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Not happy with staff on Northern

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ca2102

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2020
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15
Location
Outwood
So - After their response to my complaint I have sent this email as a reply.......

Dear Mr xxxx,

I appreciate your acknowledgement of my complaint however, I believe this to be a sterile and impersonal response taken from your "Northern Rail Examples of Replies to Customer Complaints" Handbook. There is nothing that relates to me personally or the specific incident in your bog-standard reply, and there is nothing mentioned in your response that would reassure me that incidents of this kind will not happen again.

Whilst I fully agree with your statements regarding "revenue staff having a difficult job to do" and your efforts to "reduce fare evasion" I take issue with your comment that "It is the customer's responsibilty to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket". Could you specify the relevant clause in the NRCOC that places that onus onto the customer. I am of the understanding that a customer should purchase a ticket as soon as they are reasonably able to. This does not mean tracking down a conductor on potentially overcrowded trains.
 
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VinnieManc

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Top of page 9

edI9G7j.png
 

gray1404

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The information boxes in the NRCoT do not form part of the conditions. Furthermore, the box above says if there is a conductor available. If the conductor doesn't come through selling tickets then there isn't a conductor available.
 

some bloke

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,561
Northern Railway Customer Complaints Manager said:
When our ticket office is closed and there are no ticket machines available it is possible to purchase a ticket from the conductor on the train. It is the customer’s responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket. Essentially, the act of using a train service without a valid ticket is illegal and can result in a criminal record.

Is the response from Northern - "responsibility...Essentially...illegal...criminal record" - likely to mislead also because if seeking a conductor had been a Condition of Travel
(https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/requirement-to-find-the-guard.189136/#post-4157422)
failing to comply would, in itself, be a civil rather than criminal matter?
 

island

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The information boxes in the NRCoT do not form part of the conditions. Furthermore, the box above says if there is a conductor available. If the conductor doesn't come through selling tickets then there isn't a conductor available.
It also says “should”, not “must”.
 

ca2102

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2020
Messages
15
Location
Outwood
Here is the response I received from my complaint........... (A mealy mouthed apology at best - I can imagine the grinding of teeth whilst it was being typed).

Dear xxxxx,

Whilst unacceptable behaviour of a staff member cannot be condoned, our revenue staff have a difficult job to do, ensuring that people who arrive into the station have an appropriate ticket for travel so that we, as a responsible and subsidised business manage and help to reduce fare evasion across the railway industry.

It is a condition of the Railway Bylaws that if a ticket office or ticket machine is provided all customers must be in possession of a ticket before getting on a train. We respectfully ask our customers to make use of these facilities before joining our services. When our ticket office is closed and there are no ticket machines available it is possible to purchase a ticket from the conductor on the train. It is the customer’s responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket. Essentially, the act of using a train service without a valid ticket is illegal and can result in a criminal record.

Reducing the number of people who travel without a ticket is not only in our interest as the operator but also in the interest of our fare paying customers. No-one wants to pay more for their tickets, because some people avoid paying and there is loss of income due to people travelling without tickets, it reduces the money available to us to invest in a better rail service. It is imperative that our staff approach customers in a reasonable, polite and professional manner and put our customers at ease if it is felt that it is appropriate to question them about their ticket or travel arrangements. I am sorry if you feel that this was not the case on this occasion. To this end your comments regarding the attitude of the staff member will be passed to the relevant manager for investigation.

Kind regards

xxxxxxx
Customer Complaints Manager

Telephone: 0800 200 6060
Smart Ticketing: 0333 222 0127
Post: FREEPOST Northern Railway

www.northernrailway.co.uk

If you are planning a journey, or you already have a journey booked, please ensure that you refer to Journey Check before you travel. This will enable you to keep up to date with any potential changes to your planned journey.

https://www.journeycheck.com/northern/

K0ZiCUZv92mYneJPMtXUmzcNs


Proud to be Northern

So - After their response to my complaint I have sent this email as a reply.......

Dear Mr xxxx,

I appreciate your acknowledgement of my complaint however, I believe this to be a sterile and impersonal response taken from your "Northern Rail Examples of Replies to Customer Complaints" Handbook. There is nothing that relates to me personally or the specific incident in your bog-standard reply, and there is nothing mentioned in your response that would reassure me that incidents of this kind will not happen again.

Whilst I fully agree with your statements regarding "revenue staff having a difficult job to do" and your efforts to "reduce fare evasion" I take issue with your comment that "It is the customer's responsibilty to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket". Could you specify the relevant clause in the NRCOC that places that onus onto the customer. I am of the understanding that a customer should purchase a ticket as soon as they are reasonably able to. This does not mean tracking down a conductor on potentially overcrowded trains.

And the response I received - Does nothing to answer questions I asked.............

Dear xxxxx,

I am sorry you are unhappy with my reply.

The part about locating a conductor can be found on our customer promise, please see statement below

You must buy your ticket before you board the train, if there is a ticket office or a machine to do so. If there is no ticket office, or ticket machine at the station, you can buy your ticket on the train at no extra cost. If the ticket machine at the station is card only and you wish to use cash, then you should obtain a promise to pay ticket from the machine and pay at the first available opportunity. If you travel without a valid ticket, we operate a penalty fares scheme and may charge you £20 or twice the single fare for the journey you are making. If you often don’t pay your fare, or any penalty fare we may issue to you, watch out – we can prosecute you. Our full Revenue Protection Policy is available on our website at: www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/ penalty-fares.

Again, we are unable to get involved with penalty fares and the issuing of these.

If there is any other matter I will be happy to answer

Kind regards

xxxxx
Customer Complaints Manager
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
And the response I received - Does nothing to answer questions I asked.............

Dear xxxxx,

I am sorry you are unhappy with my reply.

The part about locating a conductor can be found on our customer promise, please see statement below

You must buy your ticket before you board the train, if there is a ticket office or a machine to do so. If there is no ticket office, or ticket machine at the station, you can buy your ticket on the train at no extra cost. If the ticket machine at the station is card only and you wish to use cash, then you should obtain a promise to pay ticket from the machine and pay at the first available opportunity. If you travel without a valid ticket, we operate a penalty fares scheme and may charge you £20 or twice the single fare for the journey you are making. If you often don’t pay your fare, or any penalty fare we may issue to you, watch out – we can prosecute you. Our full Revenue Protection Policy is available on our website at: www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/ penalty-fares.

Again, we are unable to get involved with penalty fares and the issuing of these.

If there is any other matter I will be happy to answer

Kind regards

xxxxx
Customer Complaints Manager
well - I guess company's can ask you to do things or tell you you must do this or must not do that - but that may not be legally enforceable...
 

4COR

Member
Joined
30 Jan 2019
Messages
441
And the customer charter makes no mention of finding a conductor! All it says is ([URL]https://d2cf7kiw5xizhy.cloudfront.net/images/policy/2019-01/Northern_Customer_Promise.pdf)[/URL]:

You must buy your ticket before you board the train, if there is a ticket office or a machine to do so. If there is no ticket office, or ticket machine at the station, you can buy your ticket on the train at no extra cost. If the ticket machine at the station is card only and you wish to use cash, then you should obtain a promise to pay ticket from the machine and pay at the first available opportunity.

:rolleyes:
 

gray1404

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Joined
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Messages
6,574
Location
Merseyside
Reply to this email and state that you feel they have overlooked your comments in your previous email.

State, "I would like answers to the following specific questions...." then list what the points are they have failed to address.

Personally, I would ask that your ask is reviewed by another member of staff at Managerial level this time. (I note the case worker is a complaint manager, but I highly doubt they are an actual Manager within the company) and, importantly, ask them to issue a Deadlock letter to enable you to take the matter to the rail ombudsman.
 

HSP 2

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Messages
640
Location
11B
I would have thought that it would be in the interest of conductors (are we on the buses) to check the tickets of passengers on Northern as at one time they got a percentage of tickets sold on trains.
 

Wombat

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Joined
12 Jul 2013
Messages
299
And the customer charter makes no mention of finding a conductor! All it says is (https://d2cf7kiw5xizhy.cloudfront.net/images/policy/2019-01/Northern_Customer_Promise.pdf):
Not only that, but there's also no mention of finding a conductor at the link provided by the manager (which is different to the Customer Promise). So the manager has:

1) Falsely stated that "The part about locating a conductor can be found on our customer promise";

2) Pasted some text which makes no mention about locating a conductor;

3) Supplied a link to another set of blurb, which also makes no mention about locating a conductor.

Well done! It's a hat-trick of ineptitude.

I agree with the suggestion to ask for a more senior member of staff to respond, because Mr xxxx is clearly not exercising the competence that his job requires.
 

thejuggler

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Joined
8 Jan 2016
Messages
1,186
Northern are losing the plot and it appears to be across the board.

This morning staff demanded to see my ticket before I had any opportunity to buy one at the station - they were quite aggressive in their attitude when I told them I didn't have one. The TVM was about 5m beyond the area they were stood checking so it should have been no surprise some people may not have tickets at that point

It was quite intimidating on a dark winter morning and totally unnecessary.
 

Bletchleyite

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If they actually wanted to do that, they should designate one specific door (the rearmost, perhaps) for boarding ticketless and make this clear. It's stupid to suggest people should walk up and down the train looking for someone who may be in the other unit or locked away in the cab.
 

ca2102

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2020
Messages
15
Location
Outwood
I have just sent this email to them...............I will post their reply

Dear Mr. XXXX

You seem unable to understand the issues I have raised from my initial complaint therefore I would prefer you to refer this reply to a senior manager for their observations and comments.

Your first reply stated that "It is the customer's responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket" - Where in the National Rail Conditions of Travel is this stated?

Your second reply stated "The part about locating a conductor can be found on our customer promise" - Your customer promise does not state that!

The blurb you have pasted in your second reply does not mention locating a conductor.

The link you provided to your "Legal Penalty-Fares" does not mention locating a conductor.

Where, specifically, does it state that it is the customer's responsibility to locate a conductor????

Why are you quoting "Again, we are unable to get involved with penalty fares and the issuing of these". My initial complaint makes no mention of penalty fares.

All I asked for in my initial complaint was a review of your procedures to prevent other customers experiencing obnoxious behaviour from Northern Staff. Now I would like to know where it states that I have to locate a conductor to purchase a ticket if a ticket machine is out-of-order.
 

HSP 2

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Northern are losing the plot and it appears to be across the board.

This morning staff demanded to see my ticket before I had any opportunity to buy one at the station - they were quite aggressive in their attitude when I told them I didn't have one. The TVM was about 5m beyond the area they were stood checking so it should have been no surprise some people may not have tickets at that point

It was quite intimidating on a dark winter morning and totally unnecessary.

Did you point out to them that you were going to the TVM to get a ticket?

A lot of these people are not Northern staff but just agency workers.
 

gray1404

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Northern are losing the plot and it appears to be across the board.

This morning staff demanded to see my ticket before I had any opportunity to buy one at the station - they were quite aggressive in their attitude when I told them I didn't have one. The TVM was about 5m beyond the area they were stood checking so it should have been no surprise some people may not have tickets at that point

It was quite intimidating on a dark winter morning and totally unnecessary.

I would certainly put in a complaint about that. It is totally unacceptable behavior and, just like how attempts to defraud the railway need to be challenged, so does aggressive behavior on the railway.
 

thejuggler

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Joined
8 Jan 2016
Messages
1,186
Did you point out to them that you were going to the TVM to get a ticket?

A lot of these people are not Northern staff but just agency workers.

I did point out that I didn't have a ticket because I hadn't yet reached the ticket machine which was behind them. They then followed and both stood over me whilst I bought a ticket. More intimidation.

If they have Northern badges and uniform to me they are Northern staff.

A formal complaint about their behaviour has been lodged.
 

gray1404

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I did point out that I didn't have a ticket because I hadn't yet reached the ticket machine which was behind them. They then followed and both stood over me whilst I bought a ticket. More intimidation.

If they have Northern badges and uniform to me they are Northern staff.

A formal complaint about their behaviour has been lodged.

And rightly so too. That is totally unacceptable. Be prepared to appeal your complaint and take it to the Rail Ombudsman if Northern fail to address your complaint seriously. I would expect them to agree this sort of conduct is unacceptable and offer assurances action will be taken and it will not happen again.
 

Bletchleyite

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I did point out that I didn't have a ticket because I hadn't yet reached the ticket machine which was behind them. They then followed and both stood over me whilst I bought a ticket. More intimidation.

If they have Northern badges and uniform to me they are Northern staff.

A formal complaint about their behaviour has been lodged.

This is the same TOC, of course, that have put (or are putting, I forget) barriers on a station at entrance level where the ticket office is on the platforms (Rochdale). Grossly incompetent doesn't even start to describe it.
 

SteveM70

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Messages
3,800
This is the same TOC, of course, that have put (or are putting, I forget) barriers on a station at entrance level where the ticket office is on the platforms (Rochdale). Grossly incompetent doesn't even start to describe it.

They’ve been there a couple of years or so. The only thing I can think of to explain it is that they decided Rochdale must get a gateline, and then realised the only place one would fit would be in the subway, as I’d imagine installing barriers between the ticket office and platforms would create trip/fall risks due to proximity to the top of the stairs. (And need two sets of gates as well)
 

Bletchleyite

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They’ve been there a couple of years or so. The only thing I can think of to explain it is that they decided Rochdale must get a gateline, and then realised the only place one would fit would be in the subway, as I’d imagine installing barriers between the ticket office and platforms would create trip/fall risks due to proximity to the top of the stairs. (And need two sets of gates as well)

Did Rochdale ever have booking-office-operated turnstiles like some Manchester area stations of that vintage did? I forget. Brinnington (or was it Bredbury) definitely did.
 

HSP 2

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I did point out that I didn't have a ticket because I hadn't yet reached the ticket machine which was behind them. They then followed and both stood over me whilst I bought a ticket. More intimidation.

If they have Northern badges and uniform to me they are Northern staff.

A formal complaint about their behaviour has been lodged.

And righty so it should be, did you get a photo of there badges or their names?
 

packermac

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16 Sep 2019
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Swanage
I did point out that I didn't have a ticket because I hadn't yet reached the ticket machine which was behind them. They then followed and both stood over me whilst I bought a ticket. More intimidation.

If they have Northern badges and uniform to me they are Northern staff.

A formal complaint about their behaviour has been lodged.
Ou
Northern are losing the plot and it appears to be across the board.

This morning staff demanded to see my ticket before I had any opportunity to buy one at the station - they were quite aggressive in their attitude when I told them I didn't have one. The TVM was about 5m beyond the area they were stood checking so it should have been no surprise some people may not have tickets at that point

It was quite intimidating on a dark winter morning and totally unnecessary.
Out of interest is this station in a penalty fare zone and if so where is the sign located saying that?
If it is then maybe the staff were correct and it is the TVM that is in the wrong place. As I understand it (from the London area) you need a ticket even to be on the platform in a penalty fare zone.
Of course interesting debate if the TVM is located so it does not allow you to purchase without going into the zone.
 

thejuggler

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8 Jan 2016
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The TVM is after the car park, before the penalty signage and the platforms. I was stopped whilst walking across the car park.
 

packermac

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The TVM is after the car park, before the penalty signage and the platforms. I was stopped whilst walking across the car park.
Than that is not only rank out of order it is laughable.
Presumably the car park is not managed by Northern but some car park company, so they may have been infringing on their "area of control"
 

sheff1

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Out of interest is this station in a penalty fare zone and if so where is the sign located saying that?
If it is then maybe the staff were correct and it is the TVM that is in the wrong place. As I understand it (from the London area) you need a ticket even to be on the platform in a penalty fare zone.

You seem to be confusing a 'penalty fare zone' with a Compulsory Ticket Area.
 

ca2102

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2 Jan 2020
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Location
Outwood
Hello, On Sunday 15th December I went to Outwood Station to catch the 13:01 train to Leeds. The ticket machine was out-of-order so when I boarded the train I was hoping to buy a ticket from the guard. This did not happen so when I arrived at Leeds station I went to the Ticket Office and purchased an Outwood-Leeds single ticket for £3.30p. (Outwood is the last station before Leeds) I had not walked 5 metres from the Ticket Office when I was stopped by 2 staff (one female and the other male). The female staff member asked me where I had travelled from and could she see my ticket. (If I did not know better I am sure that they heard me make my purchase at the Ticket Office). She then said that Outwood station was conducting a "blocking excercise" (or something like that) and could I show her a "ticket/voucher" that should have been given to me by two members of staff that were at Outwood station. I told her there were no staff on the platform at Outwood but she insisted that there were. I re-affirmed my statement that there were no staff at Outwood station and her reply both surprised and upset me. She said that if I could not produce a "ticket/voucher" that should have been given to me by two staff at Outwood station then she would have to assume that I must have travelled from another station. This, to me, meant that I was being accused of being a fare dodger. All this was happening on the concourse whilst commuters were passing and to say that I was embarrassed and humiliated was no under-statement. I showed her my driving licence with my Outwood address on it and again insisted that there were no staff present at Outwood station when I boarded the train. She then told me to wait and proceeded to make a mobile telephone call in front of me. I heard her describing myself (age, clothing etc.) and asking if they (the two staff) were at Outwood station. She then asked them if they had left the station at all. They must have admitted that they had, at some point, left the station because she proceeded to tell them that they must let her know if they ever leave the station, even for a moment. After the telephone call ended she told me that her colleague (the male member of staff who was stood with her) would deal with the two members of staff at Outwood station. She then said I could continue my journey. Not a sorry, not an apology, nothing. The whole experience has left a bad taste in my mouth and I am still angry about the whole episode. I am 61 years old and have always paid my dues. To be falsely accused and made to feel like I did is shameful on Northern Railways part. I do not expect anything to happen because there were two staff members present and it is their word against mine but I will not forget the experience anytime soon.

Here is the response I received from my complaint........... (A mealy mouthed apology at best - I can imagine the grinding of teeth whilst it was being typed).

Dear xxxxx,

Whilst unacceptable behaviour of a staff member cannot be condoned, our revenue staff have a difficult job to do, ensuring that people who arrive into the station have an appropriate ticket for travel so that we, as a responsible and subsidised business manage and help to reduce fare evasion across the railway industry.

It is a condition of the Railway Bylaws that if a ticket office or ticket machine is provided all customers must be in possession of a ticket before getting on a train. We respectfully ask our customers to make use of these facilities before joining our services. When our ticket office is closed and there are no ticket machines available it is possible to purchase a ticket from the conductor on the train. It is the customer’s responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket. Essentially, the act of using a train service without a valid ticket is illegal and can result in a criminal record.

Reducing the number of people who travel without a ticket is not only in our interest as the operator but also in the interest of our fare paying customers. No-one wants to pay more for their tickets, because some people avoid paying and there is loss of income due to people travelling without tickets, it reduces the money available to us to invest in a better rail service. It is imperative that our staff approach customers in a reasonable, polite and professional manner and put our customers at ease if it is felt that it is appropriate to question them about their ticket or travel arrangements. I am sorry if you feel that this was not the case on this occasion. To this end your comments regarding the attitude of the staff member will be passed to the relevant manager for investigation.

Kind regards

xxxxxxx
Customer Complaints Manager

Telephone: 0800 200 6060
Smart Ticketing: 0333 222 0127
Post: FREEPOST Northern Railway

www.northernrailway.co.uk

If you are planning a journey, or you already have a journey booked, please ensure that you refer to Journey Check before you travel. This will enable you to keep up to date with any potential changes to your planned journey.

https://www.journeycheck.com/northern/

K0ZiCUZv92mYneJPMtXUmzcNs


Proud to be Northern

So - After their response to my complaint I have sent this email as a reply.......

Dear Mr xxxx,

I appreciate your acknowledgement of my complaint however, I believe this to be a sterile and impersonal response taken from your "Northern Rail Examples of Replies to Customer Complaints" Handbook. There is nothing that relates to me personally or the specific incident in your bog-standard reply, and there is nothing mentioned in your response that would reassure me that incidents of this kind will not happen again.

Whilst I fully agree with your statements regarding "revenue staff having a difficult job to do" and your efforts to "reduce fare evasion" I take issue with your comment that "It is the customer's responsibilty to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket". Could you specify the relevant clause in the NRCOC that places that onus onto the customer. I am of the understanding that a customer should purchase a ticket as soon as they are reasonably able to. This does not mean tracking down a conductor on potentially overcrowded trains.

And the response I received - Does nothing to answer questions I asked.............

Dear xxxxx,

I am sorry you are unhappy with my reply.

The part about locating a conductor can be found on our customer promise, please see statement below

You must buy your ticket before you board the train, if there is a ticket office or a machine to do so. If there is no ticket office, or ticket machine at the station, you can buy your ticket on the train at no extra cost. If the ticket machine at the station is card only and you wish to use cash, then you should obtain a promise to pay ticket from the machine and pay at the first available opportunity. If you travel without a valid ticket, we operate a penalty fares scheme and may charge you £20 or twice the single fare for the journey you are making. If you often don’t pay your fare, or any penalty fare we may issue to you, watch out – we can prosecute you. Our full Revenue Protection Policy is available on our website at: www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/ penalty-fares.

Again, we are unable to get involved with penalty fares and the issuing of these.

If there is any other matter I will be happy to answer

Kind regards

xxxxx
Customer Complaints Manager

I have just sent this email to them...............I will post their reply

Dear Mr. XXXX

You seem unable to understand the issues I have raised from my initial complaint therefore I would prefer you to refer this reply to a senior manager for their observations and comments.

Your first reply stated that "It is the customer's responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket" - Where in the National Rail Conditions of Travel is this stated?

Your second reply stated "The part about locating a conductor can be found on our customer promise" - Your customer promise does not state that!

The blurb you have pasted in your second reply does not mention locating a conductor.

The link you provided to your "Legal Penalty-Fares" does not mention locating a conductor.

Where, specifically, does it state that it is the customer's responsibility to locate a conductor????

Why are you quoting "Again, we are unable to get involved with penalty fares and the issuing of these". My initial complaint makes no mention of penalty fares.

All I asked for in my initial complaint was a review of your procedures to prevent other customers experiencing obnoxious behaviour from Northern Staff. Now I would like to know where it states that I have to locate a conductor to purchase a ticket if a ticket machine is out-of-order.

I have now received a reply from a Customer Solutions Team Manager as opposed to a Customer Complaints Manager but their response (below) was inadequate

Dear xxx,

Thank you for your prompt response.
Joe has passed your correspondence over to myself, in regards to where it states that you can locate a conductor, if you take a look at Page 9 of the National Conditions of Travel you will find the below passage of text

INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a Ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination - Page 9 national conditions of travel https://d2cf7kiw5xizhy.cloudfront.net/images/policy/2019-01/Northern_Customer_Promise.pdf

The above statement is given in reference to when ticket buying facilities are not made available to you at your departure station.

The conductor can be located towards the rear end of the train.

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind Regards,

xxxxx
Customer Solutions Team Manager

Telephone: 0800 200 6060
Smart Ticketing: 0333 222 0127
Post: FREEPOST Northern Railway
 
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