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NRE omitting LIV-MAN via Crewe

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Merseysider

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I arrived at Liverpool Lime Street approx 2040 tonight, forgetting that there was no 2052 EMT departure to Manchester Piccadilly. The next fastest way to reach Manchester Piccadilly was to take the 2048 LIV-CRE 2122, then the 2132 CRE-MAN 2214.

However, when I double checked on NRE, it was showing the next journey opportunity after 2045 as the 2130 LIV-MAN 2216 TPE departure. I've attached a screenshot. It wouldn't show the journey via Crewe without inputting a via point there.

Granted, for two minutes' sake, it wasn't worth the hassle of changing at Crewe. But it got me thinking - why wasn't the journey via Crewe shown?
 

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Merseysider

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Is it a valid route?

Is it a valid connection at Crewe?
NRE does not take account of whether a route is valid or not when displaying itineraries. If the route is deemed invalid it will (should) offer a combination of fares. Besides, I'm fairly confident my ticket would have been accepted had I taken this route ;)

10 minutes at Crewe is a valid connection, as that's the minimum connection time.

Edit: I've sent a Tweet to NRE so hopefully they'll be able to shed some light on it soon.

Via Crewe, and sometimes via Wigan, are viable journey opportunities for LIV-MAN (& v.v.) in the evening or on Sundays when services are slower and less frequent. It's possible that other journeys are being suppressed.
 
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Solent&Wessex

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Via Crewe, and sometimes via Wigan, are viable journey opportunities for LIV-MAN (& v.v.) in the evening or on Sundays when services are slower and less frequent. It's possible that other journeys are being suppressed.

Just because it is viable does not make it permitted.

There are no mapped routes via Crewe or via Wigan for Liverpool to Manchester. Permitted routes are shown on maps NO and NR only.
 

Merseysider

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Just because it is viable does not make it permitted.

There are no mapped routes via Crewe or via Wigan for Liverpool to Manchester. Permitted routes are shown on maps NO and NR only.
I agree. My point was that NRE is supposed to, and normally does, show the fastest journeys regardless of route validity. Even with "Fastest trains only" selected the fastest journey wasn't shown. I haven't got time to go through the timetables but this is probably not the only case.
 

SickyNicky

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FastjP finds it.

I still think that the fastest opportunity at any given time should always be permitted, But the rail industry doesn't agree. In any case, most people would catch the 2130 direct service which arrives just two minutes later and takes 40 minutes less, as the OP says.
 
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yorkie

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When through trains are not available, ATOC claim passengers wish to take the shortest route, rather than the fastest trains. This shows how out of touch with its customers they are. Perhaps more so than any other industry I can think of!

NRE cannot be relied upon to find the quickest journeys as it is produced by a trade organisation that doesn't cater for its members' customers requirements, and who tries to work against them. Therefore I would advise using FastJP instead.
 

AlterEgo

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When through trains are not available, ATOC claim passengers wish to take the shortest route, rather than the fastest trains. This shows how out of touch with its customers they are. Perhaps more so than any other industry I can think of!

Difficult to disagree with that.

However, the problem is that the fastest train is not always on a permitted route, and the fastest train may vary by time of day, which makes the system more complex (but perversely slightly more intuitive!).
 

Bletchleyite

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FWIW, I wonder if there is some logic to say "avoid journeys with additional changes if they don't save more than N minutes", otherwise you get nonsense like changing from VT to LM at Watford Junction because it allegedly saves 2 minutes due to reduced recovery time at the end, or somesuch. In the early days, journey planners used to do this kind of nonsense all the time.
 

bb21

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I don't really see the big deal tbh.

In this particular case, the overwhelming majority of normal passengers, who NRE is aimed at, will not bother with the hassle of travelling via Crewe, and potentially missing the connection there when the next journey opportunity is much quicker and arrives at around the same time.

These days there is a whole package of other tools out there experienced passengers can use, thanks to the open data initiative. I personally use fastjp to plan my journeys where possible, as it is far more powerful from the user's perspective, and I see little reason why anyone on this forum would bother using anything else.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Has the routeing guide changed regarding the Wigan route?
I used to use that route regularly at one time and never had any problems with LIV-MAN CDRs.
It often gave a quicker route to Victoria than waiting for the hourly Chat Moss stopper (this was before the TPE direct service started).
I see the TOC sites say "No tickets are available", but NRE does offer an Off Peak Single (but no return).
 

SickyNicky

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Has the routeing guide changed regarding the Wigan route?
I used to use that route regularly at one time and never had any problems with LIV-MAN CDRs.
It often gave a quicker route to Victoria than waiting for the hourly Chat Moss stopper (this was before the TPE direct service started).
I see the TOC sites say "No tickets are available", but NRE does offer an Off Peak Single (but no return).

Not permitted via Wigan:

Code:
Leg 1   TRAIN
TP	First Transpennine Express
TP8024–1S51
Train from Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central	Trolley Service Reservations Available 1st Class Accommodation
Manchester Piccadilly	----	d. 1116
Manchester Oxford Road	a. 1118	d. 1119
Wigan North Western	a. 1143	----

Leg 2   TRAIN
NT	Northern Rail
NT0502–1F09
Train from Preston to Liverpool South Parkway	
Wigan North Western	----	d. 1150
St Helens Central	a. 1205	d. 1206
Huyton	a. 1214	d. 1215
Liverpool Lime Street	a. 1228	----

Routeing issue(s):
Not a permitted route
OUTWARD JOURNEY Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street
Mileage 40.89 (Shortest possible 30.88)
Origin Routeing Point – MANCHESTER GROUP
Terminus is a routeing point
Destination Routeing Point – LIVERPOOL GROUP
Terminus is a routeing point
Through Mapped Route
Checking G20-G34-HUY-G18
Off route at WIGAN GROUP
Not Permitted: Not traceable as mapped route.
 

maniacmartin

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NRE does not take account of whether a route is valid or not when displaying itineraries. If the route is deemed invalid it will (should) offer a combination of fares.

On the website, yes. On the mobile apps for iPhone and Android I believe no message appears saying that it's only valid with a combination of tickets. Perhaps the message appears after you press the Fares button, but I've always thought this is misleading
 

John @ home

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Has the routeing guide changed regarding the Wigan route?
Yes.

For example, the 22 July 2009 edition of the National Routeing Guide shows that travel between Liverpool Group and Manchester Group was permitted using (2009) maps LY, ML or PS.

Map LY allowed travel via Earlestown (only).

In addition to travel via Earlestown, map ML allowed Liverpool Group - (Kirkby or Huyton) - Wigan Group - (Bolton or Atherton) - Manchester Group.

In addition to travel via Earlestown, map PS allowed Liverpool Group - Hunts Cross Group - Warrington Group - Manchester Group.

There was no mapped permitted route via Crewe.
 

Bletchleyite

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Given that you could use Northern/TPE on either of the other two routes, I can't think of any possible reason for disallowing Lime St-Wigan-Manchester. Most of this kind of thing exists to prevent people using a TOC who gets almost no money for things?
 

lyndhurst25

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When the Routeing Guide was completely rewritten few years back (2013?), doubling the number of maps used, lots of perfectly reasonable routes were "accidentally" removed. Liverpool to Manchester via Wigan looks like another example of this.
 

Starmill

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Just because it is viable does not make it permitted.

One way or the other, all non-overtaken journeys must be offered to the customer.

Anyway, your logic is backward. Most people do not want to purchase a ticket and then ask what journeys they can use it on! They want to be given all of the relevant information about their journey, and then, having selected one, be sold a ticket that's appropriate. It's this kind of flawed logic that has contributed to this mess in the first place.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Anyway, your logic is backward. Most people do not want to purchase a ticket and then ask what journeys they can use it on! They want to be given all of the relevant information about their journey, and then, having selected one, be sold a ticket that's appropriate. It's this kind of flawed logic that has contributed to this mess in the first place.

Indeed, I'm getting thoroughly fed up of the "thou shalt go this way" approach the railway is taking at present. There needs to be a way to issue, on one ticket, an appropriate fare routed by whatever route the passenger wants.
 

Merseysider

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Indeed, I'm getting thoroughly fed up of the "thou shalt go this way" approach the railway is taking at present. There needs to be a way to issue, on one ticket, an appropriate fare routed by whatever route the passenger wants.
Yes.

The RG makes mention of Any Permitted tickets being valid on any route not shown in the Routeing Guide, but for which a lower priced route-specific ticket is available, but that's it.

If a passenger holds an Any Permitted ticket, there's really no good reason why the quickest journey at the time of departure isn't automatically valid. Or failing that, any reasonable route should be permitted providing it doesn't undercut any intermediate fares. What would be wrong with that?

NRE have emailed back, seemingly missing the point that all non-overtaken journeys should be shown by default, and seemingly without the help of a proofreader.

NRE said:
Hi Jake

Thanks for getting in touch with us. I understand that our website didn't display the 20:48 service from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly changing trains at Crewe.

The current functionality of our website is to show fastest journey's [sic] on valid routes. The route you've mentioned is not a valid one as you've [sic]to get two separate tickets for that journey, one from Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe, and then one from Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly.

I understand that 20:48 [sic] service does make you reach your destination 2 minutes earlier than the 21:30 departure from Liverpool Lime Street. But the 20:48 service with a change at Crewe takes 1 hour 26 minutes, whereas the 21:30 service takes only 46 minutes for the journey. Due to this the journey with a change at Crewe is not displayed on our website.

To get the 20:48 service on the website you'll have to specifically plan your journey by using the 'via' or 'change at' Crewe on the routes tab.

I've however passed on your feedback to our Customer Experience Team, so that they can look into this for you.

Thanks again for contacting us. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you've any further queries.

Regards

Preeti Tirkey
Customer Relations Team

It's not worthy of a serious complaint for the sake of 2 minutes, but I'd still like to know if there are non-overtaken journeys in the evening where gaps in service are commonplace.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Going back a bit, all the routes between Liverpool and Manchester were available on the same through ticket.
That included via LNWR, CLC, L&Y and (when it was open) Lymm.
The L&Y automatically went via Wigan, the LNWR options included Chat Moss and Wigan/St Helens.
The terminals included all those in Liverpool and Manchester.
So why are all today's open routes not covered in the standard return?
I could understand maybe TPE taking a limited view of its routes, but Northern operates all routes and should be indifferent to which one you use, even if you finish one trip on Merseyrail (replacing the L&Y leg into Liverpool).
Currently only the Chat Moss and CLC routes are valid.

If I buy a Chester-Manchester Any Permitted ticket, it is valid via Warrington (40 miles), Northwich (45) or Crewe (52).
The Liverpool-Manchester routes are LNWR (32 miles), CLC (35), L&Y (38), with the route via St Helens Central and Atherton being 40 miles.
 

Merseysider

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I sent a couple of emails to ATOC querying the lack of certain routeing permissions via Wigan or Crewe and got a response back today.
Hello Jake

Thanks for your email, and apologies for the delay in responding to you.

I understand you want us to introduce routing permissions for journeys from Liverpool Group Stations / Hooton to Manchester Group Stations / Salford Crescent / Guide Bridge / Stockport / Hazel Grove to travel via Crewe.

Unfortunately, ATOC has no authority on routing, as it is the Train Operating Companies who are responsible for the routing and fares.

Therefore, we’ve forwarded your comments to Virgin Trains and Northern for their consideration, as they operate services on the routes you mentioned.

You may also wish to contact their Customer Services directly on the details mentioned below:

...

Thanks for contacting us. I trust this information is useful.

Regards

William Maria
Customer Relations Team

Despite the Routeing Guide being hosted on ATOC's website (http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide), ATOC has no authority on routeing! :lol: :roll:
 

yorkie

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If ATOC has no authority over routeing, why did they change the permitted routes for Sheffield to London without contacting the relevant train companies? :roll:

Incidentally, I do agree they don't have any "authority" as the DfT has that, but that wasn't really the question... :|
 
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