Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter - looking for help

[PDMonte]

Hi all. I'm needing some help on dealing with a Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter, I hope I could get some advice from you.

I was penalized because I travelled from Clapham Junction to Gatwick thinking I could pay with my Oyster card. I swiped my Oyster at Clapham Junction and when I swiped it at Gatwick to leave the station the machine asked me to seek for assistance, which then resulted in a penalty. I was told that I could only travel within the London area with my Oyster. I must admit that at Clapham Junction I wasn't sure as to whether I would be able to pay for that journey with my Oyster, but it was 5 am and there was no one at the station to give me advice. On the other hand, I had never bought a ticket to Gatwick and wasn't confident about buying the correct ticket on the machine so I decided to use my Oyster.

When I was given a penalty fare my only means of paying the fare were a visa electron and my oyster card, non of which was useful. I was then told that I should wait for the company to send me a letter telling me the next steps of my case. I don't remember receiving any receipt or document from the officer.

I have now received a Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter, which surprises me since I was expecting a letter stating the amount of money I had to pay. My intention is to pay for the penalty fare and avoid by all means going to court.

Could you give me any advice? I will really appreciate it. And thank you in advance for reading my post.

 

[michael769]

Given the circumstances my best advice would be to reply to the letter providing a full explanation of the circumstances including the confusion that you found yourself in. I would also advise that you inform the train company that you would be willing to make a payment to them to cover the unpaid fare and also to cover their costs in dealing with that matter.

It should then hopefully be possible to negotiate with them to reach a settlement that avoids prosecution. Does the letter give any indication as to what amount of costs they would be seeking, typically if they do mention costs an offer of that amount plus the unpaid fare will be accepted.

I would suggest before you draft your letter you await some guidance from the boards fares and ticketing experts about the situation you found yourself in, they will be able to confirm if the allegation against you has merit (if it does not have merit we may be able to provide help further in your response to the train company)

 

[Ferret]

Given the circumstances my best advice would be to reply to the letter providing a full explanation of the circumstances including the confusion that you found yourself in. I would also advise that you inform the train company that you would be willing to make a payment to them to cover the unpaid fare and also to cover their costs in dealing with that matter

It should then hopefully be possible to negotiate with them to reach a settlement that avoids prosecution. Does the letter give any indication as to what amount of costs they would be seeking, typically if they do mention costs an offer of that amount plus the unpaid fare will be accepted.

I would suggest before you draft your letter you await some guidance from the boards fares and ticketing experts about the situation you found yourself in, they will be able to confirm if the allegation against you has merit (if it does not have merit we may be able to provide help further in your response to the train company)

I was at Cesspit, sorry Gatwick Airport earlier this week returning from abroad, and I didn't see any Oyster readers there so I'm assuming Oyster isn't valid there. What concerns me is that not having a means to pay the fare due could be seen as intent to avoid the fare, with all the well-covered consequences!

Nevertheless, given the OP's apparent confusion, I agree with the strategy that Michael769 suggests.

 

[MikeWh]

I was at Cesspit, sorry Gatwick Airport earlier this week returning from abroad, and I didn't see any Oyster readers there so I'm assuming Oyster isn't valid there. What concerns me is that not having a means to pay the fare due could be seen as intent to avoid the fare, with all the well-covered consequences!

Nevertheless, given the OP's apparent confusion, I agree with the strategy that Michael769 suggests.

At a guess the readers were for Southern's "The Key".

 

[PDMonte]

Thank you all!

Michael769, about whether they indicate the costs they seek, the letter does not say anything about it. It only says 'this letter is to inform you of our intention to take this case to the Magistrates Court and the enclosed form provides you with the opportunity to tell us what happened from your poin of view'.

And, about using Oyster at Gatwick, I checked the First Capital Connect website, and Oyster is not valid there. So, I really didn't have a valid ticket. I was hoping that the company would take into consideration the fact that there was no staff at Clapham station to give me information about that. And that there was no information pasted on the walls or anything similar.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Thank you all!

Michael769, about whether they indicate the costs they seek, the letter does not say anything about it. It only says 'this letter is to inform you of our intention to take this case to the Magistrates Court and the enclosed form provides you with the opportunity to tell us what happened from your poin of view'.

And, about using Oyster at Gatwick, I checked the First Capital Connect website, and Oyster is not valid there. So, I really didn't have a valid ticket. I was hoping that the company would take into consideration the fact that there was no staff at Clapham station to give me information about that. And that there was no information pasted on the walls or anything similar.

There are large London area Zone maps on the walls at each entrance at Clapham Junction station. There are also staff on the platform(s) where the Gatwick trains depart from, despite being Platform staff most of them could have easily told you that Oyster is not valid to Gatwick Airport.

 

[Ferret]

There are large London area Zone maps on the walls at each entrance at Clapham Junction station. There are also staff on the platform(s) where the Gatwick trains depart from, despite being Platform staff most of them could have easily told you that Oyster is not valid to Gatwick Airport.

One of my observations of the general public at large is that they can be particularly dozy at unsociable times of the day, especially if they aren't used to being up early. I'm reluctant to hang this OP based on what seems to be an error rather than genuine intent to take the Mickey!

 

[PDMonte]

There are large London area Zone maps on the walls at each entrance at Clapham Junction station. There are also staff on the platform(s) where the Gatwick trains depart from, despite being Platform staff most of them could have easily told you that Oyster is not valid to Gatwick Airport.

Thank you for your comment Urban Gateline, that was useful. My point is that those maps don't specify in which areas the customers can travel using their Oyster Cards. At 5 am in Clapham Junction the only way to access that information was through the internet. There were no platform staff in the hall before the oyster card readers' gate. Also, I'm assuming that they're not responsible for providing that information.

I think that the fact that I swiped my Oyster Card when accessing Clapham Junction was enough proof that I was not trying to travel without paying, and that the fact that I was travelling with an invalid ticket was because of lack of information and support. I think that it would have been fair to have been given the possibility of paying for the ticket at Gatwick using my debit card.

 

[island]

The railway does not accept Visa Electron (as a general rule). Failure to pay by an acceptable method the price of your single journey as a minimum payment towards a penalty fare can often result in prosecution for intent to avoid payment.

I find it difficult to believe that there was absolutely no staff member on the station whom the OP could have asked about the validity of his Oyster card.

 

[Ferret]

The railway does not accept Visa Electron (as a general rule).

Am I right in thinking that the TVMs at Clapham would accept Electron? I seem to recall the ones at Cheltenham used to.

 

[tony6499]

Southern TVM's accept Electron as do the booking offices, wonder why you weren't taken over to the ticket office to pay but saying that there is/was a problem with people using Oyster/Freedom passes/1-6 Travelcards so maybe the reason you were reported.

 

[Realfish]

The railway does not accept Visa Electron (as a general rule). Failure to pay by an acceptable method the price of your single journey as a minimum payment towards a penalty fare can often result in prosecution for intent to avoid payment.

I find it difficult to believe that there was absolutely no staff member on the station whom the OP could have asked about the validity of his Oyster card.

...and from who he could purchase a ticket. Of course it would have been better all round if he had planned his journey. I think that I have read here of a few that have been similarly caught out at places like Gatwick and Epsom.

That said, if as implied he could have used a TVM, being devil's advocate, this would mean that he would only have been able to purchase a Clapham JCT to Gatwick ticket (presumably £10.40). This would have cost the OP over £3 more than if he had used his Oyster card to the limit of travel (Coulsdon South - £2.40) and then purchased an onward ticket to Gatwick (£4.90).

So if we take the OP at his word, was it not the case that he didn't have the opportunity to buy the cheapest ticket for his journey?

NB: He will of course he will have been charged the Oyster maximum fare.

 

[island]

...and from who he could purchase a ticket. Of course it would have been better all round if he had planned his journey. I think that I have read here of a few that have been similarly caught out at places like Gatwick and Epsom.

That said, if as implied he could have used a TVM, being devil's advocate, this would mean that he would only have been able to purchase a Clapham JCT to Gatwick ticket (presumably £10.40). This would have cost the OP over £3 more than if he had used his Oyster card to the limit of travel (Coulsdon South - £2.40) and then purchased an onward ticket to Gatwick (£4.90).

Sorry, but your post is one big red herring. If he had wanted to do this combination, he would have been able to get off at Coulsdon South and do so. A ticket office staff member wouldn't have been obliged to inform him of this option.

Had he asked a staff member - any staff member - whether he could use his Oyster card to Gatwick, he would have received a negative response. He made an assumption which turned out wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Southern TVM's accept Electron as do the booking offices

Southern does not operate Clapham Junction though I thought...

 

[kieron]

Southern does not operate Clapham Junction though I thought...

PDMonte wasn't at Clapham Junction when he tried to use his Visa Electron card.

Southern (who operate Gatwick station) accept Visa Electron for buying tickets, but not for paying penalty fares. That's probably why the inspector didn't ask him to pay there and then.

 

[PDMonte]

Thank you so much for your comments.

Another thing that surprised me was that the train staff that wrote down the penalty and took my personal information told me that, since I could not pay the penalty because I did not have cash or a credit card (and Visa Electron is not accepted) I would have to wait for the train company to write me a letter telling me what was the next step in my case. He even added that the company might not do anything about my case. I thought I would be given another chance to pay the penalty fare, but the letter they sent is basically saying that they want to go to court, without any intermediate stages.

Now that I'm getting my head around this issue and looking for information, I've read on the web that there is a 21 day period to pay for the fare, which I didn't know about. But I don't know if this applied in my case, since the train staff told me that I should wait for the company's letter to move forward.

I don't remember having been given any receipt/document/copy by the train staff who did the penalty papers at Gatwick. Should I have been given something?

 

[island]

You have not been issued a penalty fare. Penalty fares require (with some exceptions that aren't relevant here) the payment of at least the single fare for the journey just travelled on the spot, by an approved method of payment. You weren't in a position to make such aayment; therefore, you were reported for prosecution. There is no 21 day period in these circumstances, and while you may still be able to pay a sum of money to avoid the matter getting any worse, it will be unlikely to be far off three figures, and will be a substantial multiple of the price of the ticket you could have bought at your starting station.

 

[michael769]

None of wht ypu say there helps you as it is not applicable to your case now that the ToC has decided to consider prosecution.

The only option open to you at this stage is to respond to the letter with your version of events and to try to negociate a out of court settlement. The ting to realise is that the ToC has not yet made a final decision about prosecution, that will depend on your response to their letter.

Given the circumstances I see no reason to think the ToC would be unwilling to accept a settlement, though there are no guarantees.

Just write back to them with a description of the the events from your perspective as you told it to us, and tell them that you woud be willing to make a payment to cover the fare and any other expenses they have incurred. That will hopefully promt them to respond with an offer, once you know what it is you can make an informed decision if you wish to pay it, or risk defending it in court.

 

[Airlink]

Thank you so much for your comments.

Another thing that surprised me was that the train staff that wrote down the penalty and took my personal information told me that, since I could not pay the penalty because I did not have cash or a credit card (and Visa Electron is not accepted) I would have to wait for the train company to write me a letter telling me what was the next step in my case. He even added that the company might not do anything about my case. I thought I would be given another chance to pay the penalty fare, but the letter they sent is basically saying that they want to go to court, without any intermediate stages.

Now that I'm getting my head around this issue and looking for information, I've read on the web that there is a 21 day period to pay for the fare, which I didn't know about. But I don't know if this applied in my case, since the train staff told me that I should wait for the company's letter to move forward.

I don't remember having been given any receipt/document/copy by the train staff who did the penalty papers at Gatwick. Should I have been given something?

I would go to court and argue my case.

It seems you made a genuine error. You could have purchased a rail ticket at Clapham Junction with your Electron card via a TVM (or the ticket office if it was open, which I know it wouldn't have been at 5am). So for Southern staff to say you didn't have means of payment is utter crap. Admittedly they are not accepted by Avantix machine, but you did have means when boarding.

Is Electron an accepted method of payment on Southern - Yes!

Get a print out for your oyster to show validating. If PAYG will show a charge of about £7.20 for tapping in, who does that with the intention of avoiding fares, before anyone starts, yes I know the fare is probably higher to Gatwick.

Yet another case of RP staff not using common sense/discretion. Why not take customer to TVM and pay for a ticket, not strictly correct but nothing avoided?

What ever happened to customer service?

 

[Ferret]

I would go to court and argue my case.

I cannot endorse this advice.

You could have purchased a rail ticket at Clapham Junction with your Electron card via a TVM....So for Southern staff to say you didn't have means of payment is utter crap.

This shows a Court that a valid opportunity to pay was ignored.

Admittedly they are not accepted by Avantix machine, but you did have means when boarding.

And the OP did not take that opportunity.

Is Electron an accepted method of payment on Southern - Yes!

At the point of origin, yes.

Get a print out for your oyster to show validating. If PAYG will show a charge of about £7.20 for tapping in, who does that with the intention of avoiding fares, before anyone starts, yes I know the fare is probably higher to Gatwick.

You've just answered the question of what a skilled prosecutor will argue when faced with that very weak line of argument.

Yet another case of RP staff not using common sense/discretion. Why not take customer to TVM and pay for a ticket, not strictly correct but nothing avoided?

Discretion is not a right. How is that RPI supposed to know that the OP was not trying it on? Complaining that a member of staff did his job correctly is a non-starter and makes your argument look weak (which it is).

What ever happened to customer service?

It was demonstrated to those who paid their fare correctly.

While this OP has made a mistake, he should've established before making the journey what method of payment would be acceptable (eg whether Oyster was valid or not). A Court will not look favourably on this case as far as I can see from the evidence presented by the OP. Better to settle the matter before it gets that far.

 

[island]

I cannot endorse Airlink's advice.

 

[Greenback]

I would go to court and argue my case.

This is very poor advice.

You could have purchased a rail ticket at Clapham Junction with your Electron card via a TVM (or the ticket office if it was open, which I know it wouldn't have been at 5am). So for Southern staff to say you didn't have means of payment is utter crap. Admittedly they are not accepted by Avantix machine, but you did have means when boarding.

Maybe the OP could have bought a ticket with the Electron. They did not buy a ticket, and by their own admission they did not even attempt to do so. Therefore, what they could have done is irrelevant.

Get a print out for your oyster to show validating. If PAYG will show a charge of about £7.20 for tapping in, who does that with the intention of avoiding fares, before anyone starts, yes I know the fare is probably higher to Gatwick.

It is therefore, not a useful defence, given that the charge would still be avoiding the fare for the journey actually undertaken.

 

[Stigy]

You have not been issued a penalty fare. Penalty fares require (with some exceptions that aren't relevant here) the payment of at least the single fare for the journey just travelled on the spot, by an approved method of payment. You weren't in a position to make such aayment; therefore, you were reported for prosecution. There is no 21 day period in these circumstances, and while you may still be able to pay a sum of money to avoid the matter getting any worse, it will be unlikely to be far off three figures, and will be a substantial multiple of the price of the ticket you could have bought at your starting station.

He was in a position to pay with a valid means as Southern do apparently accept Electron as a rule. Seems a bit off that they'd cancel a PFN because of this, as he could have the single fare for his journey, could he not? Yes he could have been reported initially anyway, but why cancel the PF?

If this does go to Court, I think it'll more than likely be for a Byelaw offence, as intent to avoid payment isn't needed in this case. I doubt very much that Southern would be able to prove any intent, unless the OP coughed to it during questioning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would go to court and argue my case.

It seems you made a genuine error.

Honest mistake or not, he still breached a Byelaw, which is strict liability, meaning very little defence....honest mistake isn't a defence.

 

[island]

He was in a position to pay with a valid means as Southern do apparently accept Electron as a rule.

Nope. Southern's PF leaflet specifically says they don't take Electron.

 

[Stigy]

Southern TVM's accept Electron as do the booking offices, wonder why you weren't taken over to the ticket office to pay but saying that there is/was a problem with people using Oyster/Freedom passes/1-6 Travelcards so maybe the reason you were reported.

Nope. Southern's PF leaflet specifically says they don't take Electron.

So Southern's TVMs and Ticket Offices do, yet for the benefit of PFs, they don't? Is this because of the Avantix? If their TVMs and Ticket Offices do accept Electron, then he had the means to pay, therefore they'd not be able to prove intent to avoid payment unless there were other factors involved.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Thank you for your comment Urban Gateline, that was useful. My point is that those maps don't specify in which areas the customers can travel using their Oyster Cards.

Except they do, the Maps on the wall of the London area show the whole Oyster area, if you looked on it you would see that Coulsdon South is the Boundary on that line for Oyster card users, Gatwick is not on there hence Oyster is not valid as Gatwick is outside the zones.

At 5 am in Clapham Junction the only way to access that information was through the internet. There were no platform staff in the hall before the oyster card readers' gate. Also, I'm assuming that they're not responsible for providing that information.

Again I would agree with what Island stated earlier, ignorance is not a deffence, you could have asked Southern platform staff before boarding the train.

 

[island]

So Southern's TVMs and Ticket Offices do, yet for the benefit of PFs, they don't? Is this because of the Avantix? If their TVMs and Ticket Offices do accept Electron, then he had the means to pay, therefore they'd not be able to prove intent to avoid payment unless there were other factors involved.

Intent may not be straightforward to prove (unless as you say there are other factors, such as the OP incriminating himself at interview), but the crimes of failing to hand over a valid ticket for inspection and joining a train without a ticket at a station where facilities to purchase one were available do not require intent to be proven.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

To avoid being sidetracked and confused here, michael769 is giving you sound advice. You have this opportunity to write to the Company with an explanation (which should include printed evidence of having touched in at Clapham and an example to illustrate your knowledge that Southern can and do accept your Electron card elsewhere).

The content of your letter will be used to help the Company decide how to deal with your unpaid fare.
The question of "crime" and "intent" should not come into the matter.

But as I understand it, you do still owe the Company your fare for travel and should make it abundantly clear that you wish to pay at the soonest opportunity.

 

[Stigy]

Intent may not be straightforward to prove (unless as you say there are other factors, such as the OP incriminating himself at interview), but the crimes of failing to hand over a valid ticket for inspection and joining a train without a ticket at a station where facilities to purchase one were available do not require intent to be proven.

I agree, which is why I mentioned the Byelaws in an earlier post. It seems though, that the RPI took his Electron card as having no means, hence why he decided not to PF. Although nobody has an automatic right to a Penalty Fare if they have no ticket, and may be report straight away, it seems in this case, somewhat underhand in the way the RPI dealt with the matter.

 

[Ferret]

Do Southern do 'nil-paid PFs'?

 

[island]

All TOCs are supposed to do them for vulnerable passengers and those claiming to have forgotten a season ticket. Whether this happens in practice, or applies to the OP, I have no idea.