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Nottingham to Sheffield Routeing issue

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cumbersome

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can anyone advise on a permitted routes query please? a return ticket for sheffield - nottingham - sheffield used to (I was told?) allow a change at derby on the return leg (ie last train from nott 2320, change at derby, arrives sheffield around 1am). Is this no longer the case, and if so when did it change please?
If so, is there any other valid way of getting back from nottingham to sheffield with a return ticket by train after 9.50pm? thanks

Surely humans could come up with a better/simpler system? If this is just to protect from fare dodgers, don't exit barrier machines remove the need for the complexity?
 
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Romilly

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I don't know what used to be the case, but currently the only mapped routes for a Sheffield-Nottingham ticket are those shown on map NB in the routeing guide, which quite clearly does not allow travel via Derby.

However, the mapped routes for a Sheffield-Derby ticket are those shown on map DY, and they consist of Sheffield to Derby not via Nottingham, and Sheffield to Derby via Nottingham. So with a Sheffield to Derby ticket, you could travel Sheffield-Nottingham-Sheffield or Sheffield-Nottingham-Derby-Sheffield (or Sheffield-Derby-Nottingham-Sheffield or Sheffield-Nottingham-Derby-Nottingham-Sheffield) but not Sheffield-Derby-Nottingham-Derby-Sheffield.

This is fine because there are no break-of-journey restrictions on the Sheffield-Derby anytime return, anytime day return, offpeak return or offpeak day return.

I would add that some online journey planners think that the late night journey home via Derby is fine on a Sheffield-Nottingham ticket (see e.g. the C2C website) and would therefore give you the desired itinerary if you bought the ticket from them.
 

yorkie

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This journey opportunity was withdrawn without the consent or knowledge of the train company (and quite possibly without the consent or knowledge of the Department for Transport) on 23 November 2016:

See:

Some more changes were published yesterday. This time, however, a summary was published for it here.

New dataset RJRG0438 published 23 November 2016

...

1 map(s) changed
Map NB - NOTTINGHAM TO BRADFORD VIA SHEFFIELD changed (0 added/ 1
removed links)

This removes the link between Derby and Nottingham groups via Long Eaton and Attenborough. The map still contains an indirect link via Chesterfield.
...

A lot of the trouble this will cause will be for passengers travelling to Beeston and, especially with its lesser service, Attenborough, both of which are members of the Nottingham Group. These passengers will now have fewer journey opportunities and in some cases increased journey times.
I got in touch with EMT about this and they went away and gave me a call back. It was only a voicemail so I haven't had a conversation about their reply. They said that they had no idea that the RG had been changed to remove the route from Nottingham to Sheffield via Derby and they didn't think Cross Country knew either. As far as EMT are concerned, they don't have a problem with anyone going via Derby on their trains, which I take to mean catching the Matlock and changing onto a St Pancras - Sheffield would be fine for any type of ticket.....
... [Department for Transport] has probably not, however, approved the changes as it's supposed to (previous FOI requests by other forum members show a rather hit-and-miss record). I find it very odd that RDG appears to have acted on its own initiative to withdraw a route yet EMT are fine with the withdrawn route being taken by passengers.
For some time RDG/ATOC seem to have been making changes to the Routeing Guide almost on the hoof, sometimes on a daily basis. Many a time, changes which have quite clearly not been subject to proper impact assessment have been revised, or even reversed, within a few days of being introduced. Often the reason given for making a change is "correcting errors", even when the thing being changed has been in place for years meaning that another few weeks to assess the impact properly would make little difference to the timescale but, potentially, a big difference to the outcome.

If memory serves, changes to the RG used to only be made at set intervals and were seemingly subject to proper assessment and scrutiny. DafT and Transport Focus both seem unconcerned about the drift to the current unsatisfactory arrangements.
Did anyone bring them to account by escalating the matter to their MP and relevant bodies?

If not, they will keep on doing this and many more passengers will continue to have their rights removed in years to come.
 

cumbersome

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Thanks both, (and whoever moved my query)

Seems crazy that the only possible and reasonable route back at that time isn't allowed without doubling the cost with singles, when the trains at that time are largely empty.

c2c website isn't at all clearly laid out to me, and I can't really rely on an answer machine message mentioned in a forum sometime in the past, so it's a warm coach or car rather than the long wait in a freezing waiting room at Derby station

Gonna pass on the mp idea, there comes a point in life when you give up banging your head against the brick walls of bureaucracy - I'd have a simple load a smart card with cash system, no discounts cards, travel anytime anywhere, regulated range of pence per mile charged as the crow flies between entry and exit, touch in, touch out, no tickets, no problems system, rather than a 2500 page routeing guide and ridiculous ticketing/pricing/fining complexity. Unlikely to happen in my lifetime, if ever ... computers were supposed to make life simpler.
 

Harpers Tate

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^^ Roueting doesn't enter into it when the service is direct. You can always use a direct train regardless of how roundabout its route is.
 

cumbersome

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richard,

I'm a total novice as regards the complexities of the rail system , so don't really understand what you mean

just to be clear, the only reason derby is mentioned in the query, is because there is no direct train from nottingham to sheffield after about 2145, which is about an hour too early.
 

richardderby

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richard,

I'm a total novice as regards the complexities of the rail system , so don't really understand what you mean

just to be clear, the only reason derby is mentioned in the query, is because there is no direct train from nottingham to sheffield after about 2145, which is about an hour too early.
hi, I was just advising, that Northern run direct trains Nottingham to Sheffield calling at Derby (I believe for route knowledge reasons), so am surprised if the ticket is not valid on that route.
 

cumbersome

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Oh I see now...thanks

not sure what precedent trumps what, but maybe the problem as Harpers alluded to is the change of train and operator at derby.
 

alistairlees

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surely the ticket is valid, otherwise, how could you travel on the direct Northern services via Derby...
Train 20:47 Nottingham [NOT]
5B
clear.gif
Sheffield [SHF]
21:58 8B 1h 11m
Calling points Arrives Departs
Derby [DBY] 21:08 21:10
Chesterfield [CHD] 21:31 21:31

Northern service from Nottingham to Sheffield hide calling points

Yes the £13.60 Nottingham - Derby SDS is valid on this service because it's direct; that doesn't make the fare valid on any other services via Derby (unfortunately)
 

MichaelAMW

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Yes the £13.60 Nottingham - Derby SDS is valid on this service because it's direct; that doesn't make the fare valid on any other services via Derby (unfortunately)

But it's no good if you're doing a journey that uses the same routeing points but requires a change, e.g. Nottingham to Meadowhall, Lowdham to Sheffield etc.
 

bb21

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This journey opportunity was withdrawn without the consent or knowledge of the train company (and quite possibly without the consent or knowledge of the Department for Transport) on 23 November 2016:

See:

Did anyone bring them to account by escalating the matter to their MP and relevant bodies?

If not, they will keep on doing this and many more passengers will continue to have their rights removed in years to come.

So the contractors tasked with maintaining the Routeing Guide did so without any consent from the TOCs?

Nottingham to Sheffield have been permitted via Derby for yonks. What a wonderful job they have done. :rolleyes:
 

yorkie

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So the contractors tasked with maintaining the Routeing Guide did so without any consent from the TOCs?
I didn't realise it was contractors doing it until very recently. (I thought that was meant to be a big secret ;)) although RDG are doing some changes themselves when an issue crops up. It's unclear who made this change, and why.

But yes, they don't bother consulting TOCs. Sometimes if one TOC requests a change, it will just happen, without consulting any others (eg. in 2013/2014 Sheffield to London had all mapped routes except via MML removed at the request of Virgin).

Do DfT have any idea what's going on?!
 

Hadders

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Given that it's been raised on here I suspect it'll get sorted out.
 

robbeech

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Oh I see now...thanks

not sure what precedent trumps what, but maybe the problem as Harpers alluded to is the change of train and operator at derby.

So as a bit of a conclusion to this, EMT staff don't have a problem with you using that route, but one way to ensure you are valid is to buy a Sheffield to Derby ticket which is valid via Nottingham.

On the way down you catch either a Nottingham Northern service or a Norwich EMT service to Nottingham, and on the way home you use the outward portion of your ticket again to travel to Derby. You then switch to the return portion to catch a service from Derby back to Sheffield.

The very fact that it is not valid the other way around is are frankly ridiculous as others have pointed out.
 

Starmill

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I've used this route with a similar ticket on a number of occasions since the route was removed, the tickets were accepted without problems. It is however, very disappointing that the map was removed. It isn't a loophole, there are through trains, it isn't a circuitous route and it is historically permitted.
 

alistairlees

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Certainly it is historically permitted. Many times in the past I have used Sheffield to Nottingham and Leeds to Nottingham, both via Derby (as well as via Alfreton).
 
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