NR High speed proposal

[asylumxl]

For obvious reasons, the route passes through, or close to, the largest commercial and business centres in the UK.

The East Coast does not have such centres, other than arguably Leeds. and possibly Newcastle, but they cannot compete with the Cities along the West Coast.

Business centres in England you mean. I'd consider Edinburgh a business centre, aswell as the services which extend to Glasgow.

It's just a sham. 11 years for a line up to Birmingham? Come on, that's forever in comparison to other countries. It serves where they want it to serve for their personal benefit.

Preston?!

 

[Metroland]

On page 11 of the synopsis document (see http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5892.aspx) NR respond to the question of "why not connect Leeds and the North East?" with:

Two main reasons:
1. Connecting Leeds through Manchester has a large incremental cost and does not provide a significant journey time benefit over the London-Leeds direct service on the East Coast Main Line
2. Leeds is the top target market for what could potentially be a London to the North East high-speed line. If this was added to the proposal, the case for the second line would be substantially weakened
​

You can argue both sides of that one, and I'm sure you lot will.

It's usually because CBA takes into account switching traffic from other lines. It's no good Leeds being included, because we all know the ECML is a cash cow and has decent high speed services anyway. I suspect there is a case for upping ECML speeds, so long as you can find something to do with stopping traffic!

 

[flymo]

So a new line or at least vastly improved line from London to Glasgow in 21 years time. Well I should bloody well hope so!
Don't worry, by 2030 there will be a 5 minute queue for the teleport (I seen it on Star Trek) at Euston and your luggage will follow soon, possibly via Alpha Centauri.
A huge non-event for me I'm afraid. So 400-odd miles in 2h16m so that is about an average speed of 177 mph. Can't wait to see the tilt on those trains.
I'll be 64 in 2030, can't wait to ride 400bn quid railway.

[Victor Meldrew voice] I don't believe it! [\voice]

 

[Mike Redding]

Does anyone know if there will be a station at Carlisle? I think it would be a very good idea as it is already an interchange point for services on the Cumbrian coast and the Tyne valley, as well as south scotland serices.

 

[LondonLarry]

It's nice to see there are still plenty of cynics out there!

Hasn't the 21 year wait got something to do with the extremely lengthy public consultation process we have in this country?

With HS2, few people will use the ECML for journeys between London and Scotland. In theory, this should open up more journey opportunities to those on the ECML by introducing more stops to services.

Don't forget, that a business case has to be built to justify HS2 - they're not going to spend £34bn to satisfy a small number of businesses and passengers by building lines via Leeds, Nottingham and Leicester...

 

[asylumxl]

Does anyone know if there will be a station at Carlisle? I think it would be a very good idea as it is already an interchange point for services on the Cumbrian coast and the Tyne valley, as well as south scotland serices.

I'd have picked Crewe or Carlisle, but apparently the government don't care.

I doubt this line will get many customers anyway, if the prices on HS1 are anything to go by.

 

[LondonLarry]

I'd have picked Crewe or Carlisle, but apparently the government don't care.

I doubt this line will get many customers anyway, if the prices on HS1 are anything to go by.

The paper has come from Network Rail - the government is producing its own document which will be released in December.

I agree that Preston's an odd choice and Crewe would be better. I also think that Warrington's an odd choice too - I wonder which NR directors live there!

I suspect Warrington and Preston will be where HS2 joins the existing lines and both stations are part of the TransPennine network. There could be an opportunity for investment on these routes.

 

[dave12435]

it took long enough for us to get into the game with HSR
the route is good and as said it will be easy n cheap to build links loops spurs and so on to places like leeds once it is built
an interesting idea i have seen mooted on these forums is a link towards bristol
this would work really well, the best exampl i can think of is Japanese HSR "mini shinkasnen" routes this is pretty muh what WCML upgrade created with possible but not currently achievable line speed of 140mph
with the route to Bristol and the west being mainly built for orginially borad gauge track it would be realtively easy to convert that into a similar thing once elctrified and order train stock that is able to run at normal lower linespeed whil on normal style routes that can run at full HSR style speed once it gets onto the HS line
also dont forget that once one HS line is built the equipment technology willing etc will already exist to build more as more and more people want ther city linked up
Edit: there should be a station at carlisle OR crewe or BOTH as they serve large surrounding populations and for connections
and the same applies to preston serves lancaster the fylde so on and soon whihc have large populations as well

 

[sheff'd victoria]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8221540.stm

forgive me if i am wrong, but didn't the government setup HS2 to provide this report?
Exactly what is the point of providing a High Speed Rail report when effectively what it is saying is "Build a new WCML" even though they've just spent billions "improving" it?

To ignore the trans-pennine route, M1 corridor to Leeds and the north east is surely indicative of the problems we face with NR. Complete head in the sand, unbelieveable short-sightedness

Have to agree , Sheffield is to lose out again

 

[j0hn0]

Errrrrrm.......No it wasn't actually!

Great Western mainline, and Manchester - Liverpool only announced.

doh, ah well, you have some of the best DMU's on the network so its not all bad

Maybe the reason is that the new high speed line will be the third north south electrified line and I guess they will need somewhere to cascade the old rolling stock. Perhaps more HST services will begin once IEP gets into full swing

 

[chic]

All good news.
Has work started on the "Waverley route" yet? Could it be suitable for the 200mph service from the Borders to Edinburgh? Local trains fitting inbetween the HS1S services... I take it Transport-Scotland will be funding the routes between Edinburgh/Glasgow and Carlisle.

There's some talk of sticking the edinburgh trams on the waverley line! So anyone's guess there. Dunno how you schedule a tram with a 200mph HS train.

I think there's buildings over the old line formation south of tweedbank or wherever it's meant to terminate and the connection back to carlisle is meant to be far too expensive. (maybe not in the world of HS lines)

I had a look at the NR summary report and if by 2016/2017 with the EGIP works, it's a 30 odd minute journey between Edinburgh and Glasgow, then why suggest having the HS line run to a 'caledonian junction' Wouldn't it be better to have it go to one city or another than have a 'carstairs junction' arrangement and further upgrade the EGIP line at that point as the technology will have improved.

I've read a few article about the HS line missing out leeds or newcastle, but shouldn't the view be that NR are talking about a first section of a HS network rather than that one line to Birmingham/Manchester/Scotland being the only HS line.

Anyway, we've a while yet until HS Two report and at least they'll have a detailed route, not the estimated distances used in the Nr report.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Leeds, Sheffield, Leicester and Nottingham are small fry compared to London, Birmingham and Manchester. And Newcastle is nowhere near as important as its inhabitants seem to think. They dont even have a top division football team....

A football team doesn't really matter - what an idiotic way to put things. Newcastle has grown and grown to the extent of overcrowding on some lines & Surely London would be the main hub for ANY High Speed Network? Surely the route should atleast include Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh & Glasgow (as the ECML line is), yet 3 of the main hubs are in this. I do, however, agree that Manchester & Birmingham are also major hubs - but there is no right or wrong answer. There are many major hubs spread out across the country.

 

[Metroland]

There are a lot of supporting documents here:

[youtube]w37xdvzJz7c[/youtube]

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5892.aspx

For those interested in the business case the link is:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/About us/New Lines Programme/5883_Strategic Business Case.pdf

for those interested in the experience of other countries, there is a document here

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/docume...investment, an overview of the literature.pdf

For those interested in the environmental impact, included embedded emissions (construction pollution), there is a very detailed document here

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/docume...mpact of conventional and high speed rail.pdf

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Has work started on the "Waverley route" yet? Could it be suitable for the 200mph service from the Borders to Edinburgh? Local trains fitting inbetween the HS1S services...

That would be a more direct route than the current circuitous route of the ECML. But the proposals for the Waverly route is largely single track with loops on the "easy" stretches and with relatively low linespeeds.
Then there's two ranges of hills to cross south of Galashiels before you reach the most likely English routes - whatever side of the Pennines you choose.

 

[arthur maunsell]

A football team doesn't really matter - what an idiotic way to put things. Newcastle has grown and grown to the extent of overcrowding on some lines & Surely London would be the main hub for ANY High Speed Network? Surely the route should atleast include Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh & Glasgow (as the ECML line is), yet 3 of the main hubs are in this. I do, however, agree that Manchester & Birmingham are also major hubs - but there is no right or wrong answer. There are many major hubs spread out across the country.

the chosen route quite clearly serves a huge proportion of the nations population...the east Coast by comparison is more thinly populated. I think having lines to both Glascow and Edinburgh might be overkill though .

 

[Drsatan]

It would make sense to build a link to Edinburgh since it's the capital of Scotland (keeps the bloody SNP happy) and has a population of about 400,00, which I think would justify a high speed line. It's also the 2nd most popular tourist destination after London so a high speed line might help the tourist trade. However, that won't be much use if the fares are too high. Given that London-Manchester is something ridiculous (£220 before 0930), the fares on this new high speed line would have to be fairly reasonable e.g. £80 for London - Edinburgh return which is about the same as most budget airlines (excluding airport taxes, baggage charges etc.)

 

[tbtc]

One line is never going to satisfy everyone and everywhere.

Personally, I could see the jusitfication for this line if the WCML hadn't already swallowed a lot of money in the last few years. However, if it'll be another twenty years before this new line opens then I suppose the WCML will need renewing! It's just a case of what else gets done in the meantime.

I'd much rather the billions were spent on more practical little improvements - for that kind of money you could "solve" every bottle neck, build a ten track line over Welwyn, electrify the Heart of Wales line and maybe even make the Wrexham - Chester line double tracked

 

[chic]

It would make sense to build a link to Edinburgh since it's the capital of Scotland (keeps the bloody SNP happy) and has a population of about 400,00, which I think would justify a high speed line. It's also the 2nd most popular tourist destination after London so a high speed line might help the tourist trade. However, that won't be much use if the fares are too high. Given that London-Manchester is something ridiculous (£220 before 0930), the fares on this new high speed line would have to be fairly reasonable e.g. £80 for London - Edinburgh return which is about the same as most budget airlines (excluding airport taxes, baggage charges etc.)

Edinburgh might be the capital, but the Glasgow conurbation is the bigger with more transport opportunities to outlying towns and it has to be assumed a bigger market. Edinburgh gets the tartan tat tourism, bankers and politicians

 

[fireincairo]

Hopefully after this gets built in 2050 (after the inevitable delays) they will consider a line up the East Coast. However for the time being, who honestly wants to go to Sheffield?

 

[tbtc]

who honestly wants to go to Sheffield?

Well, apparently nobody wants to live in the Midlands - not even the majority of people who live there... :roll:

The Midlands could become an expanse of ghost towns if residents had the opportunity to move, a survey released today claims.


Three quarters of the region's population would relocate tomorrow if they could

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/midlands-could-face-jobs-exodus-1777455.html

 

[mumrar]

Did anyone see alleged 'expert' Cristian Wolmar on the BBC news this morning waffling about this. His opening gambit was that neither the West and East Coast mainlines actually go anywhere near the respective coastlines.

Excuse me Mr Wolmar 'railway expert' but can I point you to these photos?

ECML near Berwick on Tweed

http://david-ross.fotopic.net/p60146331.html
The beach in the background of this shot is the West Coast of England at Hest Bank

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Did anyone see alleged 'expert' Cristian Wolmar on the BBC news this morning waffling about this. His opening gambit was that neither the West and East Coast mainlines actually go anywhere near the respective coastlines.

Excuse me Mr Wolmar 'railway expert' but can I point you to these photos?

ECML near Berwick on Tweed

http://david-ross.fotopic.net/p60146331.html
The beach in the background of this shot is the West Coast of England at Hest Bank

And can i just say - other than a very small amount of space in the North, where else? I dont see XC or NXEC trains coming through Hartlepool, Scarborough etc.
Its only on the Coast for a few minutes, if that.

 

[Metroland]

Well, apparently nobody wants to live in the Midlands - not even the majority of people who live there... :roll:



Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/midlands-could-face-jobs-exodus-1777455.html

Those sorts of surveys always make me laugh, how everyone wants to pile down to the sunny south west coast because, 'Well its nice when we go on holiday'.

But does it survive the chocolate cake test? No, if you have chocolate cake every day, it gets rather sickly and repetitive. The same with living in holiday locations!

Lesson no 1: The grass always seems greener on the other side.

I live in a seaside town in the south west and I can't wait to leave. It's dull, boring (especially out of season) there are no jobs and its impossible to get anywhere.

When I go to the Midlands its rather like revisiting civilisation and I'd really rather be back there! Don't laugh, I actually find Birmingham quite exotic compared to here!

 

[tbtc]

The ECML certainly serves a lot of the coast north of Edinburgh - the line through Burntisland etc is beautiful, plus Stonehaven etc. However, it serves very little of the English east coast (abeit the most beautiful part, though I am biased!).

However it serves a lot more than the West Coast one does - the two minute glimpse of Morcambe Bay is over far to quickly!

When I go to the Midlands its rather like revisiting civilisation and I'd really rather be back there! Don't laugh, I actually find Birmingham quite exotic compared to here!

I'm off to Birmingham on holiday this weekend - I'm not faulting the place, just using the bogus "survey" to defend Sheffield

 

[Metroland]

I reckon the clue is

'Orange claims the population map of the UK would be transformed overnight, with 81 per cent of those asked in the West Midlands and 70 per cent in the East Midlands saying they would flee to the coast or countryside, if only there was universal high-speed internet access. '

Oh yes, if only there was universal high speed access like the Orange connection I'm using now.

 

[jon0844]

build a ten track line over Welwyn

4 will do just fine.

 

[jas_sl]

I think we all have to keep reminding ourselves the main reason behind a HS2 line is: capacity, capacity, capacity.

I really don't understand why so much money has been spent on the WCML upgrade just for it to be full again in the near future but nevertheless the common-sense approach is to get the critical sections of rail relieved with a high-speed line and let the existing infrastructure server more local, regional and freight.

And since many lines and areas have claim to being needing new infrastructure they have to be prioritized and others simply have to wait especially with all the money this country has to repay on its debt.

I'll be interested to hear when HS2 Ltd report in December as the exact route options considered and why.

 

[Waverley125]

I think we all have to keep reminding ourselves the main reason behind a HS2 line is: capacity, capacity, capacity.

wrong. The main reason behind HS2 is speed, speed, speed. To reduce journey times & encourage modal shift towards rail within the UK.

While we're at it I take great exception to Leeds being described as 'small fry'. The UK's second largest financial centre after London, the Leeds City region is the second most populus in Britain with 2.9 million people.

The most logical route for a High Speed line is central, travelling along the spine of the country before taking the East Coast to Edinburgh, as a) there's nowhere to put a route along the west coast except the existing route, and b) there's nothing between Manchester & Glasgow.

Though the London-Birmingham-Manchester-Glasgow line should eventually be built, the main trust of HS2 should be a central mainline with branches e.g.

London-Milton Keynes-Nottingham-Sheffield-Leeds-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow

Milton Keynes-Coventry-Birmingham

Sheffield-Manchester-Liverpool

This would allow all the major hubs to be served, with 'gaps' such as Birmingham-Manchester-Glasgow and Manchester-Leeds to be filled in later.

 

[MCR247]

And can i just say - other than a very small amount of space in the North, where else? I dont see XC or NXEC trains coming through Hartlepool, Scarborough etc.
Its only on the Coast for a few minutes, if that.

But how many people want to go there from London half hourly? People dont want their journey times increased for an almost non existant market

 

[350401]

wrong. The main reason behind HS2 is speed, speed, speed. To reduce journey times & encourage modal shift towards rail within the UK.

While we're at it I take great exception to Leeds being described as 'small fry'. The UK's second largest financial centre after London, the Leeds City region is the second most populus in Britain with 2.9 million people.

The most logical route for a High Speed line is central, travelling along the spine of the country before taking the East Coast to Edinburgh, as a) there's nowhere to put a route along the west coast except the existing route, and b) there's nothing between Manchester & Glasgow.

Though the London-Birmingham-Manchester-Glasgow line should eventually be built, the main trust of HS2 should be a central mainline with branches e.g.

London-Milton Keynes-Nottingham-Sheffield-Leeds-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow

Milton Keynes-Coventry-Birmingham

Sheffield-Manchester-Liverpool

This would allow all the major hubs to be served, with 'gaps' such as Birmingham-Manchester-Glasgow and Manchester-Leeds to be filled in later.

Without starting an East v West Coast debate, it would be plain stupid for the first HS line to miss out Birmingham and Manchester which are the UK's 2nd and 3rd cities (in terms of population and size of economy). Yes, Sheffield, Leeds and Nottingham etc need to be served by decent links, but this should not be at the expense of Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool. As for Milton Keynes, well it is near enough London to gain minimal benefit from HS2 journey times. However it will of course benefit by gaining a vastly increased 'classic' line service when the inter-cities start running via the new line (thus freeing capacity). Up in the North-West, we have 3tph to/from London, which at peaks are nearing capacity, and the local trains are being squeezed from the WCML due to the need to run the inter-cities. We need HS2, for both speed and capacity. They should also include a station at Crewe, which looks to be where the Liverpool branch spurs off from the Manchester to Scotland branch.