Not having a valid ticket upon my person...and yet I did.

[Flamingo]

Well, the two issues are different:
1. You were unable to show a valid ticket for your journey - this is a bylaw offence, and resulted in a penalty fare.
2. You claim the staff dealing with you did not behave in an appropriate manner.

I don't see how the staffs attitude affected your ability to show them a ticket. It usually starts "can I see your ticket?". If you show one, there is not much grounds for anything else. Especially at 6am, I can't see they would have been that awake to start with an attitude. I certainly don't.

 

[RJ]

Oh, and if someone has any experience as to when appealing has actually worked, I'm very curious to hear under what circumstances they are successful. So far it seems an appeal is only successful if the person issuing it makes a mistake on the form.

I once paid a Penalty Fare in full at time of issue and appealed, without success. Upon a futher letter to the appeals people, the decision was promptly reversed, I received a cheque with a full refund in the post and the PF was stricken off my record.

However, in my case, I was not in breach of a single term of the Railway Byelaws, NRCoC, TfL CoC or any other contracts entered into when I made that journey. I was backed up by TfL who provided me with evidence and a letter to confirm that I was not in the wrong. In the letter to the IAS, I specifically stated that I did not want the appeal to be considered on the grounds of goodwill, discretion or compassion. Presumably many appeals are of a sob story nature from people who have breached the contract.

You were quite clearly in breach of Byelaw 18(2) and NRCoC Condition 22, you're the one who failed to fulfill your obligations so IMO it's best just to accept the PF and move on. Clutching at straws is only going to be of detriment to yourself.

 

[jon0844]

This thread isn't just about that though. It's an attack on the staff (4 or 5 members towering over them), accusing a valid ticket holder of having an invalid ticket and the conclusion that it means being unable to travel by train again.

We're told an official complaint has now been made, so I don't know if the OP wants a full apology, compensation or something else - but the failure to show the ticket (and the rather odd circumstances around it, as if the RPIs stopped him from being able to search for the ticket, or the stress made it impossible to think that the ticket might be mixed up with loads of others) seems like a red herring now.

 

[Ferret]

Why is it that whenever a customer is told something they don't want to hear, the default gripe I read on here is that the attitude of the staff stank (or similar)? I'm curious...

 

[MikeWh]

being placed under stress does in fact hinder your cognitive abilities; particularly that of memory.

Well that is something I am well aware of, and I sometimes think that unless you've been placed in such a position you can't really appreciate what it feels like. I remember being on a train to Peterborough at Kings Cross and casually feeling to check my railcard wallet was where I thought it was. My happiness rapidly turned to panic and despair as pocket after pocket was turned out on the table with no luck. A trip along the train to return to the buffet yielded no further joy and it was only when I got back and remembered a little used back pocket that relief swept away the panic. And all this was without the pressure of the TM standing over me, let alone a number of RPIs. Add to that being woken up and not being fully with it and I can begin to understand what you must have been going through.

 

[jon0844]

I've had those panic attacks many times, over a ticket or a mobile phone and other things. It's not a nice feeling. Only Monday had me panic that I'd lost my BlackBerry, when it would later turn out to have slipped underneath some papers in my rucksack. As it was on silent, I couldn't even call it.

However, I think RPIs can tell the difference between the look of panic when someone checks everything over and over (and how they do it), than someone who typically just takes ages and hopes the RPI will get bored and move on.

We've all seen the person without a ticket that takes ages, and seems to just do everything in slow motion as they haven't really got any clue as to how to fake it. Those who panic will be tearing their clothes apart and should be quite obvious to tell apart.

In few cases would someone simply forget to check and sit there, refusing to give details until being given a PF.. then find it almost immediately after amongst a load of old tickets that had been forgotten about.

 

[Flamingo]

The "Pocket Dance" as I call it, I'll usually make helpful remarks like "Have you looked in there?", "You looked in that one", etc...

 

[jon0844]

The "Pocket Dance" as I call it, I'll usually make helpful remarks like "Have you looked in there?", "You looked in that one", etc...

Out of interest, have you had people who really did lose their ticket (and subsequently find it) and did you notice the difference in how they acted - given they knew they had one, unlike those who knew they didn't?

For one, I'd imagine those doing the 'pocket dance' aren't even trying to look for the ticket (that doesn't exist) and are more likely looking around and at you, to see how you're reacting and hoping that you'll let them off. The one that really has got a ticket but can't find it is probably almost forgetting you are there.

 

[Flamingo]

Pretty much what you said, the body language is different.

Had a chap a while ago, at the bar, few drinks on him.
"My mate has my ticket"
"Where is he?"
"On the train somewhere, I don't know where"
"What's his name?"
"Can't remember"
So I go to the PA
"If there is a Mr Beavis on-board, your friend at the bar needs his ticket!"
Go back to the bar - "He isn't here, pay up".

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Why is it that whenever a customer is told something they don't want to hear, the default gripe I read on here is that the attitude of the staff stank (or similar)? I'm curious...

Funny you should ask that, because I too have definitely noticed a repeating pattern from people on here who haven't had tickets.
Its at complete odds with my experience when I've seen passengers without tickets being treated with courtesy, professionalism and, where appropriate, sympathy.

"If there is a Mr Beavis on-board, your friend at the bar needs his ticket!"

I swear your humour will get you into trouble one day!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Refusing to give name and address seems a bit like avoiding something. I am seeing it from the ticket inspectors point of view. What is he/she hiding ?.

I have messed up on a car park ticket. Did not intend to avoid paying but its tough. Can only blame myself.

It should work both ways though. I do wish TOCs could be punished/penalised for overcrowding/delays/hopeless information. If its good enough for us then its good enough for them - especially as its usually a "repeat offence". Where is my human rights book. Perhaps I should get a discount if I cannot get a seat. Occurs to me that the result would be a correctional fares rise. So I would rather travel cheaply at the risk of not getting a seat than pay more.

The OP had a ticket, failed to find it. The OP is the only one to blame. But I would appeal to the TOCs better nature and make an appeal. Dont make it so complicated by not trusting them its, originally, the OPs fault. Dont waste too much time and effort on it. If the OP fails then do appeal the decision. Leave out the complaining though as it will only make them dig their heels in.

Good luck and dont make the same mistake again.

 

[RJ]

Appeals should only be upheld if the TOC has failed to stick to its side of the contract IMO.

The time to produce evidence of holding a valid ticket is when the inspector asked for it.

To those going on about honour systems and all the rest of it, I think it's a stupid idea. There are people out there who would take the p*ss even more than they already do. Flashing with confidence, using invalid tickets/rovers with obscure locations that the inspector is unlikely to know, using out of date season tickets, travellers sharing tickets then claiming ticket was lost/forgotten and so on are methods commonly employed by fare evaders to try and dupe inspectors.

A ticket is worth money. If you lose it then someone else can pick it up and get a free ride. Why should a duplicate ticket then be given free of charge, the railway should foot the bill? If you can't produce it when asked then magically find it later, how can you prove that it wasn't given to someone else to use? With great difficulty I imagine.

I don't think that looking after a ticket that has been paid for is a huge responsibility. Being under duress is quite a feeble excuse
. You know your ticket might be inspected, yet claim to panic and lose complete control of your senses when asked to produce it? It's hardly like having knife held to your throat is it? I say that as somebody who has used trains almost daily for the last 10 or so years.

In any case, if you are penalised for breaching the CoC, it costs money to process the paperwork. If you get a full refund then the railway loses money. Absolutely fine if the penalty was issued erroneously (it cannot and should not be upheld if the staff didn't obide by the rules) but not so fair if if was purely down to the passenger not fulfilling their responsibilities.

As for the overcrowding/poor service argument, why not take the TOC to court if you feel a crime has been committed?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Appeals should only be upheld if the TOC has failed to stick to its side of the contract IMO.

. . . . .

As for the overcrowding/poor service argument, why not take the TOC to court if you feel a crime has been committed?

Why such a confrontational attitude?
(No I don't want you posting personal reasons on a public forum - but a rational response might be helpful).

Sure, there are chancers and rogues in society, and we have to accept that there probably always will be, at least to some extent. Just as there will always be disorganised and forgetful passengers. I previously posted the suggestion that one day that will probably be me!

My post above should make my own view quite clear: I find railway staff to be pleasant, courteous and profesional (and some are very good company and some are occasionally going to be having an off-day. As might I!). But why are you so agressively inclined against the passenger? Why taunt a passenger who has been delayed, or left cold, or had to buy a second ticket for the same journey, or unable to get home, or distressed, or peniless, or misinformed with "why not take the TOC to Court?"?
That is NOT a professional and courteous attitude, is it?

So why such a confrontational attitude?

 

[Ferret]

Out of interest, have you had people who really did lose their ticket (and subsequently find it) and did you notice the difference in how they acted - given they knew they had one, unlike those who knew they didn't?

For one, I'd imagine those doing the 'pocket dance' aren't even trying to look for the ticket (that doesn't exist) and are more likely looking around and at you, to see how you're reacting and hoping that you'll let them off. The one that really has got a ticket but can't find it is probably almost forgetting you are there.

I've had that happen lots of times - the look of panic in their eyes can be quite a giveaway! I always tend to give the person 5 minutes or more to look for a ticket by carrying on with my revenue duties, and then come back to the person concerned. I guess it probably makes it worse for them if I'm stood over them like an ogre!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Funny you should ask that, because I too have definitely noticed a repeating pattern from people on here who haven't had tickets.
Its at complete odds with my experience when I've seen passengers without tickets being treated with courtesy, professionalism and, where appropriate, sympathy.

I understand that staff can have off days - I may well be as guilty as the next man here - but it does seem to crop up a lot. My theory is that if a customer doesn't like what is being said to them, ie 'your ticket is not valid' then he automatically has a bad attitude. I do feel sometimes that some customers seem to think their rights far outweigh their responsibility to hold a valid ticket.

 

[RPI]

If I see someone who looks genuinely frantic about losing their ticket i'll give them five minutes to find it and go back, if they still haven't found it i'll issue a UFN or nil paid PF and tell them to come and find me if they find their ticket before they get off, I have been known to cancel the PF notice in such cases when they have found it later on and come to find me!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If I see someone who looks genuinely frantic about losing their ticket i'll give them five minutes to find it and go back, if they still haven't found it i'll issue a UFN or nil paid PF and tell them to come and find me if they find their ticket before they get off, I have been known to cancel the PF notice in such cases when they have found it later on and come to find me!

You couldn't be any more reasonable that if you tried! Thank you.

 

[bb21]

What I find fascinating about the 'two issues being separate' argument is that they occurred in succession by the same people. It was the staff's demeanor and behaviour towards the both of us. The only difference being that I reacted to the stress differently, and as you may be aware, being placed under stress does in fact hinder your cognitive abilities; particularly that of memory.

What yorkie said is correct. Staff's attitude, if they were rude to you, does not constitute a valid reason why you could not remember where your ticket was.

I have sympathy for you as a good night turned into a bit of a bust, but you now sounds more and more like you want to put one over the TOC and it's becoming a bit of an egoistic trip. Why put yourself under this amount of stress to possibly have very little chance of overturning your penalty fare? There are far more important things to worry about in life than £40.

If you're serious about putting one over the TOCs, there is a lot you can learn from this board about how to save money, sometimes of a massive proportion, legitimately on your future trips. £40 is nothing compared to what you will then save by not having to pay rip-off through fares on many journeys in the future. Then you can turn around and smile victoriously at the TOCs.

 

[missinggun]

What yorkie said is correct. Staff's attitude, if they were rude to you, does not constitute a valid reason why you could not remember where your ticket was.

I have sympathy for you as a good night turned into a bit of a bust, but you now sounds more and more like you want to put one over the TOC and it's becoming a bit of an egoistic trip. Why put yourself under this amount of stress to possibly have very little chance of overturning your penalty fare? There are far more important things to worry about in life than £40.

If you're serious about putting one over the TOCs, there is a lot you can learn from this board about how to save money, sometimes of a massive proportion, legitimately on your future trips. £40 is nothing compared to what you will then save by not having to pay rip-off through fares on many journeys in the future. Then you can turn around and smile victoriously at the TOCs.

I'm not sure if anyone here has studied anything to do with stress, memory, or cognitive function, but if you have then please speak up.

My friend has since informed me that during the time I was unconscious and they were discussing with him where my ticket was that they looked through my wallet for it. Is this reasonable as well?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well that is something I am well aware of, and I sometimes think that unless you've been placed in such a position you can't really appreciate what it feels like. I remember being on a train to Peterborough at Kings Cross and casually feeling to check my railcard wallet was where I thought it was. My happiness rapidly turned to panic and despair as pocket after pocket was turned out on the table with no luck. A trip along the train to return to the buffet yielded no further joy and it was only when I got back and remembered a little used back pocket that relief swept away the panic. And all this was without the pressure of the TM standing over me, let alone a number of RPIs. Add to that being woken up and not being fully with it and I can begin to understand what you must have been going through.

I suppose everyone's a cynic these days, me included.

The problem with the events leading up to me being unable to locate my ticket is that nobody here was there to witness or understand the situation; so nobody can be empathetic toward what actually occurred.

I guess that's that. As I said previously, thanks for everyone's input. I'll leave it up to the powers that be to decide whether I am guilty or innocent.

 

[jon0844]

My friend has since informed me that during the time I was unconscious and they were discussing with him where my ticket was that they looked through my wallet for it. Is this reasonable as well?

I am sorry but now I really do think you're making things up.

This is like all the additional info that kept coming from a certain wheelchair user from Guide Bridge. When the story started to fall apart, shocking new revelations came out.

 

[missinggun]

I am sorry but now I really do think you're making things up.

This is like all the additional info that kept coming from a certain wheelchair user from Guide Bridge. When the story started to fall apart, shocking new revelations came out.

Well I know you think I'm making things up. That's well and truly been established.

 

[sheff1]

My theory is that if a customer doesn't like what is being said to them, ie 'your ticket is not valid' then he automatically has a bad attitude.

I think that in the vast majority of cases you are correct.

On a very few occasions, maybe 5 or 6 in total out of many thousands of journeys, I have been told 'this ticket is not valid' or 'you can't use that here' when the ticket was perfectly valid. In all but one of those cases the inspector did eventually accept the ticket with varying degrees of good grace and they were not impolite.

One, however, who most definitely had a bad attitude, would not concede he was incorrect and said he would call the police to meet the train. I said I would be most grateful if he would call the police so I could file a complaint about being slandered and accused of fraud in front of other passengers. If truth be told I was quite disappointed when no police were in evidence at my destination

 

[jon0844]

Why would they have gone through your wallet (was it out in the open?) if they hadn't even asked for your ticket at that point?

Your story has to at least sound believable to have any credibility.

Are you going to say one of the members of staff tried to rape you next?

As far as I'm concerned, you're now in the 'troll' category and so there's really nothing else for me to say. Good luck with wherever you intend to take this story further.

 

[missinggun]

Thank goodness for that then.

 

[RJ]

Why such a confrontational attitude?
(No I don't want you posting personal reasons on a public forum - but a rational response might be helpful).

Sure, there are chancers and rogues in society, and we have to accept that there probably always will be, at least to some extent. Just as there will always be disorganised and forgetful passengers. I previously posted the suggestion that one day that will probably be me!

My post above should make my own view quite clear: I find railway staff to be pleasant, courteous and profesional (and some are very good company and some are occasionally going to be having an off-day. As might I!). But why are you so agressively inclined against the passenger? Why taunt a passenger who has been delayed, or left cold, or had to buy a second ticket for the same journey, or unable to get home, or distressed, or peniless, or misinformed with "why not take the TOC to Court?"?
That is NOT a professional and courteous attitude, is it?

So why such a confrontational attitude?

So you're saying that it's ok to justify not holding a ticket with "but you run a crap service?"
I don't agree, the point I was making was that it's not a justification at all and that fare payers have ways of claiming compensation which don't involve fare evasion. We both know that that is not tantamount to taunting unfortunate passengers.

 

[djw1981]

If you were unconscious (ie unrousable) then your friend should have requested an ambulance as you were in need of medical attention. If you were drunk, asleep or incapable due to alcohol, then firstly that is technically a criminal offence in its own right, and secondly that probably explains your inability to find a ticket more than stress does.

We have all had periods when we couldn't find a ticket, but a methoidical seearch of possible locatiosn from likeliest (wallet etc) to least likely (coat pockets etc) tends to yield a correct result.

You are running in circles now. Ir you want to appeal your fine, do it. if you want toi complain about staff then do so (being thekful that they did impose a fine on you, as it gives identifying details of the staff involved, thus they have helped your complaint).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If I see someone who looks genuinely frantic about losing their ticket i'll give them five minutes to find it and go back, if they still haven't found it i'll issue a UFN or nil paid PF and tell them to come and find me if they find their ticket before they get off, I have been known to cancel the PF notice in such cases when they have found it later on and come to find me!

Which is basically what I do. The give away is when you come back 5 minutes later and they are staring out of the window avoiding eye contact / pretending to be asleep hoping you will forget about them. I normally say to people, after a reasonable time, that they will have to buy another ticket and if they can find their original one before either I or they get off then I'll refund it. 99 times out of 100 they never manage to find the original one that they claim to have lost.

 

[Captain Chaos]

What a load of absolute rubbish.

I used to work for the Revenue protection department at Reading. In fact I still work for the company now as a guard.

I know most of the Revenue department (many of them personally). At no point would we ever look through someones wallet to search for their ticket. It opens you up to potential allegations of theft and the only time a wallet would be searched would be by the passenger themselves (or their travelling party) or by a BTP officer. And to say that this was done whilst you were incapacitated is just barmy. If a passanger is unconcious regardless of the cause our FIRST and ONLY priority is to ensure that medical attention is arranged ASAP. The revenue issue at the point would be irrelevant.

I find it incredible that the OP can claim that we would do this. It simply wouldn't happen.

My only guess is that the OP is a troll.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

What a load of absolute rubbish.

I used to work for the Revenue protection department at Reading. In fact I still work for the company now as a guard.

I know most of the Revenue department (many of them personally). At no point would we ever look through someones wallet to search for their ticket. It opens you up to potential allegations of theft and the only time a wallet would be searched would be by the passenger themselves (or their travelling party) or by a BTP officer. And to say that this was done whilst you were incapacitated is just barmy. If a passanger is unconcious regardless of the cause our FIRST and ONLY priority is to ensure that medical attention is arranged ASAP. The revenue issue at the point would be irrelevant.

I find it incredible that the OP can claim that we would do this. It simply wouldn't happen.

My only guess is that the OP is a troll.

A woman wrote in once a few years ago claiming that I had stolen her (17.5 year old) daughter's ticket, not given her a receipt or given her a new ticket to continue her journey, had taken her purse off her and shaken it upside down on the table to see if she had any money on her, and basically left her stranded.

This was all complete rubbish, and the download from my ticket machine and the on train CCTV showed it to be rubbish.

The fact that she was using a child ticket and as she claimed to have no more money I was reporting her via a TIR to revenue protection was completely irrelevant.

 

[Ferret]

I'm not sure if anyone here has studied anything to do with stress, memory, or cognitive function, but if you have then please speak up.

My friend has since informed me that during the time I was unconscious and they were discussing with him where my ticket was that they looked through my wallet for it. Is this reasonable as well?

Now we get to the nitty gritty! Are we to deduce that you were unfit through alcohol (it's a byelaw offence to be drunk on the railway), and couldn't find your ticket because of this?! I think this is definitely one to file under the heading of 'lessons in life' and to be put down to experience....

 

[Greenback]

I agree with Captain Chaos. I have seen FGW revenue protection squads in action and they ar eunfailingly polite, proffessional and firm but fair.

If there is a problem with a passenger they will usually summon the Team Leader, which is the only way that there would be four or five people dealing with a customer, as they normally go through the train in ones or twos, depending on the service. And, naturally, it;s difficult to do anything but 'tower over' a passenger, as they are usually standing compared to the passengers seated position!