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NSE loco-hauled sets

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Helvellyn

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The thread about what used to operate Thames Valley services pre-Turbo days has got me thinking. Under NSE there were four principal routes that saw loco-hauled services: -

  • Liverpool Street - Cambridge
  • Euston - Northampton
  • Paddington - Oxford
  • Waterloo - Exeter St Davids
How many sets operated on each route, and what were the typical formations? I know that there weren't fixed formation sets but I'd imagine that the number and types of vehicle in each set were fairly consistent.
 
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gimmea50anyday

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Generally mk2's appeared on Waterloo Exeter with 50's as traction, while Thames valley used mk1 stock with 47's and 50's that were often shared with intercity duties. upon introduction of the 165 and 166 units, and as the 50's aged they were concentrated on Waterloo Exeter until the 47/7 took over as an interim until the 159's were introduced.

Believe kings Lynn was also mk2 and dedicated 47's 547 and 587 were regulars on that line until 317's took over. Euston Northampton was in the hands of 321 emu's although 86 401 had a dedicated digram in the peaks with mk1 stock. Bristol brighton workings were often loco hauled with 33's and TC unit or mk1 stock with 50's used at weekends with mk2 borrowed from Waterloo sets

From memory anyway...
 

rf_ioliver

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This got me thinking, what were the frequencies like before the modern EMU and DMUs on these routes?

t.

Ian
 

wimbledonpete

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There was a least one working in the evening peak from Waterloo that was a 33+4TC+4VEP+4VEP. I believe it split at Basingstoke with the 33+4TC going to Yeovil and the VEPs going down the Southampton route. Presumably the VEPs would have been supplying power as well as the 33 as I'm not sure the diesel could have coped on its own?
 

Flywaver

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It was Liverpool Street - Kings Lynn. The Stratford 47s were the main machines in late 80s for NSE with decent names.. James Nightall GC,Great Eastern,County Of Norfolk,Ely Cathedral etc.. 86s were used as far as the wires at Cambridge.. 321s were introduced but were then taken over quickly by 317s as 321s weren't ideal for look back DOO monitors
 

JonathanH

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Exeter-Waterloo was typically 9 Mk2s with a class 50 at the front.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/8479031106/in/photostream

Waterloo-Salisbury was usually six coaches or sometimes a class 438 with a 33 at the front.

The nine coach takes on Waterloo to Exeter were formed
3TSO-BFK-TSO(T)-BFK-3TSO
but short formations don't appear to have been uncommon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The thread about what used to operate Thames Valley services pre-Turbo days has got me thinking. Under NSE there were four principal routes that saw loco-hauled services: -

  • Liverpool Street - Cambridge
  • Euston - Northampton
  • Paddington - Oxford
  • Waterloo - Exeter St Davids
How many sets operated on each route, and what were the typical formations? I know that there weren't fixed formation sets but I'd imagine that the number and types of vehicle in each set were fairly consistent.

When NSE was formed in 1986, the Thames Valley services were shared between Mark 1 corridor coaches and Mark 2 open vehicles. Neither fleet received refurbishment.

As the 321s arrived in 1989/90, the Cambridge and Northampton fleets which had received refurbishment replaced all of the Thames Valley stock. The Mark 1s from Northampton had the L&SE striped moquette and the Mark 2s from the Cambridge line had Intercity 80 seats which I think had been retrieved from the APT programme. The Thames Valley corridor Mark 1s went for scrap and the Mark 2s went to other parts of the country.

I think that the theory was that the formations should have been something like 3TSO-CK-BSK-FK-3TSO for the Mark 1 sets and 3TSO-FK-BSO-FK-3TSO for the Mark 2 sets but it didn't work like that.

To illustrate the variability, these are the formations I have recorded from my teenage travels in the early 1990s.

16 Aug 1990 1756 Slough to Reading
47547-4945-*4985*-7153-7165-35447-7167-13308-4913-4955-4862
Loco-2TSO-2CK-FK-CK-FK-3TSO

29 Sep 1990 1138 Reading to Newbury
47702-*5105*-4992-7213-13437-35290-4873-5039-4853
Loco-2TSO-CK-FK-BSK-3TSO

29 Sep 1990 1635 Newbury to Reading
47598-4853-5039-4873-35290-13437-7213-4992-4950-*5105*
Loco-3TSO-BSK-FK-CK-2TSO

5 Aug 1991 0709 Pangbourne to Reading
47712-13444-7232-7168-35329-7153-7213-*4990*-4854
Loco-FK-2CK-BSK-2CK-2TSO

10 Aug 1991 1620 Paddington to Reading
47710-*4854*-4990-7153-35329-7168-5222-7232
Loco-2TSO-CK-BSK-CK-TSO-CK

30 Aug 1991 1806 Paddington to Reading
47446-4945-4913-9396-13444-7158-4895-*5113*
Loco-2TSO-BSO-FK-CK-2TSO

23 Oct 1991 1806 Paddington to Reading
47581-7237-7172-9396-13437-7232-13331-*5141*
Loco-2CK-BSO-FK-CK-FK-TSO

25 Oct 1991 1258 Reading to Oxford
47423-*13474*-7190-7213-13329-9391-5024-4951
Loco-FK-2CK-FK-BSO-2TSO

11 Jan 1992 1000 Reading to Paddington
47581-5216-5220-5104-35290-13447-7235-*5136*
Loco-3TSO-BSK-FK-CK-TSO

25 Feb 1992 1756 Slough to Reading
47423-*4992*-4867-4884-13436-9409-4905-4913-4945
Loco-3TSO-FK-BSO-3TSO

22 Apr 1992 1808 Paddington to Reading
47547-7172-5085-*4876*-13435-5090-35309-7165-13331
Loco-CK-2TSO-FK-TSO-BSK-CK-FK

26 May 1992 1312 Reading to Newbury
47431-*5200*-5175-5222-35455-13444-4867-5171-5220-4910
Loco-3TSO-BSK-FK-4TSO
 

RobShipway

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Generally mk2's appeared on Waterloo Exeter with 50's as traction, while Thames valley used mk1 stock with 47's and 50's that were often shared with intercity duties. upon introduction of the 165 and 166 units, and as the 50's aged they were concentrated on Waterloo Exeter until the 47/7 took over as an interim until the 159's were introduced.

Believe kings Lynn was also mk2 and dedicated 47's 547 and 587 were regulars on that line until 317's took over. Euston Northampton was in the hands of 321 emu's although 86 401 had a dedicated digram in the peaks with mk1 stock. Bristol brighton workings were often loco hauled with 33's and TC unit or mk1 stock with 50's used at weekends with mk2 borrowed from Waterloo sets

From memory anyway...

The Brighton - Bristol workings where only twice a day, if my memory serves me correct, whereas after the introduction of the Class 158's this came more regular service through the day.
 

David Goddard

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It was Liverpool Street - Kings Lynn. The Stratford 47s were the main machines in late 80s for NSE with decent names.. James Nightall GC,Great Eastern,County Of Norfolk,Ely Cathedral etc.. 86s were used as far as the wires at Cambridge.. 321s were introduced but were then taken over quickly by 317s as 321s weren't ideal for look back DOO monitors

My typical obs at Ely from the late 1980s would have included:

47572 Ely Cathedral
47573 The LONDON STANDARD
47574 Benjamin Gimbert G.C.
47576 King's Lynn
47579 James Nightall G.C.

I remember the trains being long- as many as nine coaches (particularly "The Fenman"), which just fitted in to Ely at the time.

As Flywaver says, these handed over to Cl86s at Cambridge for the run to Liverpool Street. These were Intercity machines shared / interworked with the Norwich trains at LST.

Sadly they came to an end around 1990, with EMUs south of Cambridge, and 101s as a shuttle to King's Lynn until the wires went live in 1992, and the Fen Line went over to 317s operating through to King's Cross
 

Masboroughlad

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Were any mark 3 coaches ever in NSE livery? I remember seeing pic of one air con mk2 once but there weren't many?
 

Goatboy

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It seems very odd that the Exeter services were NINE coach rakes. Why so much capacity?
 

NSEFAN

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Goatboy said:
It seems very odd that the Exeter services were NINE coach rakes. Why so much capacity?

Presumably to compensate for the poor level of service between Exeter and Salisbury?
 

12CSVT

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Were any mark 3 coaches ever in NSE livery? I remember seeing pic of one air con mk2 once but there weren't many?

There were never any NSE Mk3s.

AFAIK the only air-con Mk2 in NSE livery was Mk2D 13575.
 

Goatboy

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Presumably to compensate for the poor level of service between Exeter and Salisbury?

I still can't imagine 9 coaches of people queuing at Waterloo to travel to Tisbury or Honiton (Most Exeter passengers would go via Paddington).
 

starrymarkb

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I still can't imagine 9 coaches of people queuing at Waterloo to travel to Tisbury or Honiton (Most Exeter passengers would go via Paddington).

Presumably they were catering for peak loads east of Salisbury. The loco hauled rakes are not exactly flexible compared with the 2 minutes it takes to attach/remove another 159 in Salisbury
 

30907

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Presumably to compensate for the poor level of service between Exeter and Salisbury?

Depends what you call "poor" - this level of service sufficed from about 1910 until the Axminster loop was reinstated a few years ago. By the time the 158s arrived, Waterloo-Salisbury was pretty much hourly.

9-on wasn't an unusually long train in those days, though in the days of 33s and Warships 8 was the norm. It was certainly needed in the peaks at the London end, and it wasn't fashionable to detach/attach en route with hauled stock so it had to run complete to Exeter.

Sorry, beaten to it!
 

AlexS

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There were never any NSE Mk3s.

AFAIK the only air-con Mk2 in NSE livery was Mk2D 13575.

There was, one. Credit to the late Dale Stewart (formerly known as basildd, a rather prolific fixer of trains when in control, and sadly missed since 2006) for this:

"Correct! The Wessex Electrics (aka 442's) were due into service for the winter 1986 timetable change but with all such things, delivery was well behind schedule. The timetable was messed about with as the REPs were being progressively withdrawn, in order to provide electrical equipment for the 442's and substitute units, reformations, hybrid sets with Class 73 one end and one REP power car the other, became the temporary norm. In order to let the good people of West Hampshire and Dorset, the worst affected by this, it was planned to have a launch in Poole on October 6th 1986, to show off the new Wessex Unit, which would be progressively introduced from the following January. Unfortunately, as the date grew closer, there was no sign of any Wessex vehicle being anywhere near ready for public demonstration and having cancelled the launch to the press a couple of times before, there was much consternation that they would have to do it again and receive much negative publicity in the process.

An answer was found in that some Mk 3 stock (albeit catering vehicles) were becoming available by being displaced from formations as the type of catering being provided on these trains was changing. Therefore, TRUK 40516, from 254017 was hurriedly taken into the Workshops and fitted with mock 442 interior and repainted into NSE livery, in the hope that no local press person would actually know the difference between this and the 442 as the Mk3 was a radical design change from the Mk 1 stock currently in use. Therefore, 40516 was transferred from Derby to Poole early morning of the 5th October UCA (under Control Arrangements) organised at divisional level, with the coach tripped to Cricklewood by an LMR loco and picked up by 73124 to go to Poole. The coach was displayed on the 6th and then early morning on the 7th, 33043 was used to return the coach to Derby, where it was repainted again.

Therefore, it became the first and last Mk 3 in Network SouthEast!

http://album.atomic-systems.com/showPic.php/23421/NSEHST.JPG"

See the link for a picture of it under transfer.
 

Helvellyn

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Were any mark 3 coaches ever in NSE livery? I remember seeing pic of one air con mk2 once but there weren't many?
Mk 3 TRUK 40516 was apparently displayed in Poole Yard in October 1986, so it seems a Mk 3 did carry NSE colours - and this would seem to be true LHCS colours rather than the more white version the 442 coaches carried.

As to the air-con Mk 2s, it was Mk 2D FK 13575 that gained NSE colours. I think it was an experiment to improve the First Class accommodation on the Waterloo-Exeter services, as InterCity had no use for these vehicles, but I think its reliability was a bit suspect.
 

dk1

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Think it was 'The Cobbler' sets also used to cover the 05.15 Birmingham to Yarmouth & 10.45 return on Summer Saturdays too.
 

jimm

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Think it was 'The Cobbler' sets also used to cover the 05.15 Birmingham to Yarmouth & 10.45 return on Summer Saturdays too.

Cobblers also provided stock for the Euston-Aberystwyth Saturday trains.

London-Oxford NSE rakes would work some Cotswold Line trains, mostly at weekends http://www.hondawanderer.com/50001_Combe_1988.htm
http://www.hondawanderer.com/50015_moreton-in-Marsh_1987_2.htm

There were also some loco-hauled peak NSE services between Paddington, Newbury and Westbury http://www.hondawanderer.com/50023_Ufton_Nervet_1990.htm

Same pool also provided rolling stock for the loco-hauled Chiltern line peak trains which ran to and from Paddington http://www.hondawanderer.com/50033_Souldern_1988.htm
 

Peter Mugridge

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There were also some loco-hauled peak NSE services between Paddington, Newbury and Westbury http://www.hondawanderer.com/50023_Ufton_Nervet_1990.htm

Same pool also provided rolling stock for the loco-hauled Chiltern line peak trains which ran to and from Paddington http://www.hondawanderer.com/50033_Souldern_1988.htm

The Newburys ran off peak and on Saturdays as well - I rode them quite a bit.

Picture of my own of one of the Chiltern diagrams ( at Marylebone ) attached... :)
 

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