Numbers on Trains

[Dai.]

Here's something thats been bugging me for a while

The numbers on trains have up to now seemed pretty random to me but, I've think I've worked it out -

in an example I'll use 150's

so I'm guessing a normal 150 would have the number 150001 (for example)

Would a 150/1 have 150101?
150/2 150201

so on so forth or am I completely wrong?
xD


Also I've noticed with DMU's (as I have 150's on the route near me so I pay more attention to them) they have numbers on the side of their trains for example
150101 has 55200 - 55400 - 55300 on the side of the units.

what are the 55200 - 55400 - 55300 numbers?


If you could help it'd be great.

thanks in advance.

 

[37401]

yup, in most but not all cases the xx4xx or xxx4xx is the sub class, not always the case but yes, for example 37401 is the 01 of the 37/4 subclass

 

[MCR247]

55200-55400-55300 are the numbers of the particular vehicle, like, say a 158 will be formed of 57797 and 52797, with the unit being 158 797

 

[starrymarkb]

The 52xxx 57xxx and 58xxx on spinters are vehicle numbers. Most ie 150246 have the vehicle numbers to match the unit number - so 150246 consists of 52246 and 57246 - as usual there are exceptions (NSE and their successor SWT) eg 159001 consists of IIRC 52873, 58718 and 57873 - the vehicle numbers following on from the class 158s - (873 for the DMS and DMC and 718 for the center car - following on from the 17 ex TPX units)

 

[MCR247]

I thought the 159/0s were built as 159s with the /1s being recent converstions when SWT gave them 170s

 

[mbonwick]

Not quite, the 159s were built as 158s but diverted to babcock who converted them before they ever entered service. This was because BR over-ordered 2 car 158s but gave no thought to 3-car.

The 159/1s are indeed made up of 158 vehicles, modified in a similar way to the /0s

 

[Dai.]

So the numbers on the side of the units say nothing about the type of vehicle it is?

Another thing I still don't understand are carriages, how do you know what they are?

Like - How do you know its Mark 1/2/3/4 and whether it's a buffet car, passenger car. etcetc.

 

[starrymarkb]

Not quite, the 159s were built as 158s but diverted to babcock who converted them before they ever entered service. This was because BR over-ordered 2 car 158s but gave no thought to 3-car.

The 159/1s are indeed made up of 158 vehicles, modified in a similar way to the /0s

Yes - NSE gained the 22 2-Car 158s in production and added 22 centre cars to the order.

 

[90019]

Like - How do you know its Mark 1/2/3/4 and whether it's a buffet car, passenger car. etcetc.

The coaching stock TOPS codes on the sides of MUs do say what each car of it is. Ie, a complete HST is all within the 4XXXX series, with the TF's being 41XXX, the TS's being 42XXX, the DMB's being 43XXX, and the TGS's are 44XXX.
The TRSB's were originally 400XX, but are now 402XX or 404XX, the TRUB's are 403XX, but these have now been converted to TRFB's (407XX), and the TRUK's were 405XX (IIRC, these have all been withdrawn/converted).


The subclasses aren't always the same as the number on the train, like FSR's 158s, which are 1587XX or 1588XX, having checked, wikipedia says they're 158/0s, but I'm sure that at least some are 158/9s.

 

[starrymarkb]

So the numbers on the side of the units say nothing about the type of vehicle it is?

Oh they do - going to the 158s the 57 veh IIRC contains the big bog and the 52 contains the small one, 58 vehicles are the built centre cars....

158/9s can be a red herring, as the FGW 1589xx sets are hybrids where a set has been split and added and other to make a 3 car set - the vehicles keep their existing numbers

 

[Lampshade]

Not quite, the 159s were built as 158s but diverted to babcock who converted them before they ever entered service. This was because BR over-ordered 2 car 158s but gave no thought to 3-car.

The 159/1s are indeed made up of 158 vehicles, modified in a similar way to the /0s

I've wondered about this... what is the difference between a 158 and a 159? From what I can gather they're just refurbished ex-TPE 158s.

 

[Dai.]

I've wondered about this... what is the difference between a 158 and a 159? From what I can gather they're just refurbished ex-TPE 158s.

159's are 3-car designed, 158's aren't.

I think that's the reasoning.

 

[Helvellyn]

159/0 units feature, among other things: -

• First Class (2+1 seating)
• Retention tank toilets
• MSL vehicle had one toilet removed and a area for the trolley fitted
• Short circuit bar, paddles and other equipment for operating over third rail
• Ability to lock the vestibule behind the leading cab out of public use for use as crew doors.

Also, see this thread for more information on how locomotives and vehicles are numbered. The Wiki links are actually quite accurate in their info!

 

[Dai.]

I'm utterly confused now.

 

[EM2]

So the numbers on the side of the units say nothing about the type of vehicle it is?

Another thing I still don't understand are carriages, how do you know what they are?

Like - How do you know its Mark 1/2/3/4 and whether it's a buffet car, passenger car. etcetc.

Do you mean can you tell just from the number? That I don't know I'm afraid.
As for Mk1 - 4, they are all completely different designs. A Mk1 looks different to a Mk2 which looks different to a Mk3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Railways_Mark_1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_4

Coaches have a designation which tells you what type it is e.g MBSO - Motor Brake Second Open RFB - Restaurant First Buffet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations

 

[Dai.]

The coaching stock TOPS codes on the sides of MUs do say what each car of it is. Ie, a complete HST is all within the 4XXXX series, with the TF's being 41XXX, the TS's being 42XXX, the DMB's being 43XXX, and the TGS's are 44XXX.
The TRSB's were originally 400XX, but are now 402XX or 404XX, the TRUB's are 403XX, but these have now been converted to TRFB's (407XX), and the TRUK's were 405XX (IIRC, these have all been withdrawn/converted).

Acronym overload D:
I' don't understand at all.

 

[90019]

Acronym overload D:
I' don't understand at all.

TF - Trailer First
TS - Trailer Second
DMB - Driving Motor Brake
TGS - Trailer Guard Second
TRSB - Trailer Restaurant Second Buffet
TRUB - Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Buffet
TRFB - Trailer Restaurant First Buffet
TRUK - Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen

 

[Lampshade]

Pretty much what he said ^^^:

HST = High Speed Train/InterCity 125/Class 253/254
TF = Trailer First - a first class HST coach
TS = Trailer Second - a standard class HST coach
DMB = Driving Motor Brake - Class 43 power car
TGS = Trailer Guard Second - a standard class HST coach with space for a Guard
TRSB = HST standard class buffet car
TRUK = HST kitchen car
TRFB = HST first class buffet car

I think hock:

 

[starrymarkb]

159/0 units feature, among other things: -

• First Class (2+1 seating)
• Retention tank toilets
• MSL vehicle had one toilet removed and a area for the trolley fitted
• Short circuit bar, paddles and other equipment for operating over third rail
• Ability to lock the vestibule behind the leading cab out of public use for use as crew doors.

Also, see this thread for more information on how locomotives and vehicles are numbered. The Wiki links are actually quite accurate in their info!

Also in a issue of LIAR around the introduction of the 159s it was claimed that the couplers were modded by NSE so as not to work with regional railways units,(159/0s have 4 step brakes as apposed to 3 on RR units) - They have since been modded back to standard sprinter (presumably to work with the Turbostars) but like the 171s the different coupling meant a new class

159s also have SDO for short platforms (ie Feniton where a 6 car set ends up parked on the crossing for the stop)

 

[Dai.]

Thank you for the help and pointers I've looked through thejunction.org.u with my new formation working skills HOWEVER!

Not all high speed trains are in this form, I know they are classed differently (im basing high speed train off a train that does 125mph+)

but I've noticed the sleeper train (night riviera) has 17175 - 12161 - 10219

scotrail sleeper has 9800 - 6704 - 10648 - 10600 - 10543

mallard 225 train fleet has 82207 - 11401 - 11301 - 11298 - 10307 -12307 - 12414 - 12415 - 12417 - 12207

virgin west coast has 82126 - 11027 - 11079 - 11048 - 10217 - 12138 - 12122 - 12011 - 12133 - 12078 - 90035

virgin crosscountry (not there anymore!?) - 82128 - 3344 - 5911 - 6138 - 6111 - 6056 - 90031

I've also noticed 45xxx appears on some charts on thejunction.org.uk

I'm going to look for the numbers and explanations of them but I just want to check with you guys as I consider a majority of you on here to be train gurus.


Cheers!

 

[David]

The subclasses aren't always the same as the number on the train, like FSR's 158s, which are 1587XX or 1588XX, having checked, wikipedia says they're 158/0s, but I'm sure that at least some are 158/9s.

If there is any 158/9s in Scotland, then Northern and WTPTE will have something to say !!!!

1587xx and 1588xx and 15895x are /0s, while 158901-10 are /9s and are for journeys in West Yorkshire (mainly).

 

[krus_aragon]

Not all high speed trains are in this form, I know they are classed differently (im basing high speed train off a train that does 125mph+)

Not quite. High Speed Train in this instance just means the ol' Intercity 125 sets, with a class 43 loco at each end.

 

[90019]

If there is any 158/9s in Scotland, then Northern and WTPTE will have something to say !!!!

1587xx and 1588xx and 15895x are /0s, while 158901-10 are /9s and are for journeys in West Yorkshire (mainly).

Must've just been me, but I'm sure I saw one with said 158/9 on it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not quite. High Speed Train in this instance just means the ol' Intercity 125 sets, with a class 43 loco at each end.

In this case yes, it refers to the IC125, which are classes 253 and 254.

IIRC, for a train to be classed as a high speed train, it has to operate at over 200kph (approx. 124.3mph).

 

[theblackwatch]

If there is any 158/9s in Scotland, then Northern and WTPTE will have something to say !!!!

1587xx and 1588xx and 15895x are /0s, while 158901-10 are /9s and are for journeys in West Yorkshire (mainly).

Must dig out my picture of 158906 I have at Edinburgh Waverley which I took in the '90s! (In case anyone wonders why it was there, it was on its way back from Glasgow Works after a visit.)

I think Dai could do with a copy of the Platform 5 Combined Volume!

 

[Dai.]

Must dig out my picture of 158906 I have at Edinburgh Waverley which I took in the '90s! (In case anyone wonders why it was there, it was on its way back from Glasgow Works after a visit.)

I think Dai could do with a copy of the Platform 5 Combined Volume!

I need the what now?
o.o

 

[Helvellyn]

I need the what now?

Published annually, though you can buy separate pocket books.

 

[Oswyntail]

And a damn fine read it is too, though a tad short on plot and characterisation