NRCoT Section 14.2 query

[TC60054]

Hi all,

I've just tried using a combination of tickets (Sheffield - Derby, Derby - Tamworth, West Mids Day Ranger) onboard the 0820 from Sheffield (which doesn't call at Tamworth) under the belief that this combination is valid as per section 14.2

14.2 If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the rst station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.

I was told by the train manager that the combination wasn't valid as the train didn't stop at Tamworth and that i would have to get off at Derby. At Derby, I've quizzed the ticket office into the validity, to be told to ring National Rail, who the guy that I spoke to on the phone has seemingly had no idea what I was on about so put me through to East Midlands Trains.

I've now had to board the train behind which is going to leave me running late because seemingly no one knows the actual ruling.

Have I been trying to travel on an invalid combination or have I been told the wrong information twice now?

 

[janb]

Your tickets are valid. The staff in question need to read the NRCoT.

 

[ASharpe]

I would advise against showing all of your tickets at once for this reason, provided of course that you are certain of their validity.

Show the Sheffield to Derby ticket first, then once past Derby if asked show the Derby to Tamworth and Ranger ticket.

 

[b9_624]

The confusion might be arising because the NRCoT are fairly new. In the old NRCoC, clause 19(c) covered this: if the train didn’t stop then one of the tickets had to be either a season ticket or a rover valid for 7 days or more. I’ve attached a screenshot from the forum’s ticketing guide.

However the NRCoT seems completely unambiguous in saying that it doesn’t matter how long the multi-journey ticket is valid for (it mentions rangers which are only valid for a day). I’d guess that many guards and staff aren’t up to date which is possibly why the TM disagreed with you and made you get off.

Send an email to XC citing the relevant section of the NRCoT and they should compensate you appropriately, seen as they’ve caused you to be delayed.

 

[Elecman]

Perhaps carry a recently printed out version of Section 14 of the NRCoT when using such combinations of tickets

 

[Merseysider]

Claim delay repay/email XC inviting them to remind the TM of the new Conditions. Valid combination.

 

[bb21]

When the NRCoC became the NRCoT, the old Condition 19 was rewritten and became the new Condition 14. I doubt it was intended that such combination were to be valid but sloppy wording in the NRCoT means going by the letter, they are indeed under the new NRCoT.

Not much to see here. Easy one to miss if the guard did not run through the new NRCoT word by word as it were examined by bods on this forum.

I'd say raise a complaint with XC, and if you were 30 or more minutes late, you should be entitled to Delay Repay.

 

[RJ]

A great deal of ticket inspectors never have, and will never open a copy of the National Rail Conditions of Travel. If they don't know how to check if a ticket is valid or not, they might throw you off the train or require you to buy a simpler ticket that they understand.

The ability to check whether or not a ticket is valid is a specialist and scarce skill. There are exceptional difficulties in identifying who the staff who can do this are. National Rail does tell us that tickets are accepted on an "Any Reasonable Route" basis which by and large works - but judgement alone doesn't work with split ticketing as there are specific published rules relating to this.

Customer Services departments can struggle with finding someone who can give them accurate advice on tickets - it isn't obvious to all that the RDG or Pricing Manager will hold the information they require. It's likely they'll reject your complaint and say the ticket inspector was right.

Your Delay Repay claim is only going to be passed if they can confirm that your tickets were valid. Don't count on it!

 

[b9_624]

When the NRCoC became the NRCoT, the old Condition 19 was rewritten and became the new Condition 14. I doubt it was intended that such combination were to be valid but sloppy wording in the NRCoT means going by the letter, they are indeed under the new NRCoT.

Not much to see here. Easy one to miss if the guard did not run through the new NRCoT word by word as it were examined by bods on this forum

With all due respect I disagree with you here. The wording isn’t sloppy at all. Its explicit that Rangers, i.e. area based tickets valid for a day, are permissible to split with and have the train not stop at the boundary station. That’s not sloppiness, that’s an alteration to the terms that’s come with the new NRCoT.

Guards shouldn’t need to run through the new CoT word by word in their own time, they should be receiving training about it. If they have the authority to tell someone their ticket isn’t valid then they should have the appropriate knowledge to determine that it definitely isn’t. For me, TMs not knowing about the new conditions introduced over a year ago in October 2016 isn’t acceptable.

A great deal of ticket inspectors never have, and will never open a copy of the National Rail Conditions of Travel. If they don't know how to check if a ticket is valid or not, they might throw you off the train or require you to buy a simpler ticket that they understand.

Believe it or not, the ability to check whether or not a ticket is valid is a specialist and scarce skill. There are exceptional difficulties in identifying who the staff who can do this are. Even Customer Services departments can struggle with this.

Your Delay Repay claim is only going to be passed if they can confirm that your tickets were valid. Don't count on it!

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I don’t think it’s the responsibility of the ticket inspectors to open and go through the conditions of travel. It should be part of their training. Personally I think any TMs not knowing about the NRCoT represents a failure on the part of the company and not on that of the individual.

Regarding delay repay, yes you might have some difficulty, but keep pressing them, and quote condition 14 directly from the NRCoT. It’s not in any way ambiguous so that might do something to convince them.

 

[RJ]

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I don’t think it’s the responsibility of the ticket inspectors to open and go through the conditions of travel. It should be part of their training. Personally I think any TMs not knowing about the NRCoT represents a failure on the part of the company and not on that of the individual.

Regarding delay repay, yes you might have some difficulty, but keep pressing them, and quote condition 14 directly from the NRCoT. It’s not in any way ambiguous so that might do something to convince them.

If a customer claims something like this is valid and is quoting verse and chapter, the correct thing to do is check if possible. Or pass then investigate later, because it's impossible to know everything and the rules change from time to time. The railways have a procedure in place for this. It is an individual choice to disregard procedure and instead chuck the person off or require them to buy a new ticket - that's not the way to treat a paying customer.

 

[TUC]

Of course it's never been easier for a staff member to access the NRCoT quickly in the event of a dispute. Just a pity some staff don't do it.

 

[gray1404]

Customer held valid ticket and was thrown off a train and told there ticket was invalid. It was totally valid and XC broke their contractual agreement with you. Report what happened giving a full description of the member of staff who declared your tickets invalid. Given the good wages train managers are on I think passengers are entitled to expect them to know what is valid. If unsure or knowledge is lacking say nothing and pass it - benefit of the doubt - or don't bother performing revenue protection duties.

There are some excellent, knowledgeable and friendly staff on our rail network and its not right that situations like this can undermine the whole thing.

I would say you are entitled to compensation for the breach of contract - not delay repay. The delay repay amount is too minimal and there was no real disruption to the service.

 

[rg177]

Knowing this member off the forum, I've been digging a bit more into the incident myself.

There's a Twitter exchange from Tom (TC60054) to NRE where they say that his combination is valid, so he adds XC into the conversation and they can see the NRE response. Hilariously they then say that NRE are wrong and that they're still right.

 

[b9_624]

If your tickets are off-peak, advance, anytime or a zonal day pass then your train has to call for the combination to be valid. Only if you have a weekly, monthly, 3 monthly or annual pass/season ticket does the train not have to call. ^DA

What was said on Twitter... showing that the twitter team haven’t bothered to read the relevant section of the NRCoT either. They work on a computer, it’d have taken them 2 minutes

 

[yorkie]

Hi all,

I've just tried using a combination of tickets (Sheffield - Derby, Derby - Tamworth, West Mids Day Ranger) onboard the 0820 from Sheffield (which doesn't call at Tamworth) under the belief that this combination is valid as per section 14.2

It is valid.

I was told by the train manager that the combination wasn't valid as the train didn't stop at Tamworth and that i would have to get off at Derby.

XC Train Managers are not given sufficient training. Some of them get things wrong. I am not surprised.

At Derby, I've quizzed the ticket office into the validity, to be told to ring National Rail, who the guy that I spoke to on the phone has seemingly had no idea what I was on about so put me through to East Midlands Trains.

National Rail Enquiries helpline staff are also not given adequate training. I remain unsurprised to hear this.

I've now had to board the train behind which is going to leave me running late because seemingly no one knows the actual ruling.

Have I been trying to travel on an invalid combination or have I been told the wrong information twice now?

Your tickets were valid. If you were delayed by 30 minutes or more, you are entitled to Delay Repay compensation in my opinion.

What was said on Twitter... showing that the twitter team haven’t bothered to read the relevant section of the NRCoT either. They work on a computer, it’d have taken them 2 minutes

They are also not given sufficient training.

This is nothing unusual at all, sadly.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Absolutely shoddy treatment of TC60054. I had exactly the same last month from an EMT guard while trying to use a West Yorkshire Day Rover plus a Moorthorpe to Sheffield single on a fast train between Wakefield Westgate and Sheffield. I almost expected trouble and had a plan in my head as to what to do when my perfectly valid tickets were refused: politely agree to disagree and refuse to buy a new ticket or get off the train. All I got from EMT Customer Services was a generic apology and a vague promise that the guard would be given some training. They should be training all their staff before any ticketing changes are introduced, not over a year later on an ad-hoc basis once a slip-up is reported. I wonder how many people have been falsely accused of having invalid tickets since NRCoT was introduced? Time for some mystery shopping?

 

[yorkie]

...They should be training all their staff before any ticketing changes are introduced, not over a year later on an ad-hoc basis once a slip-up is reported...

Of course you are right it should happen, but it they will never ensure all their staff who have a responsibility for checking and/or issuing tickets are fully aware of all relevant T&Cs. It would cost far too much for the TOCs to consider it to be viable. It's not a priority for them.

Most staff who are not fully familiar with T&Cs just accept the tickets if in doubt, which I have no problem with. I also have no problem with them politely checking.

It's that minority that refuse to adhere to the correct T&Cs and also refuse to look up the correct T&Cs that are the problem, but they'll never be properly dealt with. In fact, they are sometimes promoted (as happened with the infamous one on the East Coast Main Line)

 

[LowLevel]

I would imagine in common with other revenue trained guards that we don't really get briefed on a retail brief or new conditions of carriage, they're sent out to us - unlike a safety brief we don't actually even sign for it. We do however also get all the briefs for the main TOCs whose area we share which can result in a pretty hefty chunk of reading.

Personally I try to keep myself up to speed on them but I do this by sacking off revenue for a stop or two every now and then on a long distance service (Not a pay train) and getting stuck into them. Not all guards will have the luxury of time to be able to do this and many I imagine would also not have the inclination.

 

[furlong]

If you are ever denied use of a valid ticket for bogus reasons, you should report this to the DfT as it is a breach of the company's franchise agreement. By taking on the franchise, a TOC has agreed to get this right 100% of the time. (There are no targets like "to inconvenience no more than 5% of passengers by rejecting their valid tickets".) The DfT should then write to the company to agree a plan of action to avoid any repeat. If a company isn't prepared to give all its staff (including those on gatelines and those engaged via agencies) sufficient training and access to immediate support so they are never going to refuse correct use of a valid ticket then it shouldn't have bid for the franchise in the first place.

 

[bb21]

With all due respect I disagree with you here. The wording isn’t sloppy at all. Its explicit that Rangers, i.e. area based tickets valid for a day, are permissible to split with and have the train not stop at the boundary station. That’s not sloppiness, that’s an alteration to the terms that’s come with the new NRCoT.

I am not going to end up going around in circles. I am confident that I know what I am talking about on this one. If you prefer to disagree then that is of course your choice, although I don't think you actually understood what I was saying.

Guards shouldn’t need to run through the new CoT word by word in their own time, they should be receiving training about it. If they have the authority to tell someone their ticket isn’t valid then they should have the appropriate knowledge to determine that it definitely isn’t. For me, TMs not knowing about the new conditions introduced over a year ago in October 2016 isn’t acceptable.

They should, of course. The company probably should have done more. As furlong says, you may wish to report matters like this to the DfT as the ultimate sanction.

If sufficient people bothered to complain then they will do something about it. The DfT may not be very knowledgeable, they are certainly no pushovers.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Presumably information gets passed from TOCs to staff on important matters such as when the last date to accept cheques / paper £5 notes / round £1 coins was. I wonder if disseminating that linformation was given higher priority than the changes to ticket validity that came in with NRCoT? Any guards or ticket-office staff care to comment on their experiences?

 

[janb]

Presumably information gets passed from TOCs to staff on important matters such as when the last date to accept cheques / paper £5 notes / round £1 coins was. I wonder if disseminating that linformation was given higher priority than the changes to ticket validity that came in with NRCoT? Any guards or ticket-office staff care to comment on their experiences?

Northern distributed a retail brief and the new conditions about a week before the change. They did say "not much has changed" which the less motivated might take as an invitation to ignore, but the conscientious read through them.

 

[hawk1911]

Since the NRCoT came into force I have used rail tickets from Stafford to Burton, combined with a Derbyshire Wayfarer, to get to Sheffield and beyond on many occasions. Quite a few of those involved trains which did not stop at Burton.

I've had this combination checked a few times, between Tamworth and Derby, without any problems to date. Indeed, one Cross Country train manager actually said, as he checked my tickets, "Derbyshire Wayfarer, Burton to Lichfield; yes, that's fine".

Nevertheless, when using such a combination, I do carry with me a printed copy of the relevant page of the NRCoT, as well as having a downloaded copy, of the full NRCoT, on my phone.

 

[RJ]

Since the NRCoT came into force I have used rail tickets from Stafford to Burton, combined with a Derbyshire Wayfarer, to get to Sheffield and beyond on many occasions. Quite a few of those involved trains which did not stop at Burton.

I've had this combination checked a few times, between Tamworth and Derby, without any problems to date. Indeed, one Cross Country train manager actually said, as he checked my tickets, "Derbyshire Wayfarer, Burton to Lichfield; yes, that's fine".

Nevertheless, when using such a combination, I do carry with me a printed copy of the relevant page of the NRCoT, as well as having a downloaded copy, of the full NRCoT, on my phone.

Fair play, but in this game you also need a strategy to influence the staff who won't check because they believe they know everything there is to know about tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your tickets are valid. The staff in question need to read the NRCoT.

Agreed. Perhaps the OP should consider attempting a Delay Repay claim if applicable.