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NPR - the shambles continues

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quantinghome

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The whole eastern leg would be put on hold, adding many years before any benefits are gained. Whereas this way the benefits of HS2 to the East Midlands will be felt sooner (and better)
When does the IRP envisage the leg to the East Midlands will open? When was the HS2 eastern leg planned to open?

The government claim that the East Midlands will benefit sooner is a colossal lie.
 
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A0wen

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It depends on what you use the transport for.

For instance increasing capacity on long distance (mostly leisure travel), such as HS2 would probably be worth getting on with.

Conversely something aimed at commuting such as travel from outer London to inner London probably can be paused for a while until things have settled down again.

However there's a level of complication, in that with an aging population and a it's likely that we've seen a number retire earlier than would be the case (likely most who were planning to retire by 2023 would have done so post furlough with many planning to retire by 2026 would have given it at least serious thought).

The consequences of that are difficult to guess, wage rises are likely with fewer staff, especially given that it's now harder to recruit staff from overseas. For some that will be a good thing, however it could also apply pressure to inflation which may cause issues for those on fixed incomes.

However some inflation would also mean that building infrastructure could also be better done sooner rather than later, especially if the interest on any loans are lower than the rate of inflation.

However it brings us back to the point that there's no clear plan on what we're doing with regards to transport.

Currently it appears to be moving back towards more and more road transport, which is likely to only end up with more and more congested roads.

Where's the evidence for the bit in bold - that long distance travel is "mostly leisure".

I'm not sure that bears scrutiny. Having travelled on various services heading to/from Nottingham / Derby / Sheffield to/from St Pancras over the years even at off peak times during the week a high proportion of those on board appeared to be "business" travellers e.g. working on laptops, dressed for work.

Equally the trains which are busy on a Saturday even in London commuter land are likely to be predominantly leisure travellers, but even then those trains aren't as busy as they are (were?) on a weekday.
 

Meerkat

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Can you advise how many people died as a result of this lack of safety competent person?
I'm sorry I didn't make it clear I was being somewhat sarcastic!!
When does the IRP envisage the leg to the East Midlands will open? When was the HS2 eastern leg planned to open?

The government claim that the East Midlands will benefit sooner is a colossal lie.
When the Eastern leg was originally planned to open is pretty irrelevant.
With the need to prioritise the TRU/NPR the question is if the eastern leg was still planned when would it open.
 

quantinghome

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When the Eastern leg was originally planned to open is pretty irrelevant.
With the need to prioritise the TRU/NPR the question is if the eastern leg was still planned when would it open.
It would have been perfectly possible to build both at the same time. Alternatively if the government has decided to cap investment spending, then they could have opted to build the eastern leg in stages - build to the East Midlands first, then continue up to Leeds as funding becomes available. Fact is that cancelling the eastern leg doesn't bring benefits to the East Midlands quicker. That's a clear untruth from the mouths of government ministers, including the PM.

Why do you think we need to prioritise NPR? Did we prioritise the M62 over the M1 north of Nottingham? No, we built both at the same time. Did our economy suffer because we were building too many motorways at once? Saying "we need to prioritise" is just not correct. Why would we need to do that? We don't.

Fact is the government has made a CHOICE to cancel infrastructure investment on the basis of arbitrary limits of investment spending.
 

Meerkat

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It would have been perfectly possible to build both at the same time. Alternatively if the government has decided to cap investment spending, then they could have opted to build the eastern leg in stages - build to the East Midlands first, then continue up to Leeds as funding becomes available. Fact is that cancelling the eastern leg doesn't bring benefits to the East Midlands quicker. That's a clear untruth from the mouths of government ministers, including the PM.

Why do you think we need to prioritise NPR? Did we prioritise the M62 over the M1 north of Nottingham? No, we built both at the same time. Did our economy suffer because we were building too many motorways at once? Saying "we need to prioritise" is just not correct. Why would we need to do that? We don't.

Fact is the government has made a CHOICE to cancel infrastructure investment on the basis of arbitrary limits of investment spending.
AIUI NPR was coming after Eastern leg and has now jumped it. This version gets lots of the benefits without waiting to the end of the queue.
If this is descending into the madness of 'the government can just borrow as much money as it likes' then I am out.
 

quantinghome

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AIUI NPR was coming after Eastern leg and has now jumped it. This version gets lots of the benefits without waiting to the end of the queue.
The (heavily curtailed) NPR has jumped the Eastern leg by default as the government has cancelled the Eastern leg (bar the spur to the E-Ms)

If this is descending into the madness of 'the government can just borrow as much money as it likes' then I am out.
It isn't. Obviously the government can't just borrow and borrow.

But the government can, does, and should borrow to invest, just like businesses do. The problem is the Treasury has set an entirely arbitrary cap of 3% GDP on investment spending at a time when government borrowing is as cheap as it ever has been. Having the means available to invest in the country but refusing to do so is the real madness.
 

CdBrux

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IIRC then the direction for East leg to East Midlands Parkway is to design it so it can still be extended and also none of the safeguarding is to be lifted, or at least just yet. So therefore a later completion is still possible, just a lower priority to the point it's not included
 

HSTEd

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The IRP was a creation of desperate accountants at the Treasury to allow them to kill the rest of HS2 and divert attention to possible projects in the 2040s - which they can push back over and over again later.

It's just a way to avoid spending anything serious on transport.

Meanwhile in Paris they are building Metro Line 15, amongst other projects, which is 75km of completely tunnelled metro.
 

quantinghome

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The IRP was a creation of desperate accountants at the Treasury to allow them to kill the rest of HS2 and divert attention to possible projects in the 2040s - which they can push back over and over again later.

It's just a way to avoid spending anything serious on transport.

Meanwhile in Paris they are building Metro Line 15, amongst other projects, which is 75km of completely tunnelled metro.
We're British dammit! Failing to invest in transport infrastructure is one of our finest traditions, which the current government is proudly committed to upholding. You'll not find us doing any of this filthy continental investment malarky, I thank you.
 

The Ham

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Where's the evidence for the bit in bold - that long distance travel is "mostly leisure".

I'm not sure that bears scrutiny. Having travelled on various services heading to/from Nottingham / Derby / Sheffield to/from St Pancras over the years even at off peak times during the week a high proportion of those on board appeared to be "business" travellers e.g. working on laptops, dressed for work.

Equally the trains which are busy on a Saturday even in London commuter land are likely to be predominantly leisure travellers, but even then those trains aren't as busy as they are (were?) on a weekday.

I didn't say that historically that long distance was leisure, rather as things stand where business travel hasn't fully recovered whilst leisure appears to have done so, as such chances are currently that is the majority.

However the main point was compared with outer to inner London which is likely to be much more impacted by the changes in travel.
 

Grimsby town

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Where's the evidence for the bit in bold - that long distance travel is "mostly leisure".

I'm not sure that bears scrutiny. Having travelled on various services heading to/from Nottingham / Derby / Sheffield to/from St Pancras over the years even at off peak times during the week a high proportion of those on board appeared to be "business" travellers e.g. working on laptops, dressed for work.

Equally the trains which are busy on a Saturday even in London commuter land are likely to be predominantly leisure travellers, but even then those trains aren't as busy as they are (were?) on a weekday.

If you look at the national travel survey long distance trips (50 miles+), you'll see that around 25% of trips are business or commuting around 60% are leisure and around 15% are personal business such as education. The ECML 2022 timetable consultation document gives a figure of around 56% being leisure journeys. On the WCML I can only find a figure from 2013 which shows mainly business travellers but business travel has been declining over the past decade as despite the post covid narrative, video conferencing has been around for a decade.

I don't understand the 'we don't know if there is still demand for transport' argument. We can quite clearly see that at the most the fall in overall travel demand has been something like 5% and that any reductions are likely to be commuter related. Car journeys are roughly at pre-covid level and if we want to reduce the impacts of climate change we need to reduce this.

I also don't get the argument that we don't know if rail demand will ever recover. Whether rail demand recovers is largely based on government policy with a few other factors thrown. If we suddenly decreased rail fares rail demand would recover easily even if the make up of demand changes. In my job as a planner, I see nothing that suggests rail growth won't continue to grow. If office demand continues to be reduced offices will be converted into houses as we have a growing population (assuming brexit hasn't had a significant impact). Things like clean air zones, pedestrianisation, new light rail lines and bus deregulation should make public transport more competitive against cars and boost rail demand. Basically we don't know if commuting demand is coming back but we can be 99% sure rail demand is going to continue to grow rapidly albeit from a lower base than pre-covid.
 

A0wen

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I don't understand the 'we don't know if there is still demand for transport' argument. We can quite clearly see that at the most the fall in overall travel demand has been something like 5% and that any reductions are likely to be commuter related.

What we *don't* know is what that future demand will look like. Pre - Covid there were well established trends which could be used to predict. That's not the case currently.

. Car journeys are roughly at pre-covid level and if we want to reduce the impacts of climate change we need to reduce this.

Here we go again - another anti car rant. The problem will always be rail lacks the flexibility most people require - it's no good for your local shopping trip, it's no good for most holidays. Get over it, the car isn't going away no matter how much you shout and stamp your feet.

I also don't get the argument that we don't know if rail demand will ever recover. Whether rail demand recovers is largely based on government policy with a few other factors thrown. If we suddenly decreased rail fares rail demand would recover easily even if the make up of demand changes. In my job as a planner, I see nothing that suggests rail growth won't continue to grow. If office demand continues to be reduced offices will be converted into houses as we have a growing population (assuming brexit hasn't had a significant impact). Things like clean air zones, pedestrianisation, new light rail lines and bus deregulation should make public transport more competitive against cars and boost rail demand. Basically we don't know if commuting demand is coming back but we can be 99% sure rail demand is going to continue to grow rapidly albeit from a lower base than pre-covid.

If you reduce rail fares you might recover demand but will doubtless exacerbate the financial problems the railways have. There is a financial hole which needs to be addressed so growing the network and expanding services will only happen where their business case shows they aren't making that financial hole bigger. Again you and others won't like this, will shout and scream that it's unfair, biased against rail etc, etc - but the facts don't change even if you don't like them.
 

Meerkat

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But the government can, does, and should borrow to invest, just like businesses do. The problem is the Treasury has set an entirely arbitrary cap of 3% GDP on investment spending at a time when government borrowing is as cheap as it ever has been. Having the means available to invest in the country but refusing to do so is the real madness.
You are making the assumption that Eastern leg is still an investment after the cost rises of the first phase and the changed demand of post Covid.
Government spending might be cheap, but it still has to be paid back or refinanced sometime.
 

Grimsby town

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What we *don't* know is what that future demand will look like. Pre - Covid there were well established trends which could be used to predict. That's not the case currently.



Here we go again - another anti car rant. The problem will always be rail lacks the flexibility most people require - it's no good for your local shopping trip, it's no good for most holidays. Get over it, the car isn't going away no matter how much you shout and stamp your feet.



If you reduce rail fares you might recover demand but will doubtless exacerbate the financial problems the railways have. There is a financial hole which needs to be addressed so growing the network and expanding services will only happen where their business case shows they aren't making that financial hole bigger. Again you and others won't like this, will shout and scream that it's unfair, biased against rail etc, etc - but the facts don't change even if you don't like them.

All demand work is an estimation anyway. Its pretty clear that off peak rail travel will continue to grow and intercity rail travel has bounced back strongly and is likely to continue to grow. I don't think its silly to invest in those routes particularly on routes in the North where the infrastructure is so poor, there is no way investments won't be successful.

It's not anti-car to say that we can't just keep adding car journeys. The population of the UK is growing. If car ownership levels keep growing we'll be needing to find millions of extra car parking spaces which simply isn't desirable / feasable. People can live without cars easily in major cities. Rural areas and small cities are always going to be reliant on cars. If you get triggered by every small change that makes car usage slightly harder you're in for a rough few years because that's the way planning is going.

One thing that is certain about rail demand post covid is that it is more price elastic. Less people now feel an absolute need to travel to the work and therefore will be less willing to pay higher prices. Decreasing prices may actually increase revenue.
 

HSTEd

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If you reduce rail fares you might recover demand but will doubtless exacerbate the financial problems the railways have. There is a financial hole which needs to be addressed so growing the network and expanding services will only happen where their business case shows they aren't making that financial hole bigger. Again you and others won't like this, will shout and scream that it's unfair, biased against rail etc, etc - but the facts don't change even if you don't like them.
I don't know where on the Laffer curve we are but I am willing to entertain the idea of piling it high, and selling it cheap, actually improving financial position of the railways.

But in either case, the most important thing is the £ per unit good done for society - if we built a railway that needed twice the subsidy but moved tne times the number of people, I think we'd be in a better position in terms of persuading the Treasury to pay for it!
 

The Ham

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What we *don't* know is what that future demand will look like. Pre - Covid there were well established trends which could be used to predict. That's not the case currently.

Whilst we don't know (and we never can), there's a number is reasons to encourage a switch from air and road based travel to rail

Here we go again - another anti car rant. The problem will always be rail lacks the flexibility most people require - it's no good for your local shopping trip, it's no good for most holidays. Get over it, the car isn't going away no matter how much you shout and stamp your feet.

Cars will almost always have a part to play in our travel mix, however it is not anti car to say that too much travel is currently undertaken by car when other nodes of travel could well be better.

Given that cars have high up front costs, a significant reduction in the number of regulator trips by car (such as driving to/from work every day to a few times a week) could actually make it more likely that some could increase their rail use (this isn't likely to happen quickly as it's likely to be something younger couples would be likely to do over those who have had two cars for years).

For every trip which is undertaken by foot, by bike, by bus and by train then it reduces the number of trips by car. Given the limited road space that we have, that can only be a good thing. Unless we undertake a significant programme of road building in some of our most congested urban areas (and the upheaval and cost that would require), then we are stuck with needing to fund public transport and bringing in measures which could be seen as anti car.

However if you want to drive on roads which are not full of traffic then you want to encourage an many other people as possible not to drive. That's likely to come at a cost to you, however that cost does produce benefits.

As an example, the congestion charge in London (when first introduced) meant that rather than stop start traffic through very Central London, that it was actually quite nice driving. Yes there was a cost, but for business that charge was offset by staff being more productive as they spent a lot less time in traffic.

For the local population it meant that there were fewer cars than would have otherwise been the case, giving them better air quality.

Actual one of the best ways to reduce car ownership is the use of car clubs, as typically each one reduces the number of cars owned in the local area by about 18. Given that cars parked on carriageway reduces capacity of the road network, then this is certainly to be encourage.

Even if it doesn't increase road carrying capacity, the fact that it would increase the ability to park when going and visiting others is likely to be of significant benefit to many.

Yes cars are here to stay, however their use should be reduced (at least a little) from what we currently do. The problem is to get that to happen the most efficient way to do so is to add a cost, be that a monitory cost or a time cost.

Such methods are labelled as anti car, however those costs being added are tiny compared with the costs which would need to be added even to reduce car use by 20% let alone wipe out entirely car use.

Given that 85% of people live in an urban area (a settlement with over 10,000 people in) the fact that over 80% of all travel is by car shows that there's a lot of urban travel which could fairly easily be reduced a little without impacting the number of people having access to a car. Certainly long before we need to be forcing the elderly and disabled out of their cars and a fair amount of time before we need to consider impacting on those who live in rural areas.

If you reduce rail fares you might recover demand but will doubtless exacerbate the financial problems the railways have. There is a financial hole which needs to be addressed so growing the network and expanding services will only happen where their business case shows they aren't making that financial hole bigger. Again you and others won't like this, will shout and scream that it's unfair, biased against rail etc, etc - but the facts don't change even if you don't like them.

As others have highlighted income may increase. However the other thing to note the cost of running HS2 services are likely to be cheaper than other long distance rail services.

Lease costs of the trains typically account for about 1/3 of all TOC costs, yet HS2 because of its speed is likely to need comparable numbers of coaches to the existing services, even though there'll be 16 coaches per train compared with 9 or 11.

Taking Manchester as an example it currently requires 1 unit every 5 hours before it can run the next service, with 3tph and 9 coaches per train that requires 135 coaches, however there's at least some 11 coach units, so the upper limit is 165.

However compare this with HS2 which will likely require 1 unit every 3 hours, with 3tph and 16 coaches per train this requires 144 coaches which means that if 1/3 of the existing services are 11 coaches long then the number of coaches needed (145) is almost identical.

However one of the suggestions for increasing capacity without building HS2 is lengthening to 12 coaches, if we do that then the maximum number of coaches needed rises to 180. As such the cost to the TOC of running services without HS2 could start to increase significantly. Whilst it's unlikely to be by enough to pay for the building of HS2, the extra capacity provided could allow more to travel which could do.

However that's only one TOC cost, another large cost is staffing (again about 1/3 of costs), well with drivers being able to run more services within a shift that cost also reduces. As rather than needing 10 hours of staff time to run 2 complete services (i.e. London, Manchester, London, Manchester, London) you could run 3 complete services in 9 hours of staff time (i.e. London, Manchester, London, Manchester, London, Manchester, London).

Yes there'll be a need for more energy costs, however these terms to be quite a small cost overall as they come within the remaining 1/3 of costs which includes several other costs including headquarter costs, ticket sales costs, etc.

Even at 12 coaches you'd only manage about 660 seats per train, HS2 is targeting 1,100 seats per train. If you fill them to the same percentage capacity then your HS2 ticket prices could be on average 60% of the price of the existing services, but with the extra passengers being in the same income. However having detailed above that the costs would be at least slightly lower, the overall "profit" would still be higher.
 

quantinghome

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You are making the assumption that Eastern leg is still an investment after the cost rises of the first phase and the changed demand of post Covid.
Government spending might be cheap, but it still has to be paid back or refinanced sometime.
The transport corridor from Birmingham to Leeds has a high population density, very congested roads and particularly substandard intercity, regional and local rail services. It's a prime candidate for a new main line. Without it, HS2 is essentially a WCML bypass. With it, all North-South intercity lines are relieved - WCML, MML, ECML and XC.

As for any long term covid effect, this corridor is not overly reliant on commuter flows compared to the south-east so is unlikely to sustain a long term hit to passenger demand; indeed by some measures passenger numbers at Leeds are already back to pre-covid levels.

What have the cost rises of the first leg got to do with it? If mistakes have been made there, any sensible country would be looking to learn from them and build the next stages more efficiently.

Transport infrastructure is a key part of improving our country's economic growth, which is the only way to deal with government debt over the long term. By failing to invest in infrastructure, the government is basically giving up on the idea that the North's economic performance can be raised to the levels of the south-east. It's utterly self-defeating.
 
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Meerkat

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The transport corridor from Birmingham to Leeds has a high population density, very congested roads and particularly substandard intercity, regional and local rail services. It's a prime candidate for a new main line.
That's all well and good, but it doesn't mean you build one whatever the cost.
As for any long term covid effect, this corridor is not overly reliant on commuter flows compared to the south-east so is unlikely to sustain a long term hit to passenger demand
Presumably HS2 business case did rely on lots of business travel in/out of London. You sure those predictions are still solid?
What have the cost rises of the first leg got to do with it? If mistakes have been made there, any sensible country would be looking to learn from them and build the next stages more efficiently.
Or the cost is the cost and it was the budget that was wrong.
Transport infrastructure is a key part of improving our country's economic growth, which is the only way to deal with government debt over the long term.
That only applies to transport infrastructure that has a business case. Even if the government could and would just print money for a few billion of more transport infrastructure that wouldnt mean that HS2 Eastern Leg would be the best way to spend it.
 

quantinghome

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Presumably HS2 business case did rely on lots of business travel in/out of London. You sure those predictions are still solid?
In the long term, yes. Demand for physical travel has always increased with improved remote communication. There's no reason to suggest this trend will change.

Or the cost is the cost and it was the budget that was wrong.
By international comparison and comparison with HS1, HS2 construction costs are high. Learning lessons in terms of sensible value engineering measures and contracting strategy will bring down costs. And the Eastern leg would be cheaper anyway mile-for-mile given there a far fewer tunnels planned.

That only applies to transport infrastructure that has a business case. Even if the government could and would just print money for a few billion of more transport infrastructure that wouldnt mean that HS2 Eastern Leg would be the best way to spend it.
As William Barter pointed out, we live in a country littered with descoped transport projects which have subsequently required expensive upgrades to correct, and very few examples of transport projects which were not worth building.

The business cases for the Jubilee Line Extension, HS1, and Crossrail were not strong. Yet no one seriously suggests that these projects should not have been built.

You appear to be convinced for some reason that the densely populated and congested corridor from Birmingham to Leeds is not worth spending serious money on new transport infrastructure. I have no idea why. The chances of this turning out to be wasted investment is vanishingly small given our track record.

Back in the mid-1990s the Treasury cancelled Crossrail because there had been a downturn in commuting demand (early 90s recession) and therefore 'no business case'. Years later, after looking at some crackpot ideas for running Heathrow trains around the Circle line to the City, it was finally realised that Crossrail was needed after all. It's opening next year, 20 years late. I suspect we'll see the same thing happen with the HS2 Eastern leg.
 

The Ham

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That only applies to transport infrastructure that has a business case. Even if the government could and would just print money for a few billion of more transport infrastructure that wouldnt mean that HS2 Eastern Leg would be the best way to spend it.

Whilst it may not be the best way to spend the money, that isn't the same as it not worth doing.

There's an argument that by building roads instead, with better business cases, it costs the country in the form of congestion and a need to reduce our carbon emissions from other things more than we would have otherwise needed to do. Both of which aren't within a traditional business case, even though they are likely outcomes. However they add to the costs of the country (and in the form of pollution costs too the whole world).

That's an article suggesting that the carbon emissions from the third runway at Heathrow would add between £50bn and £100bn to the cost of the country only a small fraction of which would be recovered through taxes.
 

Meerkat

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In the long term, yes. Demand for physical travel has always increased with improved remote communication. There's no reason to suggest this trend will change.
Got the stats for that, showing that lovely full price business travel will continue to grow as before even after Covid has proved a lot of it is unnecessary?
By international comparison and comparison with HS1, HS2 construction costs are high.
You appear to be convinced for some reason that the densely populated and congested corridor from Birmingham to Leeds

I think you are disagreeing with yourself here
 

quantinghome

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Got the stats for that, showing that lovely full price business travel will continue to grow as before even after Covid has proved a lot of it is unnecessary?
Covid hasn't proved anything of the sort. As far as long term travel trends go, it's a blip. We've seen far bigger disruptions to society over the past few centuries, and of course massive improvements to remote communications. Yet none of this has resulted in people wanting to travel less in the long term. A quick look at our roads shows that overall demand for travel has not fallen.

I think you are disagreeing with yourself here
Well somehow HS2 planned a route from Birmingham to Leeds which required very few tunnels compared to Phase 1. Of course it's always going to be relatively expensive to build high speed lines in areas with higher population density. But we could learn lessons from Phase 1 and drive costs down. Things like the level of construction risk borne by the contractor have increased costs when they needn't have.
 
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Meerkat

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Covid hasn't proved anything of the sort. As far as long term travel trends go, it's a blip. We've seen far bigger disruptions to society over the past few centuries, and of course massive improvements to remote communications. Yet none of this has resulted in people wanting to travel less in the long term. A quick look at our roads shows that overall demand for travel has not fallen.


Well somehow HS2 planned a route from Birmingham to Leeds which required very few tunnels compared to Phase 1. Of course it's always going to be relatively expensive to build high speed lines in areas with higher population density. But we could learn lessons from Phase 1 and drive costs down. Things like the level of construction risk borne by the contractor have increased costs when they needn't have.
So you are just guessing. Covid is an upheaval, not a blip. At the very least it’s set back growth by many years, so it’s reasonable to delay Eastern leg by many years.
Will the small efficiency gains overcome the significant construction inflation?
 

Glenn1969

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So you are just guessing. Covid is an upheaval, not a blip. At the very least it’s set back growth by many years, so it’s reasonable to delay Eastern leg by many years.
Will the small efficiency gains overcome the significant construction inflation?
I think it's a blip and in 2 years time its effects will be substantially lower
 

Meerkat

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I think it's a blip and in 2 years time its effects will be substantially lower
Would you be willing to bet billions on that? On something that just brings criticism of delays, cost, plus NIMBYs and environmentalists?
 

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What we *don't* know is what that future demand will look like. Pre - Covid there were well established trends which could be used to predict. That's not the case currently.

Covid hasn't proved anything of the sort. As far as long term travel trends go, it's a blip. We've seen far bigger disruptions to society over the past few centuries, and of course massive improvements to remote communications. Yet none of this has resulted in people wanting to travel less in the long term. A quick look at our roads shows that overall demand for travel has not fallen.
A very senior economist colleague of mine used to have a favourite slide which he used to debunk projections based on any kind of short term trend. It took a graph of the historic growth in something over time (doesn't much matter what) and projected forward from just before each kink in the graph, with an effect something like a wobbly Christmas tree lying on its side. I think @AOwen is right, but for the wrong reason. It's the implications of climate change that are so uncertain. Will technology really allow us to carry on just as we do now but with low emissions, as Boris promises?

Anyway I think we are way OT. The point I read out of the OP and the first few posts was that the government has announced a plan with specific promises attached but has no idea whether they can be delivered, and (worse) what the consequences will be in terms of capacity if the journey time promises are to be met. The danger is that the industry will come up with a costed plan to meet them which will promptly be condemned by the Treasury as either having an inadequate BCR or just being unaffordable.
 

quantinghome

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Covid is an upheaval, not a blip. At the very least it’s set back growth by many years, so it’s reasonable to delay Eastern leg by many years.
It feels like a major upheaval now, but it won't in a couple of years.

Besides, the need for major interventions on the Birmingham-Leeds corridor is not a new thing. It has been fully evident for at least 20 years, since Operation Princess crashed and burned. The fact that current infrastructure only allows for 1 'fast' (ha-ha) train per hour between Leeds and Sheffield is a clear red flag that new infrastructure is needed.

So you are just guessing.
Unless you're a time traveller, so are you. My view is at least based on solid historical trends. Your view seems to be that temporary public health interventions have irrevocably changed public transport demand. You haven't even tried to explain why that will be the case.
 
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Meerkat

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Yes. Because the infrastructure was creaking 15 years ago
And the IRP gets that upgraded sooner and over a wider area.
Unless you're a time traveller, so are you. My view is at least based on solid historical trends. Your view seems to be that temporary public health interventions have irrevocably changed public transport demand. You haven't even tried to explain why that will be the case.
There is a big difference between guessing and spending tens of billions, and guessing and not spending tens of billions until you are more certain.
I did explain why it was the case - people have had to live without business travel for months, and that will call into question whether it was necessary anyway.
Its like when there are tube closures and people have to find new routes - a noticeable percentage of them carry on using the new routes as they find they were actually better than the way they had been doing things.
But as someone pointed out this is skirting the edge of the OPs topic, and so we should probably just accept we dont and wont agree with each other!
 
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