Not via London

[johnnycache]

Lets get the disclosures out of the way first:

I work for Southern
I'm involved in fare setting

What i would like members' opinions on is the following:

Take the following journey - Headcorn to Redhill

There is only one fares flow: route 00700 not via London

Here's the link to brfares.com:

http://www.brfares.com/#fares?orig=HCN&dest=RDH&rlc=&expert=on

So my question is what are the permitted routes for this fare?

And where can i find them ?

To save you the trouble here are the three possible routeing points for Headcorn

Ashford
Maidstone Group
Tonbridge

Redhill is a member of Redhill routeing group

The maps are

Ashford Redhill Group LONDON CS LK
Maidstone Group Redhill Group LONDON LK
Tonbridge Redhill Group LK

LK gives routes to London and to Redhill via Tonbridge but has a gap between Croydon and Redhill so does not allow journeys via S London or London

CS allows travel via the Redhill Tonbridge line but not towards London via Sevenoaks

Fares

Current Anytime day single fares are:

Ashford Redhill route any permitted (cross London) £30.90
Ashford Redhill route not via London £20.90
Maidstone Redhill route any permitted (cross London) £22.90
Maidstone Redhill route not via London £16.00
Headcorn Redhill route not via London £16.10
Tonbridge Redhill route any permitted £9.00

Assuming that the above relativities applied in NFM64 both Tonbridge and Maidstone would be appropriate routeing points for Headcorn

So my question is does that mean that a trip from Headcorn to Redhill can be made via (say) Tonbridge, Orpington, Bromley South, Beckenham Junction, Crystal Palace, Norwood Junction, East Croydon ?

Thank you

 

[hairyhandedfool]

'London' in the Routeing Guide means a route to London and then a route from London. If the routeing of the ticket is 'Not via London' then those routes produced by 'London' will not be valid. The only option for mapped routes in this case, therefore, is LK, which is via Tonbridge.

 

[maniacmartin]

'London' in the Routeing Guide means a route to London and then a route from London. If the routeing of the ticket is 'Not via London' then those routes produced by 'London' will not be valid.

Not Via London is the most misunderstood and confusing term I've ever come across. It seems everyone has their own different definition (London map, London Stations group, London Terminals etc); indeed this was debated in another thread this weekend. Is there any official ATOC definition for Via/Not Via London anywhere?

 

[island]

'London' in the Routeing Guide means a route to London and then a route from London. If the routeing of the ticket is 'Not via London' then those routes produced by 'London' will not be valid. The only option for mapped routes in this case, therefore, is LK, which is via Tonbridge.

I disagree. I read Not Via London as not via London Terminals, or possibly not via any member of the London routeing group. I think it is valid to use a LONDON map combination as long as you don't use a London terminal.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The Routeing Guide states that 'London' means finding a route to London and then a route from London and using those together for the journey. If the route of the ticket forbids journeys via London, how do you propose using a route that goes via London?

If the routeing code is "LONDON", for all journeys via London you will need to
cross reference routeing codes applicable "to London" with the code for the
"from London" leg of the journey.

If the routeing code is "LONDON", journeys include the cost of cross-London
transfer either by London Underground or Thameslink services. In all cases
the transfer points should be along the correct line of route given by the
‘permitted route’ map combinations.

If there is a route “LONDON” as one of the permitted routes in the Routeing Guide,
the range of permitted routes via London is discovered by the following method:
1. Look up the permitted routes from the origin routeing point to London.
2. Look up the permitted routes from London to the destination routeing point.
3. Work out the range of permitted routes for the whole journey by combining any
route found in (1) with any route found in (2). All possible combinations are
permitted routes for the journey except those with a repeated map.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not Via London is the most misunderstood and confusing term I've ever come across. It seems everyone has their own different definition (London map, London Stations group, London Terminals etc); indeed this was debated in another thread this weekend. Is there any official ATOC definition for Via/Not Via London anywhere?

Have you tried looking on NRES for 'via London' and, by logical process, tried to work out what 'not via London' is?

 

[island]

You go via the London map but not via a London terminal.

An example would be Westerfield to Harlow Mill. Westerfield's routeing points are Ipswich and Norwich, and Harlow Mill's are Stansted Group and Tottenham Hale Group.

An example would be Norwich to Tottenham Hale. Both are routeing points, so no fares check needed. Map choice is LONDON or EA+OV. Norwich to London Group is CN+WA or EA. London Group to Tottenham Hale Group is WA. You're not allowed to use the same map twice (so CN+WA+WA wouldn't work), but you are entitled to use EA+WA on a NOT VIA LONDON ticket as long as you avoid London Terminals. Such a route could include Norwich to Stratford via Colchester on EA, then Stratford to Tottenham Hale on WA.

NRES says NOT VIA LONDON means "Travel must NOT involve London", which is not very illuminating.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The Routeing Guide states that 'London' means finding a route to London and then a route from London and using those together for the journey. If the route of the ticket forbids journeys via London, how do you propose using a route that goes via London?

By changing short of London, but still using all the relevant maps.

 

[yorkie]

Putting "LONDON" in the yellow pages is just a way of avoiding duplication, and also the routeing group "LONDON GROUP" is not the same as London Terminals. London Group is used for routeing purposes, in the same way that Birmingham Group is.

A better analogy is Perry Barr to Gravelly Hill. The routeing is "NOT VIA BIRMINGHAM". You can go via "BIRMINGHAM GROUP" for Routeing Purposes, indeed you have to, as you change at Aston, which is a member of Birmingham Group but not a member of Birmingham Stns.

 

[IrishDave]

Work out the range of permitted routes for the whole journey by combining any
route found in (1) with any route found in (2). All possible combinations are
permitted routes for the journey except those with a repeated map.

My reading of this is that the indication "LONDON" in the yellow table of the Routeing Guide only indicates that you should use the maps for X-London and London-Y in combination, not that such a route must go via London.

For example, Newcastle-Southend has ticket flows Not Via London and +Any Permitted, but the list of permitted routes in the routeing guide consists only of LONDON. By combining the maps ER for Newcastle-London and EA for London-Southend, one sees that Newcastle-ECML-Peterborough-Ely-Stowmarket-Shenfield-Southend Victoria is a permitted route which unequivocally avoids London. (There are many other routes avoiding London, some via Tottenham-Barking which presumably involve a walk at Tottenham...)

If it were the case that the "LONDON" in the Routeing Guide forced Newcastle-Southend to go via London, then we either have a useless Not Via London ticket, or else the railways don't obey standard rules of logic (see the answer to question 5 here...).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You go via the London map but not via a London terminal.

An example would be Westerfield to Harlow Mill. Westerfield's routeing points are Ipswich and Norwich, and Harlow Mill's are Stansted Group and Tottenham Hale Group.

An example would be Norwich to Tottenham Hale. Both are routeing points, so no fares check needed. Map choice is LONDON or EA+OV. Norwich to London Group is CN+WA or EA. London Group to Tottenham Hale Group is WA. You're not allowed to use the same map twice (so CN+WA+WA wouldn't work), but you are entitled to use EA+WA on a NOT VIA LONDON ticket as long as you avoid London Terminals. Such a route could include Norwich to Stratford via Colchester on EA, then Stratford to Tottenham Hale on WA.

NRES says NOT VIA LONDON means "Travel must NOT involve London", which is not very illuminating.

Okay, you need to start again here. The Routeing Guide says that when using 'London' you find a mapped route to London and a mapped route from London to use as the permitted route. So you have to go to London to come out again. How can you go to London without going to London?

Let's look at your example of going to Stratford and out again (using the 'not via London' fare).

In order to go only as far as Stratford, you would have to conclude that Stratford is London because you have to pick a route to London and then from London, but your ticket does not allow you to go to London and as Stratford is London you can't go there, so it is not a valid route on a 'Not via London' ticket.

If you think that Stratford is not London then you have not created a permitted route because you have not gone to London, not that you would be allowed to on a 'Not via London ticket anyway, so it is not a valid route.

By changing short of London, but still using all the relevant maps.

It is the route that is important, not where you change trains, the route for 'London' would have to include London as that is the instructions we are given, however a 'not via London' fare would not be valid via London, making a route via London not valid.

 

[34D]

NRES says NOT VIA LONDON means "Travel must NOT involve London", which is not very illuminating.

Which I don't believe is correct. It may be the case that not via london is more expensive than any permitted (unlikely, but we'll see) or alternatively that an easement may permit it.

For example, Heathrow rail to Langley has a £12 first class anytime day return for route not London, but easement 700ezf States:

"Customers travelling from Heathrow Terminals 1-3, Heathrow Terminal 4 or Heathrow Terminal 5 to West Drayton, Iver or Langley may double back 700276 between Southall and London Paddington. This easement applies in both directions."

I suggest therefore that this £12 ticket is valid on Heathrow Express into Paddington - if anyone is contemplating this, please do your own research first.

 

[yorkie]

Hairyhandedfool: What about Croydon Stns to Barking? There is a route +Not via London fare, but the only mapped routes are via London Group. What route do you suggest passengers take, given your logic?

Clearly the intended route is to use the London maps but avoid London Terminals, e.g. by changing at Canada Water & West Ham (using the Jubilee Line) or by changing at Shadwell & Limehouse (using the DLR). Do you really disagree with that?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That is a question better suited to those who set the rules, I can only follow them.

 

[yorkie]

Well, go on, follow the rules for Croydon Stns for Barking, I will be very interested to see which way you think a passenger should go.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I wouldn't offer the fare if I didn't think they could use it. If they had a ticket I would offer an excess to a valid ticket if they wanted to go via London.

 

[yorkie]

Are you suggesting you'd refuse to issue that fare?

 

[All Line Rover]

This...

For example, Newcastle-Southend has ticket flows Not Via London and +Any Permitted, but the list of permitted routes in the routeing guide consists only of LONDON. By combining the maps ER for Newcastle-London and EA for London-Southend, one sees that Newcastle-ECML-Peterborough-Ely-Stowmarket-Shenfield-Southend Victoria is a permitted route which unequivocally avoids London. (There are many other routes avoiding London, some via Tottenham-Barking which presumably involve a walk at Tottenham...)

If it were the case that the "LONDON" in the Routeing Guide forced Newcastle-Southend to go via London, then we either have a useless Not Via London ticket, or else the railways don't obey standard rules of logic (see the answer to question 5 here...).

...and this...

Hairyhandedfool: What about Croydon Stns to Barking? There is a route +Not via London fare, but the only mapped routes are via London Group. What route do you suggest passengers take, given your logic?

Clearly the intended route is to use the London maps but avoid London Terminals, e.g. by changing at Canada Water & West Ham (using the Jubilee Line) or by changing at Shadwell & Limehouse (using the DLR). Do you really disagree with that?P

...are absolutely excellent examples. They completely contradict what ATOC told me in writing but can't be argued with! It may well be the case that different ATOC employees have different opinions on this matter. I don't think there is a definitive answer to the question. I hope that if it ever got to court the judge would side with the passenger (on the basis of 'if it doesn't say you can't do it, you can'), and ATOC would be forced to amend the Routeing Guide to make clear their intentions.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Looking into it a bit, I think it might be possible that the shortest route might be Barking-West Ham-Canary Wharf-Lewisham-New Cross-Surrey Quays-Norwood Junction-Croydon (where West Ham-Lewisham is by LUL/DLR and therefore has no mileage), or possibly even Barking-West Ham-Canary Wharf-Lewisham-Shortlands-Crystal Palace-East Croydon (where West Ham-Lewisham is by LUL/DLR and therefore has no mileage), though I don't have an NRT to hand to check it, but as I say, a question for those who set the rules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you suggesting you'd refuse to issue that fare?

I'm saying I would offer the cheapest fare valid for the journey being made.

 

[yorkie]

The shortest route should not involve a walk or other mode of transport, though London Terminals does appear to be an exception to that rule (understandably) where the mileage is considered zero between termini. But you can't use that argument with avoiding London. You are just looking for excuses to claim the ticket is valid by other methods.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm not looking for excuses, I have no need to.

I have not tried to claim that a ticket is "valid by other methods", whatever that actually means.

I have not said a walk should be included in the shortest route in this thread (though you may want to look up the thread involving travel from Bradford Forster Square to New Pudsey). I have made no mention of walking in this thread (until this post).

I would appreciate it if you could read what I have written and respond to that instead of making things up as you see fit.

Perhaps you could explain how you could go via London without going via London?

 

[yorkie]

What about Croydon Stns - Hither Green, route: Not via London. The shortest route is via London Bridge. Therefore, you cannot use the shortest route excuse. We have to consider mapped routes. Therefore we can use the London maps but avoiding London Terminals which means walking between New Cross Gate and New Cross (which is a recognised interchange but does not form the shortest route). Do you disagree with that?

 

[johnnycache]

Going back to the original Headcorn to Redhill question I'm getting two schools of thought

1) You can't use London routes on a not via London routed ticket even if you avoid stations in the London routeing group
2) You can

If you try this route on NRE its very hard to get an answer because you have only one "via" or "not via" option - so for instance if I enter via Crystal Palace I get given a route like Headcorn - London Bridge - West Norwood - Norwood Junction - Redhill which doesn't help as its via London and therefore at a higher fare anyway

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Perhaps, instead of bringing up new situations, you could answer the question asked of you?

 

[maniacmartin]

Perhaps you could explain how you could go via London without going via London?

I think the argument that yorkie is making is that one can go via the London Map without going via London Terminals

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think the argument that yorkie is making is that one can go via the London Map without going via London Terminals

I'm sure Yorkie is capable of speaking for himself.

 

[yorkie]

Going back to the original Headcorn to Redhill question I'm getting two schools of thought

1) You can't use London routes on a not via London routed ticket even if you avoid stations in the London routeing group
2) You can

Yes, most of us believe option 2 applies, apart from one person.

It's the only logical interpretation, especially when you look at tickets such as Croydon - Barking, Croydon - Hither Green, and tickets in the Birmingham area where the only routeing option is by changing at Aston (ie, you have to go via Birmingham Group) but the ticket is routed not via Birmingham (which means not via Birmingham Stns).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the argument that yorkie is making is that one can go via the London Map without going via London Terminals

Absolutely.

 

[bicbasher]

In the past (pre East London line) I've had tickets from Forest Hill to St. Leonards Warrior Square and Brighton with the "NOT LONDON" restriction. You can only use trains to/from London Bridge to connect from East Croydon which again I believe as an average pax to mean don't travel via London terminals.

I've also travelled to Warrior Square via London Bridge with the maltese cross instead.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....It's the only logical interpretation....

So explain how you can go via London without going via London. If it is logical, it will be a piece of cake, so go ahead, I'm all ears.

 

[maniacmartin]

If you try this route on NRE its very hard to get an answer because you have only one "via" or "not via" option

You can add multiple "via" points but the javascript that does this is a bit buggy, so it's never worked for me when editing an existing journey - I've always had to start right at the beginning. On the homepage, click "More options, railcards & passengers". Then to the right of "Route Travel via", click "Add another".

 

[yorkie]

So explain how you can go via London without going via London. If it is logical, it will be a piece of cake, so go ahead, I'm all ears.

You can use the via London maps, but not go via London Terminals by using LU/DLR or walking or interchanging at a station short of London Terminals (as appropriate to the journey).

You can go via Birmingham Group, but not via Birmingham Stns, by changing trains at Aston.

Groups for routeing purposes are not the same as Station Groups.

The reason that "London" is used in the yellow pages is obviously to avoid duplication, and to avoid huge lists of maps! The routeing restriction that says you cannot go via London Terminals in no way reduces your right to use the mapped routes, and if you want to disagree with us, then I fail to understand your logic.