NPR Routes

[Purple Orange]

I’ve been reading a bit about the HS2 proposals for catering for NPR services, and they propose 4 tph between Liverpool and Manchester plus 6 tph between Manchester and Leeds. It obviously makes sense to join the Liverpool services up with four of the Leeds services, but where will they go to? And what will become of the additional two Leeds to Manchester trains?

So what do folk think the service pattern will be? I think the following:

• Liverpool - Edinburgh via Newcastle
• Liverpool - Newcastle
• Liverpool - Hull
• Liverpool - York
• Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle
• Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds

The two Birmingham trains will be in addition to the Leeds - Birmingham services on HS2 eastern branch, but combining with the Manchester - Birmingham HS2 services.

Thoughts and predictions?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I’ve been reading a bit about the HS2 proposals for catering for NPR services, and they propose 4 tph between Liverpool and Manchester plus 6 tph between Manchester and Leeds. It obviously makes sense to join the Liverpool services up with four of the Leeds services, but where will they go to? And what will become of the additional two Leeds to Manchester trains?

So what do folk think the service pattern will be? I think the following:

• Liverpool - Edinburgh via Newcastle
• Liverpool - Newcastle
• Liverpool - Hull
• Liverpool - York
• Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle
• Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds

The two Birmingham trains will be in addition to the Leeds - Birmingham services on HS2 eastern branch, but combining with the Manchester - Birmingham HS2 services.

Thoughts and predictions?

Seems logical. Would the York service head to Scarborough maintaining he direct train to Scarborough from Liverpool and one Birmingham to Leeds via Manchester service extending to Redcar Central as at present maintain a direct link between Manchester and Redcar.

 

[Purple Orange]

Seems logical. Would the York service head to Scarborough maintaining he direct train to Scarborough from Liverpool and one Birmingham to Leeds via Manchester service extending to Redcar Central as at present maintain a direct link between Manchester and Redcar.

I’d have thought that the NPR services would stick to purely electrified lines, otherwise bi-mode trains would need to get involved on HS2 track, thus introducing greater variation in fleet. Birmingham-Manchester will be using 200m HS2 trains, which if extended to Leeds and beyond would need to be the classic compatible units.

It could be that towns such as Scarborough and Middlesbrough lose their connections to Manchester, yet there could be greater connectivity to Leeds and London.

 

[bluenoxid]

I guess it depends what the existing plans are for Manchester-Birmingham.

Personally, I would expect the extra Leeds to Manchester services to terminate at Manchester Piccadilly or Airport unless a link towards Chester or Preston becomes feasible.

At the eastern end, I would not rule out any currently non electrified lines. We are talking 15 years during, which both Scarborough and Middlesbrough are reasonable goers for electrification with no massive show stoppers apart from distance and cost.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I guess it depends what the existing plans are for Manchester-Birmingham.

Personally, I would expect the extra Leeds to Manchester services to terminate at Manchester Piccadilly or Airport unless a link towards Chester or Preston becomes feasible.

At the eastern end, I would not rule out any currently non electrified lines. We are talking 15 years during, which both Scarborough and Middlesbrough are reasonable goers for electrification with no massive show stoppers apart from distance and cost.

Very true we’ll have to see whether Piccadilly will be changed to an underground station in the IRPNM (integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands)

 

[Purple Orange]

That is true, we can’t rule out any further electrification, and I certainly would expect Hull to be wired up.

Yes a lot does depend on whether Piccadilly is underground or on the surface. Perhaps if it is a surface station, those two additional Leeds services may just terminate at Piccadilly. Also depends on how many reversing trains one platform can accommodate each hour.

 

[Roast Veg]

Is there anything suggesting a Liverpool-Edinburgh via NPR service is planned? I would have thought that service would remain on the WCML - with some linespeed improvements for non-EPS stock that HS2 will enjoy the benefits of as well.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Is there anything suggesting a Liverpool-Edinburgh via NPR service is planned? I would have thought that service would remain on the WCML - with some linespeed improvements for non-EPS stock that HS2 will enjoy the benefits of as well.

Liverpool to Edinburgh is done via the ECML though not the WCML

 

[Purple Orange]

NPR, like TPE, is not just about the end-to-end journey time. It needs to consider that it may be best to continue serving the Leeds & Newcastle markets in this way. The fact that the train starts in Liverpool doesn’t factor in to it.

With regards to Edinburgh, we may find it certainly faster to travel via the ECML from Manchester than the WCML, if there happens to be enough infrastructure built east of Manchester to close the journey time, given that there is no significant improvements planned for much of the north WCML.

From Liverpool it may always be slower via the ECML, but I think the introduction of a Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh service by TPE was a good decision from the perspective of giving greater choice to passengers.

 

[HST43257]

I’d suggest:

2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh
2tph Liverpool to Hull
2tph Crewe to Newcastle

If there was more cash in the bank I’d also suggest 2tph Liverpool to Middlesbrough via Leeds then up along the A1(M) past, and stopping at, Wetherby and Boroughbridge. From here it could go to Northallerton (with a stop there) and under the ECML there. Then it‘d go along the existing line to Middlesbrough. This is highly speculative and expensive so probably not going to happen

 

[Purple Orange]

I’d suggest:

2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh
2tph Liverpool to Hull
2tph Crewe to Newcastle

If there was more cash in the bank I’d also suggest 2tph Liverpool to Middlesbrough via Leeds then up along the A1(M) past, and stopping at, Wetherby and Boroughbridge. From here it could go to Northallerton (with a stop there) and under the ECML there. Then it‘d go along the existing line to Middlesbrough. This is highly speculative and expensive so probably not going to happen

Yeah perhaps a more simplified route network would be better. Although if you’re gong to Crewe, I’d continue the service on to Curzon Street.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Yeah perhaps a more simplified route network would be better. Although if you’re gong to Crewe, I’d continue the service on to Curzon Street.

There is more. Bearing in mind TfN states here: https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Potential-of-NPR_TfN-web.pdf

6tph between Liverpool and Manchester
6tph between Leeds and Manchester
4tph between Newcastle and Leeds
2tph between Hull and Leeds
2tph between Hull and Sheffield
4tph between Sheffield and Leeds
4tph between Manchester and Sheffield

so on those figures i would:

1. 2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh via Newcastle
2. 2tph Liverpool to Hull
3. 2tph Liverpool to Nottingham via Sheffield and Manchester partly proposed by SCR between Sheffield and Liverpool
4. 2tph Birmingham Curzon Street to Leeds via Manchester (extension of HS2 services)
5. 2tph London Euston to Hull via Sheffield (extension of HS2 service)
6. 2tph Sheffield to Newcastle via Leeds
7. 2tph Manchester to Cleethorpes (as at present with an increase to 2tph)
8. 2tph Leeds to Nottingham via Sheffield

 

[HST43257]

Yeah perhaps a more simplified route network would be better. Although if you’re gong to Crewe, I’d continue the service on to Curzon Street.

If this means there’s no HS2 Curzon Street to Manchester service, I’d agree to it.

There is more. Bearing in mind TfN states here: https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Potential-of-NPR_TfN-web.pdf

6tph between Liverpool and Manchester
6tph between Leeds and Manchester
4tph between Newcastle and Leeds
2tph between Hull and Leeds
2tph between Hull and Sheffield
4tph between Sheffield and Leeds
4tph between Manchester and Sheffield

so on those figures i would:

1. 2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh via Newcastle
2. 2tph Liverpool to Hull
3. 2tph Liverpool to Nottingham via Sheffield and Manchester partly proposed by SCR between Sheffield and Liverpool
4. 2tph Birmingham Curzon Street to Leeds via Manchester (extension of HS2 services)
5. 2tph London Euston to Hull via Sheffield (extension of HS2 service)
6. 2tph Sheffield to Newcastle via Leeds
7. 2tph Manchester to Cleethorpes (as at present with an increase to 2tph)
8. 2tph Leeds to Nottingham via Sheffield

This is far too over the top for my liking. Honestly, I wouldn’t run NPR along the HS2 Eastern Leg OR to Hull via Sheffield. The Goole route should receive an upgrade but that isn’t an upgrade that means it takes NPR on an unnecessary, indirect route.

My full service pattern would be:
2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh
2tph Liverpool to Hull
2tph Birmingham to Newcastle (via Manchester)
1tph Liverpool to Cleethorpes
1tph Liverpool to Nottingham

The Cleethorpes and Nottingham routes would replace the existing Manchester to Cleethorpes and Liverpool to Norwich services (EMR would still do Nottingham to Norwich). They’d take the NPR route from Liverpool to Manchester then existing lines through Stockport and along the current existing lines used to get to their destinations.

There’d also be 2tph from Liverpool to London, using NPR as far as the Warrington area as well as 2tph from London going to Manchester (sharing with NPR from the airport to Piccadill) - Perhaps these could extend through to Leeds as time goes on.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If this means there’s no HS2 Curzon Street to Manchester service, I’d agree to it.

This is far too over the top for my liking. Honestly, I wouldn’t run NPR along the HS2 Eastern Leg OR to Hull via Sheffield. The Goole route should receive an upgrade but that isn’t an upgrade that means it takes NPR on an unnecessary, indirect route.

My full service pattern would be:
2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh
2tph Liverpool to Hull
2tph Birmingham to Newcastle (via Manchester)
1tph Liverpool to Cleethorpes
1tph Liverpool to Nottingham

The Cleethorpes and Nottingham routes would replace the existing Manchester to Cleethorpes and Liverpool to Norwich services (EMR would still do Nottingham to Norwich). They’d take the NPR route from Liverpool to Manchester then existing lines through Stockport and along the current existing lines used to get to their destinations.

There’d also be 2tph from Liverpool to London, using NPR as far as the Warrington area as well as 2tph from London going to Manchester (sharing with NPR from the airport to Piccadill) - Perhaps these could extend through to Leeds as time goes on.

That doesn’t meet NPR’s aspirations though as highlighted in the document

 

[JonathanH]

2tph NPR to Edinburgh would rather suggest cutting out Cross Country north of Leeds / York - there are only so many tph of trains between Newcastle and Edinburgh that are needed.

Given it seems entirely feasible that TPE will stop running north of Newcastle at some point in the near future, other than perhaps to get units to and from Craigentinny, is 2tph to Edinburgh as part of NPR a bit out of range?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

2tph NPR to Edinburgh would rather suggest cutting out Cross Country north of Leeds / York - there are only so many tph of trains between Newcastle and Edinburgh that are needed.

Given it seems entirely feasible that TPE will stop running north of Newcastle at some point in the near future, other than perhaps to get units to and from Craigentinny, is 2tph to Edinburgh as part of NPR a bit out of range?

Maybe just 1tph or simply none

 

[Purple Orange]

2tph NPR to Edinburgh would rather suggest cutting out Cross Country north of Leeds / York - there are only so many tph of trains between Newcastle and Edinburgh that are needed.

Given it seems entirely feasible that TPE will stop running north of Newcastle at some point in the near future, other than perhaps to get units to and from Craigentinny, is 2tph to Edinburgh as part of NPR a bit out of range?

Not at all. XC is probably done for in a HS2 world. Links to brum will be better down the WCML.

If this means there’s no HS2 Curzon Street to Manchester service, I’d agree to it.

It would be a merging of the Manchester-Birmingham HS2 services with a service towards Leeds, I suppose using HS2 classic compatible trains.

 

[JonathanH]

Not at all. XC is probably done for in a HS2 world. Links to brum will be better down the WCML

What about links between Sheffield and Edinburgh? I agree that Edinburgh to Birmingham is better down the WCML.

 

[Purple Orange]

What about links between Sheffield and Edinburgh? I agree that Edinburgh to Birmingham is better down the WCML.

Actually wouldn’t Sheffield not be catered for by the Birmingham-Newcastle HS2 service? Surely it should continue to Edinburgh?

There are 4 tph between Newcastle & Edinburgh today and without the London services, surely there will be scope for 2 Manchester & 2 Birmingham tph?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Then it‘d go along the existing line to Middlesbrough. This is highly speculative and expensive so probably not going to happen

We can live and Hope!

Interestingly today I've been reading about the 'Union Connectivity Review' about improving cross connectivity between England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland.

Union connectivity review

Release of the terms of reference of the union connectivity review headed by Sir Peter Hendy.

www.gov.uk

written statement published 5th October 2020

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