NSE Rolling Stock In Manchester???

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RichmondCommu

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G'day everyone,

I took a photograph at Manchester Victoria in the early 1990's which appears to show rolling stock in the NSE livery. My interest in railways had long since finished by this time and the carriages are certainly not the focal point of the picture but I'm pretty certain that it is the NSE livery. I say this because I was commuting into London Monday to Friday by this time and so was used to NSE colours. Can anyone confirm that ex NSE rolling stock was indeed running in the North West at that time and if so why?

Any information would be gratefully received!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!
 
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Darren R

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Your eyes are not deceiving you - Network South East-liveried carriages turned up quite regularly in the North West in the early 90s. I have fond memories of travelling on loco-hauled NSE stock, but not once in Network South East Land! :lol:

From memory the cause of it was reliability issues with the still new 2nd generation DMUs (I think Pacers were the problem, but I'm not sure. No doubt someone will be along soon to give more details.) Since the 1st generation DMUs they replaced had mostly been scrapped, it resulted in a rolling stock shortage, and loco-hauled trains started appearing on some routes. Carriages in NSE livery were quite common, along with other Sector liveries. A rake consisting of carriages in various liveries could often be seen: NSE - BR blue/grey - Trans-Pennine - Inter City was not uncommon.

They were used on Manchester Victoria - Oldham - Rochdale - Man Vic - Blackburn services, along with services to Southport, Blackpool North, and Barrow-in-Furness, and even on Hope Valley stoppers for a time.
 

73001

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They appeared just about everywhere. A quick 'google' brings up pictures as far north as Kyle of Lochalsh at around the same time. I think it was just a redistribution of useful stock and a lack of time/effort to hide their origins. At least one of the Scottish one's had the red line painted blue.
 

Peter Mugridge

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A few 309s briefly made it to Manchester as well didn't they, after being withdrawn by NSE? Come to think of it, with there being some 303s as well that could have given rise to Strathclyde and NSE liveries side by side if you were very lucky...
 

Bletchleyite

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More recently there was also a Class 101 (Lsomething) running around in NSE livery for First North Western.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A few 309s briefly made it to Manchester as well didn't they, after being withdrawn by NSE? Come to think of it, with there being some 303s as well that could have given rise to Strathclyde and NSE liveries side by side if you were very lucky...

The 309s (very nice units) made it into green-stripe North West Express variant Regional Railways livery soon enough. ISTR they tended to be used on the Birmingham service, and as InterCity style units were very suited to it.
 

sprinterguy

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At least one of the Scottish one's had the red line painted blue.
That was common practice with NSE stock cascaded to the Provincial sector during the late eighties, the red stripe being replaced by light blue to better match the Provincial identity. They were a frequent sight on the North Wales Coast and Skegness loco hauled trains, to name a couple.
 

theblackwatch

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L835/840 were the NSE DMUs running in the North West, although one of them got a (sort of) repaint. The 309s have already been mentioned, and there were also some 305/4 units which migrated north during their last couple of years in service.
 

Bevan Price

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A few 309s briefly made it to Manchester as well didn't they, after being withdrawn by NSE? Come to think of it, with there being some 303s as well that could have given rise to Strathclyde and NSE liveries side by side if you were very lucky...

There were a few NSE & Strathclyde livery Class 101 dmus sent to Newton Heath, mainly (but not entirely) for use on Marple-line local services out of Mancheter Piccadilly - which also included Hope Valley stopping services. They also saw some use out of Manchester Victoria.
 

RichmondCommu

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Your eyes are not deceiving you - Network South East-liveried carriages turned up quite regularly in the North West in the early 90s. I have fond memories of travelling on loco-hauled NSE stock, but not once in Network South East Land! :lol:

Many thanks for this! Was Manchester Red Bank still open for the servicing of the rolling stock or was that all now concentrated at Longsight? The train that my wife and I caught would have been the Blackburn service so it all makes sense :)
 

Helvellyn

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It should be remembered that Provincial/Regional Railways was hit by a number of things that delayed Sprinterisation.

One of the big ones were the 155 door problems that saw the fleet grounded. Cardiff Canton got a mixed bunch of 156s transferred in (including a number straight off the production line) to cover, so local hauled trains remained longer tahn planned in the Highlands for example.

Another big one was the delays to the Class 158 programme that meant LHCS services remained as well as DMU cascades being delayed.

Add in passenger growth and Regional Railways needed some LHCS stock to be retained. This included "Club" trains in the NW from Victoria to Southport and Blackpool North as well as Inverness retaining some LHCS stock.

Network SouthEast invested in facelifting a lot of its LHCS stock, so when it was replaced by either DMUs (Western Region) or EMUs (Northampton Line and Cambridge services) it was snapped up by Provincial/Regional Railways because the stock was in better internal condition. The Inverness Mark 2s largely came from the Cambridge services (via the Western Region - even NSE cascaded in-sector) and these had received IC80 seats (as per the APT), new melamine panels and even Edward Pond murals on the end walls in some cases.

It also extended to EMUs and DMUs as others have mentioned. New electrification started with cascaded stock - Class 307s were used on Leeds-Doncaster services; Class 308s went to Birmingham Cross City then West Yorkshire services; Class 305s went to Edinburgh - North Berwick and Manchester Airport services. Some Class 305s also replaced Class 304s until the 323s arrived.
 

Taunton

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There was a Sunday evening InterCity service from Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston which I used at this time which was normally formed of NSE-liveried Mk1 hauled stock from the weekday peak Northampton-Euston service. I presume it had to be returned ECS from Euston to Northampton overnight ready for Monday morning. Both the second class, and particularly the firsts which were labelled for the "Bargain First" weekend offer of £2 extra (collected by the conductor) were significantly more comfortable than the equivalent mainstream Mk2/3 stock of the time.
 
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Darren R

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Many thanks for this! Was Manchester Red Bank still open for the servicing of the rolling stock or was that all now concentrated at Longsight? The train that my wife and I caught would have been the Blackburn service so it all makes sense :)

I haven't been able to pin down when Red Bank closed. From late 1997 the site was used as the works depot for the Victoria area resignalling - when control was passed from the remaining boxes in the area to the new Manchester North SCC adjacent to Salford Crescent. However, I think Red Bank closed a few years earlier.

The current incarnation of Manchester Victoria opened in April 1994, and I think Red Bank closed sometime after that. When the Transpennine services transferred from Victoria to Piccadilly in May 1989 I was a student at Leeds Uni and travelled home to Lancashire each weekend (with a bag full of laundry! ;)) Unfortunately the transfer of services away from the former Lanky hub took me with them, and I didn't see much of Victoria after that.

Certainly up until then, the practice continued of empty coaching stock coming down from the Red Bank direction. My recollection is that the loco-hauled services out of Victoria had ceased by the time the slimmed-down station opened in 1994.

A trawl through my spotting books of the time doesn't really help either. All but a very small number of Network South East liveried coaches were officially based at Old Oak Common, Plymouth Laira and Eastleigh. The nearest depot to Manchester that had any official allocation of NSE-liveried coaches was Liverpool Edge Hill, which only ever had a handful.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Quite a few units went North still in toothpaste colours, both diesel and electric. In West Yorkshire at least one of the Doncaster 307s never got metro livery and stayed in NSE until withdrawal. One 308 also made it to Neville Hill in NSE colours but was only used as a spares donor. NSE livery did make it to Ilkley but only in the form of replacement doors on raspberry ripple 308s!
 

Welly

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I vaguely recall riding from Manchester Victoria to Bolton in a rake of NSE liveried Mk2s behind a 31 during the early 1990s.
 

theblackwatch

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I vaguely recall riding from Manchester Victoria to Bolton in a rake of NSE liveried Mk2s behind a 31 during the early 1990s.

These were quite common until 1992 (I think) when the 'Club Trains' started using refurbished Mk.2 stock (with reupholstered seats and Regional Railways livery). Prior to that, a lot of vehicles were cast-offs, the condition of which could be described as being 'variable'. Need to dig out a few pics from that era...
 

RichmondCommu

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A trawl through my spotting books of the time doesn't really help either. All but a very small number of Network South East liveried coaches were officially based at Old Oak Common, Plymouth Laira and Eastleigh. The nearest depot to Manchester that had any official allocation of NSE-liveried coaches was Liverpool Edge Hill, which only ever had a handful.

I didn't realise that Red Bank actually had an allocation of rolling stock. I'd always assumed that the sidings were simply used to stable stock and that all maintenance took place at Longsight. Many thanks for all the information that you have been kind enough to provide :)
 

Darren R

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I didn't realise that Red Bank actually had an allocation of rolling stock. I'd always assumed that the sidings were simply used to stable stock and that all maintenance took place at Longsight. Many thanks for all the information that you have been kind enough to provide :)

Sorry, what I said was a little misleading. I don't think Red Bank was ever anything more than carriage sidings, and I can find no evidence that it had an allocation of rolling stock - not even the newspaper vans which were so heavily used in the days when Manchester's Print Works actually was a print works!

It was an official allocation of Network South East liveried coaching stock at Longsight that I looked for, to see if an answer could be gleaned as to where the carriages were maintained. Since Longsight had none, and given the relative ease of transferring stock between Manchester Victoria and Edge Hill - which did have a small allocation of NSE-liveried stock - I suspect that's where the carriages went for maintenance. (But then again, this is BR we're talking about, and possibly Western Region rolling stock to boot, so it is quite possible they went back to Old Oak Common! :lol:)
 

RichmondCommu

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Sorry, what I said was a little misleading. I don't think Red Bank was ever anything more than carriage sidings, and I can find no evidence that it had an allocation of rolling stock - not even the newspaper vans which were so heavily used in the days when Manchester's Print Works actually was a print works!

Ah yes the famous Cleethorpes - Red Bank empties! Famous because they were some of the last services to be operated by class 40's. Incidentally, whilst spending a weekend in the Hope Valley to photograph various workings my mates and I were almost taken out by a swinging door on the Red Bank empties at Edale station. A gust of wind sent the door swinging as it passed through the station. Memories!
 

Ash Bridge

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Regarding Red Bank, I seem to recall there were several rakes of mk1 coaches based at that location around the years of 1972-75 that were used primarily (I think) on mystery, sea view and other special trains such as football.

These were numbered RB1, RB2, RB3 etc, with vynyl set numbers applied to one of the windows of the guards area at each end, they were of the earlier type of mk1 (mainly of TSO type) that rode on BR1 bogies and were decidedly ropey, it was usually guaranteed that if the mystery trip had a starting point such as Victoria or any station on that side of Manchester then it would utilise a dreaded manky Red Bank set, if it was a Piccadilly starter then a far superior wcml mk1/2 electric set would be employed.
 
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AJP62

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There were a few 309s in the mid 90s. They were used on a peak hour morning New Street to Piccadilly service and return in the evening. This covered a few extra stops like Congleton and Bramhall. They ran as two units to help with any traction issues apparently.

I think a single unit sometimes covered the locals to Macclesfield I think.

From memory at least one unit was in NSE livery.
 

randyrippley

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At least one of the Anglo-Scots Motorail sets was comprised mainly of NSE Mk1's for a while. Had a Mk3 DVT on it. Saw it one day reversed - heading south through Lancaster with DVT leading, with a (as far as I can remember) class 85 sandwiched in the middle between the coaches and car carriers
 

Ash Bridge

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At least one of the Anglo-Scots Motorail sets was comprised mainly of NSE Mk1's for a while. Had a Mk3 DVT on it. Saw it one day reversed - heading south through Lancaster with DVT leading, with a (as far as I can remember) class 85 sandwiched in the middle between the coaches and car carriers

I would be really surprised if that was the case as TDM as far as I know wasn't fitted to the Class 85's, are you sure it wasn't an 86 or 87?
 

randyrippley

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I would be really surprised if that was the case as TDM as far as I know wasn't fitted to the Class 85's, are you sure it wasn't an 86 or 87?

I can remember thinking at the time it was unusual in not being an 86 or 87....if it wasn't an 85 it would have been an 81. Memory gets rusty after all these years. It would have been "turned" when running northwards by reversing at Preston and going up the Settle / Carlisle - it was during one of those periods 20+ years ago when the WCML was shut north of Lancaster every weekend.
Same weekend there was a northbound through Lancaster with a failed DVT, and a failed 47 so the front end in order was 2x31, failed 47, 87 dead in train, DVT. Dunno how it fitted into the platforms.....
 

Taunton

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I can remember thinking at the time it was unusual in not being an 86 or 87....if it wasn't an 85 it would have been an 81.
This has me puzzled too.

The Class 87 were air brake only, and I'm pretty sure the DVT were also.

Almost all Mk 1 seating coaches were vacuum only to the end, and the car carriers likewise, which meant Motorail couldn't upgrade to Mk 2.

Class 81-86 (not 87) were dual braked and did have a brake translator which handled air on one side and vacuum on the other, but I can't see how the formation could be put together.
 

Harbornite

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NSE liveried stock also occasionally appeared on services via Birmingham to Shrewsbury and the Cambrian.
 

Ash Bridge

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NSE liveried stock also occasionally appeared on services via Birmingham to Shrewsbury and the Cambrian.

Yes they did, I once travelled on a summer Saturday back in 1990 from Shrewsbury to Barmouth, 37 hauled rake of mk1 stock, were these not the 'Cobbler' sets used between Northampton and Euston on peak time weekday services?
 
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Harbornite

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Yes they did, I once travelled on a summer Saturday back in 1990 from Shrewsbury to Barmouth, 37 hauled rake of mk1 stock, were these not the 'Cobbler' sets used between Northampton and Euston on peak time weekday services?

Sadly I wasn't alive back then to see such things in person. This thread mentions that cobbler sets were used on Euston- Pwllheli services at times.

[http://rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5970]
 

Whistler40145

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I can remember in the late 1980s/early 1990s on a summer Saturday a set of NSE Mk1s and a 86 turning up at Lancaster on a Glasgow Central service.
 

Ash Bridge

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I can remember in the late 1980s/early 1990s on a summer Saturday a set of NSE Mk1s and a 86 turning up at Lancaster on a Glasgow Central service.

That's interesting, I never realised they got that far North, would that have been a summer dated holiday service from the Westcountry? I do remember one or two were used in the Preston-Barrow Regional Railways class 31 hauled rakes around the early nineties.
 
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