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NRCoC replaced by NRCoT from 1/10/2016

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sheff1

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I'm surprised an addendum hasn't been added to the previous Conditions with reference to the new Conditions.

Indeed. Standard practice in my line of work was to leave the old Conditions on line (as people may need to refer to them when dealing with old issues) but clearly marking them as such along with the date they they were superseded and a link to the current Conditions.
 
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najaB

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If I Google NRCoC, I get the conditions valid from July 2015 on the National Rail site as my first result with nothing to say they're no longer in use.
I'm not sure exactly what point you're making - you've basically said "If I search for something I find it." If you go to NRE's website they make it clear(ish) that the NRCoT have replaced the NRCoC: link.
 

infobleep

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Indeed. Standard practice in my line of work was to leave the old Conditions on line (as people may need to refer to them when dealing with old issues) but clearly marking them as such along with the date they they were superseded and a link to the current Conditions.

I'm not sure exactly what point you're making - you've basically said "If I search for something I find it." If you go to NRE's website they make it clear(ish) that the NRCoT have replaced the NRCoC: link.
But how many people search the NRE Web Site? If I wanted to find something on this forum it is sometimes easier to use Google as Google's search is more powerful.

I suspect searching Google would find me the results more easily for the National Rail Enquiries Web Site than searching it directly but equally it will find stuff out of date if it's not removed.

The conditions are not out of date for some of course. I think updating the page itself makes perfect sense but then railways and perfect sense don't always go hand in hand.

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najaB

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But how many people search the NRE Web Site? If I wanted to find something on this forum it is sometimes easier to use Google as Google's search is more powerful.
I agree with you there. What I was saying is that if your search term is "NRCoC", then Google is going to return a link to the NRCoC, and there's nothing NRE or ATOC can do about that.

What they can, and should, do is add a disclaimer to the PDF file saying that they are no longer valid.

They have updated all the links on the site itself to the NRCoT, as far as I can see.
 

infobleep

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I agree with you there. What I was saying is that if your search term is "NRCoC", then Google is going to return a link to the NRCoC, and there's nothing NRE or ATOC can do about that.

What they can, and should, do is add a disclaimer to the PDF file saying that they are no longer valid.

They have updated all the links on the site itself to the NRCoT, as far as I can see.
If all the links are updated then the previous document isn't required but if it is then their should be a link to it. After all not all tickets were purchased after 1 October, especially season tickets.

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infobleep

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That's exactly what they have, a link to both the new and old Condtions: link.
Interestingly it says the previous conditions applied until 30 September. That gives the impression all tickets are covered by the new conditions. I thought it was only tickets purchased on or after 1 October?

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Merseysider

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Interestingly it says the previous conditions applied until 30 September. That gives the impression all tickets are covered by the new conditions. I thought it was only tickets purchased on or after 1 October?

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To quote ATOC, customers who purchased before 1st October are to be given the benefit of the new Conditions, where applicable.

There is of course a right to be treated under the previous Conditions if the ticket was purchased when they were in force, but I can't imagine too many scenarios where the customer would insist upon this.
 

Deerfold

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I agree with you there. What I was saying is that if your search term is "NRCoC", then Google is going to return a link to the NRCoC, and there's nothing NRE or ATOC can do about that.

What they can, and should, do is add a disclaimer to the PDF file saying that they are no longer valid.

They have updated all the links on the site itself to the NRCoT, as far as I can see.

But if your ticket says NRCoC why would anyone look for anything else?

And of course NRE can add a line to the top of the document explaining it's out of date. To say they can do nothing is ridiculous.
 

najaB

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And of course NRE can add a line to the top of the document explaining it's out of date. To say they can do nothing is ridiculous.
I suggest you reread my post. I said that they can't control the Google listing.
 

brizzlechris

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I suggest you reread my post. I said that they can't control the Google listing.
They could use Google Webmaster Tools to request the link be removed from Google's index and similar tools for other search engines.

They could mark the URL as not to be crawled in their robots.txt file and this would likely see the link removed from the Google index at some point in the future.

They could remove the file at the URL entirely.

They could redirect that URL to the new NRCoT.

To suggest they can do nothing is simply not true.
 

Bletchleyite

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There is of course a right to be treated under the previous Conditions if the ticket was purchased when they were in force, but I can't imagine too many scenarios where the customer would insist upon this.

Only one I can think of is "stringing out" 19(c) splits i.e. season+ticket+ticket+ticket... or whether First Class is First Class or not where timetabled not to exist, both of which are *very* niche scenarios.

Was any other change negative to the passenger? I can't think of any that were?
 

hairyhandedfool

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And then when you get your tickets via TOD they say they're valid as per the NRCoC. If I Google NRCoC, I get the conditions valid from July 2015 on the National Rail site as my first result with nothing to say they're no longer in use.

If, when you pay for your ticket, you are told it is subject to the NRCoT and are provided with a link to the NRCoT, I believe you would find it hard to then claim that the NRCoC applies instead, because part of the NRCoT says:

This document replaces the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Any reference to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage on websites, Tickets, publications etc. refers to the terms and conditions set out in this document. These Conditions apply in addition to your statutory rights.
 

ainsworth74

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If, when you pay for your ticket, you are told it is subject to the NRCoT and are provided with a link to the NRCoT, I believe you would find it hard to then claim that the NRCoC applies instead, because part of the NRCoT says:

I have never ever been told by the retailer that the ticket I'm buying is subject to the NRCoC let alone the NRCoT. You might be able to argue that with online sales where you have to tick a box but face to face or via machine? Never happened.
 

rs101

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If, when you pay for your ticket, you are told it is subject to the NRCoT and are provided with a link to the NRCoT, I believe you would find it hard to then claim that the NRCoC applies instead, because part of the NRCoT says:

However if the only reference is that the ticket says NRCoC, i think you'd find it hard to claim that the customer is supposed to know NRCoT applies.

Most 'normal' businesses would ensure that information like this is displayed prominently at point of sale.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I have never ever been told by the retailer that the ticket I'm buying is subject to the NRCoC let alone the NRCoT. You might be able to argue that with online sales where you have to tick a box but face to face or via machine? Never happened.

Every point of sale should have, at the very least, a sticker or notice on display which indicates that. I rather suspect that most, if not all, still make reference to the NRCoC, but the point here is that there should be that notice as a minimum. I haven't worked in a ticket office that doesn't have them.

However if the only reference is that the ticket says NRCoC, i think you'd find it hard to claim that the customer is supposed to know NRCoT applies....

I would accept that as fair comment, though I don't think you could claim that for an online purchase, I'd be quite surprised if the various websites haven't been updated yet.
 

Deerfold

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I would accept that as fair comment, though I don't think you could claim that for an online purchase, I'd be quite surprised if the various websites haven't been updated yet.

I bought tickets from VTEC on 8th October. The confirmation email says travel is subject to the NRCoC, though if you click on it, it takes you to the NRCoT. If you don't click there's no indication anything has changed.
 

najaB

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They could use Google Webmaster Tools to request the link be removed from Google's index and similar tools for other search engines.

They could mark the URL as not to be crawled in their robots.txt file and this would likely see the link removed from the Google index at some point in the future.
Neither of which is guaranteed to stop it being presented in search results now, today.
They could remove the file at the URL entirely.

They could redirect that URL to the new NRCoT.
As said above, they need to keep the old conditions for some time. Simply adding a note to the PDF file would solve the issue as I said in my post.
To suggest they can do nothing is simply not true.
I said there is nothing they can do to directly stop a search for a term returning a specific result, which is correct.
 

ainsworth74

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Every point of sale should have, at the very least, a sticker or notice on display which indicates that. I rather suspect that most, if not all, still make reference to the NRCoC, but the point here is that there should be that notice as a minimum. I haven't worked in a ticket office that doesn't have them.

I will have a closer look at Darlington ticket office next time I am there but I can't say I've ever noticed such a sign. Though the fact that I'm having to look for it is hardly an encouraging sign though I'd have thought! :lol:
 

Starmill

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I said there is nothing they can do to directly stop a search for a term returning a specific result, which is correct.

I think the problem is what people infer from your slightly chilly manner (informed, sophisticated, rarely amenable to correction). In thks case, it could be that this is that you defend their right to do nothing. I'm sure that isn't quite what you meant, although of course there is every possibility that nothing actually has been done!

There is such a thing as too much devils advocacy. Just a friendly thought.
 

najaB

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I'm sure that isn't quite what you meant, although of course there is every possibility that nothing actually has been done!
Indeed it is not. As I said in post #274:
What they can, and should, do is add a disclaimer to the PDF file saying that they are no longer valid.
They haven't, as far as I can see, done that yet. This would be relatively simple to do and not doing so comes across as sloppy.
 

ainsworth74

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Transport Focus have replied to an FOI request with the attached information regarding correspondence relating to the change to the NRCoT which I thought might be of interest to those on here.
 

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  • NRCoT FoI Sep 2016.docx
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  • Scanned from a Xerox Multifunction Printer.pdf
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Bletchleyite

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I will have a closer look at Darlington ticket office next time I am there but I can't say I've ever noticed such a sign. Though the fact that I'm having to look for it is hardly an encouraging sign though I'd have thought! :lol:

I'm pretty sure I have seen such stickers, I think they also contain logos of accepted cards etc.
 

Merseysider

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From the first attachment, it seems that Off Peak ticket holders can now be charged a PF if an Anytime ticket is required:

10 c): was this Condition not to be deleted? said:
No, it has been amended so that the four circumstances where a Penalty Fare can be issued are clearly stated, i.e. no ticket or permit; 1st class with Std ticket; ticket used at a time when invalid; ticket used on a TOC where it is not valid.
 

furlong

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They could be charged a PF under the old conditions anyway.

No - only the excess is payable - and later changes to NRCoC cannot retrospectively change the meaning of the rules governing Penalty Fares schemes, as acknowledged elsewhere in that correspondence.

Penalty Fares policy:

Ticket restrictions. Many types of ticket cannot be used at certain times of day, on certain days of the week or on certain trains. These ticket restrictions can be complicated, and even familiar tickets such as cheap day returns can have different restrictions on different routes.
If a passenger travels on a train on which their ticket is not valid, it is more likely that the restrictions were not properly explained to them than that they are deliberately trying to avoid paying the right fare. We believe that it is up to the train operators to make sure that each passenger understands the restrictions which apply to the ticket which they are sold.
Under rule 7, a passenger may not be charged a penalty fare if he or she has a ticket for the journey which they are making that is not valid on that train only because of a ticket restriction. In these cases, the passenger only needs to pay the excess fare, in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
 
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