gordonthemoron
Established Member
Will the 6 coach trains include a sleeper coach?
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NSW Trains CAF Civity XPT replacement
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hexagon789
Veteran Member
No just seats. Either Premium in 2+1 or Economy in 2+2. Premium will be reclining.
gordonthemoron
Established Member
Well, that's exactly what I was expecting. Will hopefully be doing Sydney-Melbourne both ways in July this year
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Is sleeper not popular? If it is, it seems a bit strange that they'd downgrade the service and potentially reduce income as a result.
An overnight journey in a seat in a rattly DMU isn't an appealing prospect! The airlines must be happy.
gordonthemoron
Established Member
I think lon
I think long distance train travel isn't popular, Sydney to Melbourne XPT is 1 sleeper coach, which is used a first class during the day. One first class coach, 1 coach half first class and half buffet, and 2 second class coaches.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Firstly the new trains are bi-mode though I appreciate electric mileage osnt a huge proportion, secondly the timetable is being completely rewritten anyway - they may decide to remove the overnight runs.
Richard Scott
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Understand the XPTs were originally to be replaced in 2023 but have had a reasonable stay of execution caused by reactions to virus! I hope this is true as I also want to get down there!
43096
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Ah, the current standard excuse is being used on that project, is it? The simplest explanation is "It's CAF".
I rode the daytime XPT from Sydney to Melbourne at Easter 2009 and it was fully booked. I thought it was a comfortable ride and the meal (which we had to order then collect from the buffet car) was fine, as far as I remember. The 550 mile journey with 16 intermediate stops took 11 hours 10 minutes. The VR suburban line into Melbourne was still 5' 3" gauge then so there were no stops for the XPT after Benalla, more than two hours out. Since the gauge conversion, stops have been added at Seymour and Broadmeadows. I suppose speed is not that important as the train is never going to rival the plane in that respect. Ride quality will be important and CAF trains have not excelled themselves in Britain, although Northern Ireland Railways must be satisfied with theirs as they have gone back for more of the same type - but the routes operated are hardly comparable with Australia's.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Fainsa Sophias for an 11 hour journey? The barrel is truly being scraped here:
(Well hidden under Artists' Impressions)
(Well hidden under Artists' Impressions)
185
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I've done most routes, Brisbane, Melbourne, Dubbo & Broken Hill, lovely comfortable trains at present... but I reckon boarding a 120kph drunken kangaroo with a concrete saddle for these 9-13 hour trips will produce a smoother ride than anything CAF have built recently.
AussieJasmin
New Member
There's been *no* mention of sleeper coaches at all, no any details on what "timetable changes" are being proposed. To be honest the whole project is a wasted opportunity and reeks of pork barrelling, especially the new depot being stuck out in Dubbo, which will cause NSW Trains headaches for years, if not decades, to come.
I've been on CAF regional DMUs in Europe, and they're fine for the sort of work they do on 150-200km regional trips, but it's important to understand the difference in terminology in Australia, and especially NSW, as the meanings are totally reversed.... southern hemisphere, ya know!
Suburban services: Trains within Sydney (obvs)
Intercity services: Regional services connecting towns and cities close to Sydney, up to ~160km or so. They are mostly electrified and run on virtually identical double deck EMUs to the suburban fleet, so the only really difference is they make limited stops at key interchanges within the suburban area, but run as all-stop services (except for a handful of request stops) outside the city. There are a few diesel hauled routes too like the Southern Highlands line.
Regional services: These are "intercity" trains to Europeans. They handle the longest routes like Sydney to Brisbane, Melbourne, Casino, Armidale, Broken Hill etc., though there are a few shorter routes too like the Southern High These routes are what the New Regional Trains are being rolled out on (though they will take over the few diesel hauled Intercities too). These journeys can be up to *14 hours long*, and are way beyond anything that the CAF DMUs were designed for in terms of passenger experience and comfort. You just can't take a glorified commuter train and use it to replace an inter-state sleeper service that crosses entire time zones. No one in their right mind wants to sit on a rock hard commuter seat with a diesel engine screaming and vibrating away under their fleet for 14 hours straight.
I really feel that the way forward here was to electrify the last of the intercity routes like Southern Highlands and Kiama to Bomaderry, and then use a new loco hauled fleet on the regionals. For day trains run them with 2+2 economy, 2+1 first class based on the QR "railbed" lie-flat seat, and buffet.
For night trains go specifically for the point to point overnight market with the 2+1 coaches used as standard class, a proper en-suite cabin sleeper for first class, buffet car, and MotoRail car carriers as well. This would actually make rail travel competitive with flying, since the night is "dead" time anyway, you get a proper sleep, and also have you car with you at the end, rather than being stuck at Tullamarine with no onward transport and just a ****ty bus connection.
But nope, NSW govt just don't have *any* interest in regional rail at all. They've been wanting to axe it entirely since the 80s. The only reason it exists at all is because the Nationals are worried about loosing support in country NSW... so it stumbles along on life-support.... If more people used it, that'd mean more subsidises, so it must survive in order to burning the NSW Nationals "country credentials", yet be useless and awful enough so that no one actually uses it.
I've been on CAF regional DMUs in Europe, and they're fine for the sort of work they do on 150-200km regional trips, but it's important to understand the difference in terminology in Australia, and especially NSW, as the meanings are totally reversed.... southern hemisphere, ya know!
Suburban services: Trains within Sydney (obvs)
Intercity services: Regional services connecting towns and cities close to Sydney, up to ~160km or so. They are mostly electrified and run on virtually identical double deck EMUs to the suburban fleet, so the only really difference is they make limited stops at key interchanges within the suburban area, but run as all-stop services (except for a handful of request stops) outside the city. There are a few diesel hauled routes too like the Southern Highlands line.
Regional services: These are "intercity" trains to Europeans. They handle the longest routes like Sydney to Brisbane, Melbourne, Casino, Armidale, Broken Hill etc., though there are a few shorter routes too like the Southern High These routes are what the New Regional Trains are being rolled out on (though they will take over the few diesel hauled Intercities too). These journeys can be up to *14 hours long*, and are way beyond anything that the CAF DMUs were designed for in terms of passenger experience and comfort. You just can't take a glorified commuter train and use it to replace an inter-state sleeper service that crosses entire time zones. No one in their right mind wants to sit on a rock hard commuter seat with a diesel engine screaming and vibrating away under their fleet for 14 hours straight.
I really feel that the way forward here was to electrify the last of the intercity routes like Southern Highlands and Kiama to Bomaderry, and then use a new loco hauled fleet on the regionals. For day trains run them with 2+2 economy, 2+1 first class based on the QR "railbed" lie-flat seat, and buffet.
For night trains go specifically for the point to point overnight market with the 2+1 coaches used as standard class, a proper en-suite cabin sleeper for first class, buffet car, and MotoRail car carriers as well. This would actually make rail travel competitive with flying, since the night is "dead" time anyway, you get a proper sleep, and also have you car with you at the end, rather than being stuck at Tullamarine with no onward transport and just a ****ty bus connection.
But nope, NSW govt just don't have *any* interest in regional rail at all. They've been wanting to axe it entirely since the 80s. The only reason it exists at all is because the Nationals are worried about loosing support in country NSW... so it stumbles along on life-support.... If more people used it, that'd mean more subsidises, so it must survive in order to burning the NSW Nationals "country credentials", yet be useless and awful enough so that no one actually uses it.
Graham4405
Member
Expect to do it in an XPT then. Industrial action has delayed the introduction of the new Inter City units.
NSW government makes offer to end dispute with rail union over fleet left in storage
I'm not 100% sure this applies to the XPT replacement program, but I'm fairly certain that it hasn't happened yet...
Gag Halfrunt
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That story is about the NSW TrainLink D sets built by Hyundai Rotem, which are double decker EMUs. The Wikipedia entry has details of the dispute with the union.
NSW TrainLink D set - Wikipedia
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Yes the current union dispute is about the Hyundai Rotem trains (EMUs), not those being built by CAF for longer-distance trains (bi-modes).
I'm interested in the Sydney-Canberra service which could be ideal for the CAF sets, running on electric for the first chunk of the journey.
The current Xplorer DMU sets providing 3 round trips a day are not dissimilar to our class 158s in ambience, though with more spacious and reversible seating (plus catering).
I'm interested in the Sydney-Canberra service which could be ideal for the CAF sets, running on electric for the first chunk of the journey.
The current Xplorer DMU sets providing 3 round trips a day are not dissimilar to our class 158s in ambience, though with more spacious and reversible seating (plus catering).
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Graham4405
Member
Yeah, I thought it may have been different. NSW is quite a long way from here! I still don't think the CAF sets have entered service yet though.
Edit: As linked above (but reviewed since), not due for introduction until 2023, that's if the project is on schedule.
The NSW Government’s Regional Rail project
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I was under the impression that the new CAF sets would replace the Xplorer units which currently run to Canberra.
Graham4405
Member
The new CAF sets will replace the XPT, Xplorer and Endeavour sets. See the link in my previous post.
railfan99
Established Member
The 'VR suburban line' is irrelevant (now Metro Trains Melbourne, mainland communist Chinese owned through pretends to be from Hong Kong). That broad gauge line parallels the standard gauge line as far north as Seymour and the now closed sttaion of Mangalore before veering off to the major city of Shepparton and continuing across into NSW at Tocumwal where there's a container terminal. The gauge conversion was of the parallel broad (1600mm) track from Seymour to Wodonga, so now it's double track (standard gauge) with single track over the Murray River at the state border Victoria to NSW. Between Melbourne and Broadmeadows, the standard gauge line burrows under Footscray sttaion, and then takes a longer route through Sunshine, so XPTs take 26-30 minutes to reach it. (the suburban route has a severe grade so it was never converted to standard gauge).
That's untrue 'no one uses it'. Patronage varies markedly but some trains, including the morning Sydney - Grafton, the one to Dubbo, the once weekly to distant Broken Hill 1125km from Sydney Central and the Melbourne trains can be very busy, especially during school holidays.
Similarly trains to Canberra and the combined Armidale/Moree Northern Tablelands Express can have good patronage.
If anyone visits, NSW Train Link has excellent value Discovery Passes. For first class, the supplement per berth is a reasonable A$88 per berth:
Discovery Pass
One of the cheapest and most cost-effective ways to travel is with a Discovery Pass, providing unlimited book travel on the NSW TrainLink network.
The Narrabri - Moree section is undergoing works connected with the new Inland Rail Brisbane - Melbourne route (a project taking forever) so it's coaches north of Narrabri. Today, some routes are affected by floods (and a forthcoming train strike, as like in the UK, they're wanting higher wages).
On busier days, a seat on this route can turn over two or three times, as centres like Wagga Wagga and Albury have quite a few joining or alighting.
But you're correct: air is the mode used by most, as our Australian politicians refuse to build high speed rail, even though Sydney ahs 5.2 million and Melbourne 4.9 million, plus Canberra 400,000 and north of Sydney, Brisbane/Gold Coast/Sunshine Coast well in excess of 2.5 million, plus many other centres like Newcastle NSW (500,000), the largest worldwide coal port.
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Pakenhamtrain
Member
Plus there's broad gauge EMUs along it.
Depending on the time of year Melbourne-Sydney runs are either 5 or 7 cars.
Does anyone have any information on the progress of this project and the expected introduction of the sets that will replace the XPTs?
The website was updated 10 days ago but seems to have an ominous absence of any date!
The website was updated 10 days ago but seems to have an ominous absence of any date!
railfan99
Established Member
Australian infrastructure projects are notable for running late.
I believe it's years since the XPTs had seven cars. Six is the most I have been on in recent years, even at peak times.
Pakenhamtrain
Member
If there is a delay I wouldn't be too unhappy about it. DMUs and the SG in Victoria don't agree with each of at the moment. The track is rough as guts.
Perhaps you could point to an example in a similar country* (wide open spaces, low population density, long distances between large settlements) where such a concept has been successful (i.e. not requiring huge sums of subsidy to keep going)? I am sure this would help the Australian authorities to come to the conclusion that it would be worth investing in.
* market driven economy, thinking USA, Canada, Argentina, South Africa, New Zealand for instance.
Doesn't sound promising!
NSW train fleet three years late due to contractual dispute
The delay means passengers will be stuck with travelling on decades-old trains much longer than planned, which also poses risks to the reliability of services.
railfan99
Established Member
On XPT trips as recently as four months ago, it was notable how the track quality between Seymour and Wodonga had improved. The ride quality was good.
Pakenhamtrain
Member
It's between Seymour and Melbourne the issue. The Standard gauge VLocity fleet was pulled from service earlier this month because they were bottoming out.
I guess it's a safe bet to assume the XPTs will still be running in a year's time, then?Doesn't sound promising!
NSW train fleet three years late due to contractual dispute
The delay means passengers will be stuck with travelling on decades-old trains much longer than planned, which also poses risks to the reliability of services.www.smh.com.au
railfan99
Established Member
Yes. A lot longer than a year would be my guess.
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