, polite and professional manner and put our customers at ease if it is felt that it is appropriate to question them about their ticket or travel arrangements. I am sorry if you feel that this was not the case on this occasion. To this end your comments regarding the attitude of the staff member will be passed to the relevant manager for investigation.

Kind regards

xxxxxxx
Customer Complaints Manager

Telephone: 0800 200 6060
Smart Ticketing: 0333 222 0127
Post: FREEPOST Northern Railway

www.northernrailway.co.uk

If you are planning a journey, or you already have a journey booked, please ensure that you refer to Journey Check before you travel. This will enable you to keep up to date with any potential changes to your planned journey.

https://www.journeycheck.com/northern/

Proud to be Northern

What a heartless, complete don't-give-a-toss reply from Northern. Clearly (semi)-automated, and not remotely addressing the issue on hand. Other than the first statement about condoning staff behaviour there is absolutely ZERO acknowledgement of the staff member's unacceptable behaviour, instead just rabbiting on about fare evasion policy which we all know already. Not even a 'thank you for your email' or a 'sorry that you experienced the issues at X on xx/xx/xxxx'.

I would be furious if I was the OP, and I would take this further. What a stark contrast to the very well-acknowledged email I received from GWR just before Christmas.

 

[WesternLancer]

What a heartless, complete don't-give-a-toss reply from Northern. Clearly (semi)-automated, and not remotely addressing the issue on hand. Other than the first statement about condoning staff behaviour there is absolutely ZERO acknowledgement of the staff member's unacceptable behaviour, instead just rabbiting on about fare evasion policy which we all know already. Not even a 'thank you for your email' or a 'sorry that you experienced the issues at X on xx/xx/xxxx'.

I would be furious if I was the OP, and I would take this further. What a stark contrast to the very well-acknowledged email I received from GWR just before Christmas.

well.....it's hard to know the reality and some people are more easily offended by tone and language than others so....

I recall once being advised that there are phrases that you can use that help you avoid libel for example. 'shocked' being one. 'The inspectors manner and language was absolutely shocking, I was incensed' - for example (no one would know whether I am easily shocked or easily incensed...).

 

[ValleyLines142]

well.....it's hard to know the reality and some people are more easily offended by tone and language than others so....

I recall once being advised that there are phrases that you can use that help you avoid libel for example. 'shocked' being one. 'The inspectors manner and language was absolutely shocking, I was incensed' - for example (no one would know whether I am easily shocked or easily incensed...).

It's difficult unless being face-to-face to fully understand the tone in which somebody is saying something; that always appear to be the case when speaking to people on Facebook messenger etc but the complete lack of acknowledgement is still enough to go on.

 

[gray1404]

I would certainly follow this up with another reply to Northern. Their reply is unacceptable as it takes no account of the fact that the customer was unable to purchase before boarding. They are also totally incorrect that it is for the customer to track down the guard on boarding. They have also failed to applogise that the way the customer was treated was unacceptable and no assurances that the matter will not happen again.

I would follow this up asking for a Manager (an actual Manager) to look at the complaint and issue a final reply/dead lock letter to enable the matter to then be taken to the Rail Ombudsman if their next reply is not satisfactory.

 

[londonbridge]

The letter needs a follow up, just on the basis of this statement.

"It is the customer’s responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket"

I'd ask them where this laid down in any regulation.

Was going to suggest the same, ask them to point out the relevant clause in the NRCOC which specifies this.

 

[PeterC]

I'm pretty sure I recall a court case, where Northern tried to prosecute a passenger who didn't have a "voucher" and it was proven that these so called "vouchers" they give out during revenue blockades have no legal standing, the only thing that matters is, whether a passengers has breached the relevant ticketing bylaws.

@yorkie would be the one to confirm this .

This discussion of "vouchers" is confuising me. If you are unable to purchase the required ticket and are given something that authorises you to travel then this doesn't have to be produced when asked to show your ticket?

 

[thejuggler]

The Northern voucher scheme is something they made up to try and stop passengers buying shorter distance tickets. They are 'proof' you did embark at the station before the terminus and not one miles before.

As far as I am aware the legality of this has never been tested, but the voucher certainly isn't a ticket,