Not Valid on High Speed.

[Dccoombes]

Hi All,

So this morning i was running later for work and missed my usual train - i have a monthly travel card which allows me from Gravesend into London Terminals. As i've just started a new job i didnt want to be late so decided to use the highspeed service into St Pancras and see if my ticket would get me through.

As i was already through the barrier i did not return through to purchase an upgrade and ran to the other platform to get on this service. Upon arriving at St Pancras my ticket didnt work through the barriers and i decided just to tap through as i was already running late. This is when i was stopped by two plain clothed ticket inspectors who proceeded to take my details and place me under caution.

Are they likely to take into consideration i did have a valid travelcard? Or because it wasn't valid on the high speed will they take that as fare evasion.

I have recently moved to Kent and within the first month of being there i go two fines back to back from Greenwich to Gravesend as there was no where to buy a ticket . I did dispute these cases but to no avail and just paid the fine. Will these be taken into consideration when looking into prosecute me? I am assuming so.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Clip]

Having 2 previous PFs isnt going to look to good upon you - Greenwich has TVMs from memory and doing the same thing twice just seems rather silly - as does using your Oyster.

If i was looking at your history when looking into this case i would certainly be asking you if you have done this often and possibly try and pull your Oyster history from TfL to see this.

You are best off waiting to see what they say to you when they write to you with what course of action they will take and then come back to us with that letter.

Start saving.

 

[Harlequin]

I think the main point is that, if your ticket isn't valid on the fast service you travelled on, you were travelling without a valid ticket. Your previous isn't going to help you either, especially as there's rarely no opportunity to purchase a ticket from Greenwich / Gravesend, both of which have pretty lengthy ticket office opening hours and ticket machines.

There are far more learned contributors than myself here, however one piece of advice that I would give you is to change your username if it enables you to be identified - TOCs do read these forums and will have your details.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi All,

So this morning i was running later for work and missed my usual train - i have a monthly travel card which allows me from Gravesend into London Terminals. As i've just started a new job i didnt want to be late so decided to use the highspeed service into St Pancras and see if my ticket would get me through.

As i was already through the barrier i did not return through to purchase an upgrade and ran to the other platform to get on this service. Upon arriving at St Pancras my ticket didnt work through the barriers and i decided just to tap through as i was already running late. This is when i was stopped by two plain clothed ticket inspectors who proceeded to take my details and place me under caution.

Are they likely to take into consideration i did have a valid travelcard? Or because it wasn't valid on the high speed will they take that as fare evasion.

I have recently moved to Kent and within the first month of being there i go two fines back to back from Greenwich to Gravesend as there was no where to buy a ticket . I did dispute these cases but to no avail and just paid the fine. Will these be taken into consideration when looking into prosecute me? I am assuming so.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

What did you say to the plain-clothed ticket inspectors? Did you give your correct details, and what station did you say you had boarded?

An ordinary Travelcard is not valid on HS1, so that is the reason why it would have been rejected at the gateline.

The fact that you failed to purchase the upgrade before boarding, and that you tried to tap out without having tapped in, whilst perhaps justified to you because of your late-running, may be seen by an outsider as evidence of intent to avoid payment. It is unfortunate for you that it is not possible to excess the route of a season ticket - this being possible for regular non-season tickets onboard the train or even at your destination without any penalty.

If you are indeed prosecuted for failing to pay the fare due before boarding, with intent to avoid payment of the correct fare, that would be under Section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. It is an offence that, upon conviction, carries a criminal record unfortunately.

The fact that you have recently had Penalty Fares (I presume this is what you mean when you refer to fines) will probably not assist your case, though there is a chance that this will not be looked at.

At the moment there is not a great deal you can do - you'll just have to wait until they write to you. But when they do write, we can advise further as to what the different approaches are.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think the main point is that, if your ticket isn't valid on the fast service you travelled on, you were travelling without a valid ticket. Your previous isn't going to help you either, especially as there's rarely no opportunity to purchase a ticket from Greenwich / Gravesend, both of which have pretty lengthy ticket office opening hours and ticket machines.

There are far more learned contributors than myself here, however one piece of advice that I would give you is to change your username if it enables you to be identified - TOCs do read these forums and will have your details.

I think the mere fact that we are told the date, location and the starting station (along with the ticket held) is probably enough to identify OP from the TOC. If OP is looking for anonymity, a username change is the least they should consider.

 

[Dccoombes]

What did you say to the plain-clothed ticket inspectors? Did you give your correct details, and what station did you say you had boarded?

Yep - i gave them all my details.

whilst perhaps justified to you because of your late-running, may be seen by an outsider as evidence of intent to avoid payment.

I dont think the inspectors were aware i had tapped out - im not entirely sure i did myself as i was rushing to get through.

At the moment there is not a great deal you can do - you'll just have to wait until they write to you. But when they do write, we can advise further as to what the different approaches are.

I have already written a letter - do you advise i hold off until they send me a letter?

Not sure i need anonymity - its pretty open and shut, i didnt buy an upgrade for the highspeed. The irony of all this, i was an hour late to work and now probably looking at a criminal conviction. Amazing.

Do the people running the prosecutions actually read the replies and take into consideration circumstances?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yep - i gave them all my details.



I dont think the inspectors were aware i had tapped out - im not entirely sure i did myself as i was rushing to get through.



I have already written a letter - do you advise i hold off until they send me a letter?

Not sure i need anonymity - its pretty open and shut, i didnt buy an upgrade for the highspeed. The irony of all this, i was an hour late to work and now probably looking at a criminal conviction. Amazing.

Do the people running the prosecutions actually read the replies and take into consideration circumstances?

I wouldn't send anything until you get their letter. For all you know the best case scenario is that they simply offer to settle for the unpaid fare plus a small administration fee (though I can't say how likely that is).

The prosecutions case workers will always read what is replied - as after all, there may be circumstances which mean that prosecution is entirely unwarranted (e.g. legitimately no opportunity to buy before boarding, disability preventing the use of ticketing facilities etc.). But running late will not be a consideration for them - it will, at best, be a reason you use to try and convince them there was no intent to avoid payment.

If you can put them off pursuing a RoRA prosecution then any prosecution would probably be brought under Byelaw 18 of the Railway Byelaws. This does not require proving intent, so it is an easier charge to stick, but the punishment is accordingly less severe in that there is no associated criminal record, so it would be considered immediately spent (there would still be a fine, discharge, community order etc.).

 

[Dccoombes]

Your previous isn't going to help you either, especially as there's rarely no opportunity to purchase a ticket from Greenwich / Gravesend, both of which have pretty lengthy ticket office opening hours and ticket machines.

Yeah im aware of that now - i didnt realise the ticket office was on the otherside and you had to walk all the way around. As i was new to the area i just didnt know, not that, thats a defence.

 

[Dccoombes]

At the moment there is not a great deal you can do - you'll just have to wait until they write to you. But when they do write, we can advise further as to what the different approaches are.

Ok - thank you very much for your replies.

Should i be expect something through the post this week?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Ok - thank you very much for your replies.

Should i be expect something through the post this week?

This week? Extremely unlikely given the time needed to get the report to the prosecutions office, to have it get to the front of the queue, to investigate it and so on.

They have up to 6 months after the date of the incident to bring a prosecution. That means that, since TOCs virtually always send out a letter and so on before prosecuting, you're likely to hear back within the next 3-4 months.

 

[Dccoombes]

3-4 months.

Oh wow - i guess i'll check back in, in a few months then! Thanks for all your help, much appreciated.

 

[Dccoombes]

Having 2 previous PFs isnt going to look to good upon you - Greenwich has TVMs from memory and doing the same thing twice just seems rather silly - as does using your Oyster.

If i was looking at your history when looking into this case i would certainly be asking you if you have done this often and possibly try and pull your Oyster history from TfL to see this.

You are best off waiting to see what they say to you when they write to you with what course of action they will take and then come back to us with that letter.

Start saving.

There are ticket machines, but only on one side, when you get off the DLR as i was, there are no machines on the side that i was on. The ticket off you have to take the road round and then through, i wasn't aware this was the case. I dont have a registered oyster card and i rarely use one as i dont usually take the tube anymore.

Worst case scenario - how much are we talking, plus a criminal conviction?

If there is a 3-4 month gap in them sending me a letter, will these two PF's that i got back in September still be on their system?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

There are ticket machines, but only on one side, when you get off the DLR as i was, there are no machines on the side that i was on. The ticket off you have to take the road round and then through, i wasn't aware this was the case. I dont have a registered oyster card and i rarely use one as i dont usually take the tube anymore.

Worst case scenario - how much are we talking, plus a criminal conviction?

If there is a 3-4 month gap in them sending me a letter, will these two PF's that i got back in September still be on their system?

It is not guaranteed to be 3-4 months, but it could be as long as that, or potentially even as long as 5 months.

Penalty Fares usually stay on operators' systems for a number of years so it's unlikely that they would be gone by the time your case is processed. You can only hope your Penalty Fare "record" is not looked at!

Legally speaking, a fine under either offence (RoRA or Byelaws) cannot be more than £1000. That is the legislated maximum. In practice, Sentencing Guidelines by the Sentencing Council suggest that a fine may be 75-150% of your relevant weekly income, depending on how the culpability and harm of the offence is judged. You'd also usually be ordered to pay the prosecution's costs (in the region of £75-150 in most straightforward cases), plus any fare remaining unpaid, and the victim surcharge.

 

[RPI]

Oh wow - i guess i'll check back in, in a few months then! Thanks for all your help, much appreciated.

I doubt it will be this long, Transport Focus have been very vocal to various TOC'S about keeping the time down in contacting passengers reported for travel irregularities to avoid unnecessary stress to passengers whilst waiting

 

[Haywain]

Legally speaking, a fine under either offence (RoRA or Byelaws) cannot be more than £1000. That is the legislated maximum. In practice, Sentencing Guidelines by the Sentencing Council suggest that a fine may be 75-150% of your relevant weekly income, depending on how the culpability and harm of the offence is judged. You'd also usually be ordered to pay the prosecution's costs (in the region of £75-150 in most straightforward cases), plus any fare remaining unpaid, and the victim surcharge.

The fine would be reduced for a guilty plea.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Would not tapping out (and being charged a maximum fare) constitute having paid? I thought that was the whole point of the maximum fare. If the Revenue Protection had got hold of the passenger before they'd had a chance to tap out, that's fair enough.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Would not tapping out (and being charged a maximum fare) constitute having paid? I thought that was the whole point of the maximum fare. If the Revenue Protection had got hold of the passenger before they'd had a chance to tap out, that's fair enough.

I'm in two minds about this one. On the one hand, if a fare is paid - even if it is a kind of a penalty level of fare like a max fare is - then I would indeed find it hard to justify saying that there was intent to avoid payment of the correct fare.

However, since the OP had started their journey outside the area where contactless/Oyster can be used, and since they were not paying the correct excess fare to travel via HS1 with a not via HS1 season ticket, I don't think this would be a successful avenue. If OP had started somewhere within the contactless/Oyster area, then it would perhaps be more plausible. But as it is, I don't think that is a viable defence (though it could have been against a RoRA prosecution, had the OP not been honest about their origin!).

 

[Surreytraveller]

I'm in two minds about this one. On the one hand, if a fare is paid - even if it is a kind of a penalty level of fare like a max fare is - then I would indeed find it hard to justify saying that there was intent to avoid payment of the correct fare.

However, since the OP had started their journey outside the area where contactless/Oyster can be used, and since they were not paying the correct excess fare to travel via HS1 with a not via HS1 season ticket, I don't think this would be a successful avenue. If OP had started somewhere within the contactless/Oyster area, then it would perhaps be more plausible. But as it is, I don't think that is a viable defence (though it could have been against a RoRA prosecution, had the OP not been honest about their origin!).

I think you're right. There was that case a couple of years ago of that bloke travelling into Marylebone and just tapping out - as that was cheaper than paying the correct fare. But I think travelling wholly within the zonal system, then trapping out would constitute having paid - but is the fare from Gatwick via the Express more expensive than the maximum fare?

 

[6Gman]

So this morning i was running later for work and missed my usual train - i have a monthly travel card which allows me from Gravesend into London Terminals. As i've just started a new job i didnt want to be late so decided to use the highspeed service into St Pancras and see if my ticket would get me through.

As i was already through the barrier i did not return through to purchase an upgrade and ran to the other platform to get on this service. Upon arriving at St Pancras my ticket didnt work through the barriers and i decided just to tap through as i was already running late. This is when i was stopped by two plain clothed ticket inspectors who proceeded to take my details and place me under caution.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

You may want to give some thought to the question the operator might well ask. Why did you not approach the gateline staff at St Pancras to ask "is this ticket valid by this route or do I need to pay an excess?" This would at least show some evidence of not having an intent to avoid payment.

 

[furlong]

The handling of cases like these depends on various small details - what was observed (or obtained from CCTV) and can be proved, what was said at the time etc.
E.g. presenting a known-invalid ticket to the barrier might be said to demonstrate a momentary intent to avoid payment and complete a RORA 5.3(a) offence (and then subsequent tapping wouldn't be relevant).

 

[MikeWh]

but is the fare from Gatwick via the Express more expensive than the maximum fare?

At Victoria on the Gatex platforms you'll be charged a Gatex single fare anyway. Likewise if you touch in there and travel onwards from Gatwick to an open station.

 

[island]

Why didn’t you buy an upgrade from the on-board supervisor on the high speed train?

 

[najaB]

I'm in two minds about this one. On the one hand, if a fare is paid - even if it is a kind of a penalty level of fare like a max fare is - then I would indeed find it hard to justify saying that there was intent to avoid payment of the correct fare.

Not sure what there is to be in two minds about - presenting an Oyster card in an attempt to pass the barriers, having started your journey outside the zones is open-and-shut fare evasion.

Why didn’t you buy an upgrade from the on-board supervisor on the high speed train?

This is a very pertinent question.

 

[6Gman]

Not sure what there is to be in two minds about - presenting an Oyster card in an attempt to pass the barriers, having started your journey outside the zones is open-and-shut fare evasion.

Especially when there were - presumably - gateline staff the OP could have approached ...

 

[Mojo]

Not sure what there is to be in two minds about - presenting an Oyster card in an attempt to pass the barriers, having started your journey outside the zones is open-and-shut fare evasion.

They said that they were in a rush. Not that this makes it right, but the Maximum fare they would have paid with Oyster/CPC is more than the cost of an upgrade would have been (of course, Southeastern won't benefit from this though). Even if the OP hadn't been stopped, they would still have been in a worse situation financially.

This is a very pertinent question.

It is not uncommon, especially on a journey like that, that they will not have been inspected onboard.

 

[najaB]

Southeastern won't benefit from this though

Which is the problem - the upgrade is due to Southeastern so the correct fare hasn't been paid, even though the passenger will have spent more money overall.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Which is the problem - the upgrade is due to Southeastern so the correct fare hasn't been paid, even though the passenger will have spent more money overall.

If we are going to be that pedantic, surely the entire maximum fare will be given to Southeastern if you tap out at the STP HS1 gateline without previously having tapped in. After all, you have to have used one of their services to get there!

 

[najaB]

If we are going to be that pedantic, surely the entire maximum fare will be given to Southeastern if you tap out at the STP HS1 gateline without previously having tapped in. After all, you have to have used one of their services to get there!

I'm not sure that's how it works, but don't know enough about how revenue is distributed from TfL to the respective TOCs.